Rifle Scopes Help me decide.... NF - Kahles - Minox

[TacticalPlinker]

6.5 Creed Chassis gun - mostly hitting steel and occasional local PRS style competition...

Looking at three :
NF ATACR 5-25 F1 Mil C
KAHLES 5-25 SKMR3
Minox ZP5 TAC 5-25 MR4

I'm aware of the CA issues will earlier Kahles - it's on my radar to ponder.... But is it a deal breaker ? Will the CA cause eye strain for a day at the range ?

Thoughts on the NF / Minox when directly compared to the Kahles ?

Thanks

 

[Kickin45]

Look at the reviews on here of the Kahles 5-25. Not too good so far.
The NF is an amazing piece no doubt, but if those are your 3 choices, I’d personally jump on the Minox. Jmho

 

[diverdon]

Between the scopes you mention I would pick either the S&B or the Vortex...

Sorry the three you mentioned have failed to impress me... Though of course each will have their proponents who likely can shoot circles around me.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Between the scopes you mention I would pick either the S&B or the Vortex...

Sorry the three you mentioned have failed to impress me... Though of course each will have their proponents who likely can shoot circles around me.

What was it about the Nightforce that turned you off...?

 

[gr8fuldoug]

We've got some great deals right now on S&B's and the Minox is in stock (call for pricing)

 

[Glassaholic]

Like we typically say, with top tier glass pick the reticle you think you will benefit from the most. My favorite reticle is the MR4 because I like the Christmas tree dots, I find them less obtrusive than the solid lines of the SKMR3 but I also like the SKMR series. Yes, the K525i is getting a bad rap by some because it doesn't compare to Schmidt and TT at 25x? But when they say doesn't compare, are we talking it's "horrible" at 25x, most have said it's still more than usable, the K525i is shorter and lighter than most other scopes in its class. My preference is the Minox, the glass is superb and the FOV is generous; combine that with nice turrets and my favorite reticle (the MR4) and its a sweet deal. That being said, I am waiting for the ZCO's to hit the shelves and really hoping they live up to the marketing hype of being the best.

Also, CA will not cause eye fatigue, it is bothersome to those who see it.

 

[Jeffd]

KAHLES!

 

[m6z]

Nightforce

 

[steve123]

Minox or S&B.

 

[patriot07]

NF would be my pick. Glass isn't quite at the Minox level, but the turrets on the Minox I tried were unacceptable at that price point. Mushy and hard to enjoy at all. Also, the Minox is a 2-3 month turnaround time for warranty work if you have to send it off.

I like the mil-C just about as much as the MR4, so there's no difference to me there. And IMHO, the difference between the glass is much smaller than the difference between the turrets. I'm ignoring the Kahles because of the bad initial reviews and lack of personal experience.

Generally speaking, my experience is that the ATACR is the best overall package in this price range, including the scopes you listed and others as well, unless you really like some of the S&B reticles, in which case the S&B is about on par with it as an overall package in terms of value (maybe better).

I will finish up by saying that I think the AMG and Razor G2 are 98% as good as the scopes in this price range for 75% of the cost. Just something to think about if you're on the fence about this type of money.

 

[diverdon]

What was it about the Nightforce that turned you off...?

New Beast: turning turret in reverse directions (from previous adjustment) causes reticle to shift. If they were selling it to compete with Weaver then fine.

 

[Mooncake]

Nightforce. I own eight of them and they haven't let me down.

 

[Diver160651]

I am kinda with wjm308 -

I've sold my ATACRs 5-25 & 7-35- they are fine scopes, but I liked feature of some scopes a bit better. I have a Razor and I feel the Kahels has a bit better glass, but that really doesn't matter.. I simply really like the SKMR, forgiving parallax, parallax adjustment, turrets and the windage location and protective cap that keeps the windage accessible, but stops the barricades form adding a .5mil of wind lol. all better than my Razor, USO, NF, SB etc.

In transparency am not an S&B fan and sold my SB, for much of the reason places like Mile High discontinued them as well as I do not like the Turrets and reticles. Their glass however is hard to argue against.

So that leaves me @ TT or a new vapor startup with who knows what kind of longevity, ZCO, as the possible top dogs in my camp. I do not like the TT 4500 price nor the Tangent Theta Gen2 XR Reticle as it is outdated in my opinion. So is it ZCO and will you be the first to gamble on the companies longevity?

Just below that was the Minox and Kahels. The Minox provides 1' more FOV at min power @ 100yards, but I like the reticle better in the Kahels. The Minox I looks thru looked good, but I was unable to do a side to side comparison.

My choice came down to the Minox or Kahels.. Man, hard to go bad with anything on the market today.

 

[CSTactical]

6.5 Creed Chassis gun - mostly hitting steel and occasional local PRS style competition...

Looking at three :
NF ATACR 5-25 F1 Mil C
KAHLES 5-25 SKMR3
Minox ZP5 TAC 5-25 MR4

I'm aware of the CA issues will earlier Kahles - it's on my radar to ponder.... But is it a deal breaker ? Will the CA cause eye strain for a day at the range ?

Thoughts on the NF / Minox when directly compared to the Kahles ?

Thanks

We'd be happy to assist you, we'll have all three options available this week and can give you the pros and cons of each fantastic scope at 916-670-1103

 

[lennyo3034]

I always found the image on my Kahles to be favorable over my S&B. Sure it had a bit more CA but it also has better resolution and contrast to my eyes.

 

[Diver160651]

^ he did just say something very important. We each see something a bit differently when we look through a scope and what pleases one person may not please another.

 

[Glassaholic]

I always found the image on my Kahles to be favorable over my S&B. Sure it had a bit more CA but it also has better resolution and contrast to my eyes.

When Jeff Huber was with Kahles he shared with me that the line resolution testing they did showed the Gen III K624i could resolve finer than the Schmidt PM II 5-25 at the time, obviously the K525i has a completely different optical formula, but I've never heard of a K624i giving up resolution to other scopes in its class, only CA. If CA doesn't bother you I'm sure there's some great deals on the K624i and if you get the SKMR series reticle you're sure to get a Gen III version.

 

[Bandit31]

My votes with Minox or Nightforce. I wrote Minox off early without giving them much of a chance when I first used them simply because their warranty turn around time kind of detoured me from really wanting to put some hard use on them. Eventually I came around when I got my two new ZP5's for a complete steal and couldn't find anything close in price to keep me happy for the time being and so far so good.

Personally I find the Minox much easier to get behind than my S&B, like the turrets better on the Minox but wish the windage was capped like the NF, much prefer the Mil- C over the MR5 and MR2 I have and me being sensitive to CA, I find the Minox and NF handles CA a lot better than my S&B.

 

[SparkyHD1]

I'm a Nightforce fan, but Minox offers a first focal plane spotting scope with a reticle to match the reticle in the rifle scope. that would be an awesome combo.
your spottter is seeing everything the same as the shooter.
Check out the video on youtube
Long-range shooting with the MINOX ZP5 5-25x56 riflescope

 

[Diver160651]

I'm a Nightforce fan, but Minox offers a first focal plane spotting scope with a reticle to match the reticle in the rifle scope. that would be an awesome combo.
your spottter is seeing everything the same as the shooter.
Check out the video on youtube
Long-range shooting with the MINOX ZP5 5-25x56 riflescope

OK, I’ll bite. I don’t get your statement above in the least.

As long as the spotter and shooter are on the same unit of measure it doesn’t matter at all that the reticles are identical.... In most cases, it’s a benefit to have a different style of reticle in a decicated spotter.

 

[SparkyHD1]

OK, I’ll bite. I don’t get your statement above in the least.

As long as the spotter and shooter are on the same unit of measure it doesn’t matter at all that the reticles are identical.... In most cases, it’s a benefit to have a different style of reticle in a decicated spotter.

What's the benefit of the spotter using a different reticle?

 

[Dthomas3523]

What's the benefit of the spotter using a different reticle?

You’re not worried with clutter and fov issues like you are with the actual optic on the rifle. So you can afford to have reticles that have more information on them.

There is literally zero benefit to have the same reticle in the spotter vs optic.

If you call out .8 mil correction, it’s the same no matter which reticle everyone is using as long as it’s all Mils.

 

[Diver160651]

What's the benefit of the spotter using a different reticle?

It really depends on the person calling the shots. But often a spotter would give a come up and wind call, then index the spotter on that call. When the spotter sees the impact location, they then instantly have a complete correction call and communicated as the new total.

The whole communication path of: you missed .2r - “hold” ah, um about .5L is avoided if done properly.

Properly communicated a correction is clean and concise with the full value communicated. “Hold” even is pointless unless you need the shooter to pause.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

I like the minox reticle the best never looked thru it so I can't comment on glass, but reviews on it look good. However if you do have issues I think you are having to deal with Germany? The NF at least is here in the states should any issues arise where you need customer service

 

[SparkyHD1]

You’re not worried with clutter and fov issues like you are with the actual optic on the rifle. So you can afford to have reticles that have more information on them.

There is literally zero benefit to have the same reticle in the spotter vs optic.

If you call out .8 mil correction, it’s the same no matter which reticle everyone is using as long as it’s all Mils.

Yeah, i understand units of measure are units of measure. i just thought it would be nice to have the spotter with the same reticle. i see your point though. it really doesn't mater as long as the spotter can see the needed corrections

 

[Bandit31]

I like the minox reticle the best never looked thru it so I can't comment on glass, but reviews on it look good. However if you do have issues I think you are having to deal with Germany? The NF at least is here in the states should any issues arise where you need customer service

U.S. customers deal with Blaser USA in TX, the scopes go back to Germany for repair work which stinks because the turn around time is a generally a ways out but every time I've talked to the folks at Blaser they've been super helpful.

 

[CSTactical]

I like the minox reticle the best never looked thru it so I can't comment on glass, but reviews on it look good. However if you do have issues I think you are having to deal with Germany? The NF at least is here in the states should any issues arise where you need customer service

We're a huge Minox dealer and Minox's distributor is Blaser Rifles which are based in Texas, where a scope is shipped to in the states to go back to Germany if needed. Having a typical 6 week quote on average with it going back to Germany is two weeks longer of a typical quote you might get from Nightforce for example (actual times may vary). The good news is that these scopes very rarely need to go back for repair.

 

[Bandit31]

We're a huge Minox dealer and Minox's distributor is Blaser Rifles which are based in Texas, where a scope is shipped to in the states to go back to Germany if needed. Having a typical 6 week quote on average with it going back to Germany is two weeks longer of a typical quote you might get from Nightforce for example (actual times may vary). The good news is that these scopes very rarely need to go back for repair.

That's good to hear their lead times are coming down and hope they stay that way.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I like the minox reticle the best never looked thru it so I can't comment on glass, but reviews on it look good. However if you do have issues I think you are having to deal with Germany? The NF at least is here in the states should any issues arise where you need customer service

... Good point. And I can't stand Angela Merkel. Lol

 

[LA260]

Get a vortex bro the best warranty in the biz

 

[5RWill]

Look at the reviews on here of the Kahles 5-25. Not too good so far.
The NF is an amazing piece no doubt, but if those are your 3 choices, I’d personally jump on the Minox. Jmho

What reviews? Mason's? That's the only one i've seen that has been negative. Maybe i've been oblivious to the others? Every other review has been extremely positive that i have found. From optics snobs on FB, to local friends, to here. It isn't without fault of course but yeah i wouldn't say not too good.

I'd give Mike at CS or Jason at EuroOptic a call and ask them about the scopes mentioned.

I can speak for the drawbacks of the K525i though if these are a concern to you. FOV, DOF, and eyebox are limiting factors IMHO. Is it detrimental? Depends on what you're looking for. CA is controlled extremely well across the board in both the K318i and K525i. So in that regard i wouldn't worry about CA. FOV is small, which was a huge strength of the k624i. Should be something to note if you think that would bother you. If you like shooting at max mag eyebox is pretty tight as well. Not unbearable or anything but certainly not as comfortable as the k624i. DOF is pretty shallow to me, which is probably my largest complaint. I can deal with a tight eyebox. Resolution and contrast are wonderful though.

Between the three i'd think long and hard over the reticle first and foremost. They all have good glass, nice turrets, and admirable tracking records.

Edit
Forgot to add Kahles also doesn't come with a sunshade or objective covers. Just so you know. Not necessarily a detriment to the scope but given the price it doesn't necessarily leave a good taste in my mouth having spent that kind of money and shelling out nearly $200 more for a sunshade and Tenebraex covers.

 

[mclmm]

I was stuck deciding between the 525i, ATACR, PM2 and the Steiner Military version.

I kept hearing how Kahles may slightly be better glass quality than S&B and based my decision on that, but everything is very subjective. Everyone said to go with your gut on the scope and reticle, so I did that.

It is a hard decision when you can't go wrong with any of them. When I was asking around, someone suggested to just go to a PRS match and look through them all. No clue if that would have changed anything for me.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Ahh didn't know about blaser rifles here in the states, that's good to know.
Thx for info.
And just my .02 out of the scopes in question , if I could have any of them I think it would be the minox , that reticle rocks

 

[TacticalPlinker]

After reading all the helpful posts I initially thought I could make a clear decision based on your feedback. But now I realize that I'm going to have to either just pull the trigger and hope my choice works or try a different approach.

So that being said I'm going to take the 3.5 hour ride out to Eurooptic in PA and compare all head to head. I spoke with them on doing a comparison and they were cool with it.

Mike (CS) I appreciate you reaching out to me in this thread, if you were close to NJ I would be at your door.

So I gotta burn some gas but I hate having buyers regret moreso. I'll keep you guys updated - it won't be until probably the first of the year when I get free from work...

 

[patriot07]

I think that's very wise. I thought I knew what I liked by reading stuff online until I got a chance to try them out in person and it totally changed my perspective.

 

[CSTactical]

After reading all the helpful posts I initially thought I could make a clear decision based on your feedback. But now I realize that I'm going to have to either just pull the trigger and hope my choice works or try a different approach.

So that being said I'm going to take the 3.5 hour ride out to Eurooptic in PA and compare all head to head. I spoke with them on doing a comparison and they were cool with it.

Mike (CS) I appreciate you reaching out to me in this thread, if you were close to NJ I would be at your door.

So I gotta burn some gas but I hate having buyers regret moreso. I'll keep you guys updated - it won't be until probably the first of the year when I get free from work...

Why travel? We offer customer's a 10 day or so trial period on most scopes to check out the glass, turrets etc as long as they don't mount it up. Ship it back to us in the original condition and we'll get you into a different scope. The shipping cost back and forth is probably less than the gas you'll spend

 

[918v]

A lot of scope preferences are subjective but a lot are objective and undeniable. My main gripe with my K624 was the parallax adjustment. It felt heavy, gritty, imprecise, and unnatural per the side focus turrets I was used to. The parallax ring was sharp and hurt my fingertips. CA is not an issue that affects shooting it aiming or seeing. It does not blur out your target. It is an annoyance on a high priced scope, however. So my K624 had awesome resolution and beautiful image rendition but the CA ruined it. The turrets felt great coming down but not so great going up especially in the first rev, the one you use the most. The illumination rheostat was terrible. The reticle flickered as you turned it, garbage. No, it is not a K525, but it hints at what you’re getting into. People, not a person, people report that the K525 resolution falls off after 22-23x. It has noticeable CA, better than the K624 but any other scope controls CA better than the K624. Still has heavy to turn parallax ring. Same illumination control. And they raised the price.

I have 2 Minoxi, one an early production and one late production. The former has crispier feeling clicks and the latter more mushy, almost like it has more grease in the clicking mechanism. The former has a heavy transition from first to second rev, the latter easy. The glass is awesome, better than my Henny and S&B. The scope is easy to set up and remove parallax. The illumination is excellent, solid, precise adjustment. All the controls are solid and precise. It looks kinda plain, like a basic optic. But you cannot beat the glass for the money.

They all track well.

 

[_Windrider_]

Why travel? We offer customer's a 10 day or so trial period on most scopes to check out the glass, turrets etc as long as they don't mount it up. Ship it back to us in the original condition and we'll get you into a different scope. The shipping cost back and forth is probably less than the gas you'll spend

Send me 1 of everything.

 

[RyanM]

I had 3 SB 5-25s with H59 and am switching over to the Minox ZP5 with MR4.

I find the glass in the Minox to be slightly better but that I really could not care less about that part.

For me the Minox has a huge eye box. I found getting a full sight picture to be much easier with the Minox than the SB.

I did read about the earlier turret issues with the Minox but I quite like the turrets and prefer them over the SB as the click spacing is just a bit wider - I find them just as "clicky: as the SB. The SB DT turrets (I hate the MTC so only DT for me) were very usable and I liked them a lot but the turret housing is narrower so the larger Minox turrets also have a slight edge IMO.

NF will never be something I use as I can't stand the fact that the whole ocular housing rotates. Weird, I know, but that is me.

 

[CSTactical]

Send me 1 of everything.

I can make that happen

 

[Namekagon]

For me, it comes down to features and price. Comparing the glass quality is so difficult its almost a waste of time. Unless the best possible image is your only concern, Its far better to make the choice based on reticle preference, turret/focus styles, FOV, eyepiece focus, price, etc.

When I bought my S&B, I was on the fence between an ATACR and S&B PMII. At $2600ish vs $3100ish respectively, with very similar features, I was heavily leaning ATACR. Then S&B went on sale for $2250. At that price, decision was easy.

After buying, I compared the Schmidt to my Dad's NXS. Yes, the Schmidt was noticeably better. But not so much that I would have felt handicapped by the NXS at all. Considering that the glass difference between S&B and NXS is much greater than between ATACR and S&B and Kahles etc, buy based on features.

 

[_Windrider_]

For me, it comes down to features and price. Comparing the glass quality is so difficult its almost a waste of time. Unless the best possible image is your only concern, Its far better to make the choice based on reticle preference, turret/focus styles, FOV, eyepiece focus, price, etc.

When I bought my S&B, I was on the fence between an ATACR and S&B PMII. At $2600ish vs $3100ish respectively, with very similar features, I was heavily leaning ATACR. Then S&B went on sale for $2250. At that price, decision was easy.

After buying, I compared the Schmidt to my Dad's NXS. Yes, the Schmidt was noticeably better. But not so much that I would have felt handicapped by the NXS at all. Considering that the glass difference between S&B and NXS is much greater than between ATACR and S&B and Kahles etc, buy based on features.

The glass is all good. its the coatings that matter.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Why travel? We offer customer's a 10 day or so trial period on most scopes to check out the glass, turrets etc as long as they don't mount it up. Ship it back to us in the original condition and we'll get you into a different scope. The shipping cost back and forth is probably less than the gas you'll spend

orderly that would be a great idea but I don't feel like dropping $10,000 on Scopes just to compare. LOL

 

[CSTactical]

orderly that would be a great idea but I don't feel like dropping $10,000 on Scopes just to compare. LOL

I was just trying to help haha

 

[918v]

For me, it comes down to features and price. Comparing the glass quality is so difficult its almost a waste of time. Unless the best possible image is your only concern, Its far better to make the choice based on reticle preference, turret/focus styles, FOV, eyepiece focus, price, etc.

When I bought my S&B, I was on the fence between an ATACR and S&B PMII. At $2600ish vs $3100ish respectively, with very similar features, I was heavily leaning ATACR. Then S&B went on sale for $2250. At that price, decision was easy.

After buying, I compared the Schmidt to my Dad's NXS. Yes, the Schmidt was noticeably better. But not so much that I would have felt handicapped by the NXS at all. Considering that the glass difference between S&B and NXS is much greater than between ATACR and S&B and Kahles etc, buy based on features.

So he should get a $1000 Athlon? Cuz he won’t be handicapped by the glass and it has the same features?

Alpha scopes need to have perfectly executed features. That’s why they cost so much. Not because they have certain features but because their features are better made.

 

[Namekagon]

So he should get a $1000 Athlon? Cuz he won’t be handicapped by the glass and it has the same features?

Alpha scopes need to have perfectly executed features. That’s why they cost so much. Not because they have certain features but because their features are better made.

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been, wrote it fast. I meant he should choose from the alpha scopes based on features, because all of the alphas are good enough optically. My point about the NXS was that it was still extremely functional as a long range scope, despite not having alpha glass. That was my justification that any of the alphas were good enough optically.

 

[jwankel]

I had a similar decision last winter and went with the Minox MR4. I've been very happy with it. I preferred the MR4 reticle over the SKMR3 due to the .2 hash on the vertical vs .5 and I thought I needed a tree so I didn't consider the MIL-C at the time.

After shooting a full year of matches with the Minox MR4, I've noticed a few things. The turrets are great and I've not needed to go to the second rev so that resistance point has been a non-issue. I was a little concerned with the lack of locking turrets, but that's not been an issue, even in and out of a pack multiple times in two-day matches. The lack of numbers on the parallax means I can't just spin it to a distance and be close for that stage. I need to put a piece of tape and write some numbers for next year. Another thing is the .2 hash marks all being identical slows me down a little as I need to count sometimes for wind, movers or holdover stages. Whereas the SKMR3 and MIL-C have alternate hash marks for the .4/.6 values that might be faster. This is a bit of a guess as I've not shot either of those reticles in match conditions under a clock. I've also not needed the tree at all. There's not been very much wind on the holdover stages I've shot and with a 6xc it's been just off the edge of the plate at most, so having 2 mil in a tree hasn't mattered.

Hope that's helpful to someone.

 

[Forrest84]

I run the 318 Kahles on my smaller guns and traded my K624 kahles for a minox with MR4 ret.
loooved my K624 but I was going to upgrade to the new K525 but CS tactical hooked me up on the minox since I had been waiting for a good while on Kahles.
The minox is absolutely solid and I have no regrets. The K318 has been great on my gas guns so far.
NF is great I’m just not a fan of their retical choices compared to what others offer in that range.

 

[CSTactical]

I run the 318 Kahles on my smaller guns and traded my K624 kahles for a minox with MR4 ret.
loooved my K624 but I was going to upgrade to the new K525 but CS tactical hooked me up on the minox since I had been waiting for a good while on Kahles.
The minox is absolutely solid and I have no regrets. The K318 has been great on my gas guns so far.
NF is great I’m just not a fan of their retical choices compared to what others offer in that range.

Glad you're enjoying both your Minox and Kahles

 

[Hostile_SS]

thanks, great read. i was also looking at a NF, kahles and the S&B. think going with nf. 5/x 25 or maybe 4/16.