Rifle Scopes HELP ME! S&B 3-20 or 5-25 details in thread

[dtibbals]

So I have a new GAP 6.5CM that currently has an HDMR 3.5-21 with H59. Only had the optic on the rifle for about 200 rounds and while it is nice I really want an S&B for the GAP. So I want to order one asap before I go to a class in just over a month but having a hard time deciding. Should I go 3-20 or 5-25? Pricing is essential the same, I currently use my optic in the 8-18 range the most. I like a large eye box and can't stand an optic that is really sensitive with it's eye box. I am thinking of going with the H59 again, it is pretty great in the field but isn't the best choice for shooting groups, dot drills etc. Was leaning towards maybe the MSR reticle. I do want a reticle that works well in the field and is good at ranging.


Notes on use...mostly 600 yard range, do shoot 1100 plus in class a couple times a year and just confirmed I will have a place to shoot 1500 yards when the corn is down so plan on stretching out the 6.5CM more then I have been able to. Also will use it for some prairie dog hunts.

Thoughts guys?

Thanks for the help!

 

[K_4c]

5-25 with Klein or H2CMR. These offer all that you need...

 

[PatrickChewing]

Don't forget about the MSR! For me, the 5-25 is the way to go.

 

[dtibbals]

Yea if I don't go H59 the MSR is a solid choice. I need a reticle I can range with...personally not a big fan of mil circles...lines are easier for me to use and range with

 

[madAB]

Price being equal, I would go with the 5-25x.

 

[MikeD987]

So I have a new GAP 6.5CM that currently has an HDMR 3.5-21 with H59. Only had the optic on the rifle for about 200 rounds and while it is nice I really want an S&B for the GAP. So I want to order one asap before I go to a class in just over a month but having a hard time deciding. Should I go 3-20 or 5-25? Pricing is essential the same, I currently use my optic in the 8-18 range the most. I like a large eye box and can't stand an optic that is really sensitive with it's eye box. I am thinking of going with the H59 again, it is pretty great in the field but isn't the best choice for shooting groups, dot drills etc. Was leaning towards maybe the MSR reticle. I do want a reticle that works well in the field and is good at ranging.


Notes on use...mostly 600 yard range, do shoot 1100 plus in class a couple times a year and just confirmed I will have a place to shoot 1500 yards when the corn is down so plan on stretching out the 6.5CM more then I have been able to. Also will use it for some prairie dog hunts.

Thoughts guys?

Thanks for the help!

I literally was in the same boat like a month ago. I couldn't choose between a mag and reticle. So I took opinions from the guy who was going to instruct the class I'm going to be taking and he just kept recommending 5-25 H2CMR you won't need another. So I went with that. I even ask the guy T-rex off youtube who has 100's of youtube videos he was kind enough to answer my question and pretty much said the same thing about the 5-26. Overall I am happy with my purchase but really won't know for sure until I efficiently learn how to use it.

 

[65guys_steve]

I have an HDMR 3.5-21 with the H59 on a 6.5 Grendel, great scope and I like the reticle so much that I just bought a 5-25 S&B with a H59 reticle for my new 6.5x47.

 

[Flyboy22]

I've seen a number of people with 3-20's say they wish they had a 5-25, but never the other way around!

That said, I really like my MSR reticle so far. H2CMR is excellent as well--a bit better for wind holds and a bit harder to use for mil ranging IMO, but still just as capable.

I haven't had tons of scopes, but I will say the eyebox on the S&B is NOT forgiving. This is the one aspect of my S&B that so far I do not like. YMMV.

 

[dtibbals]

I've seen a number of people with 3-20's say they wish they had a 5-25, but never the other way around!

That said, I really like my MSR reticle so far. H2CMR is excellent as well--a bit better for wind holds and a bit harder to use for mil ranging IMO, but still just as capable.

I haven't had tons of scopes, but I will say the eyebox on the S&B is NOT forgiving. This is the one aspect of my S&B that so far I do not like. YMMV.

Which S&B do you have that is not forgiving? That is one of the reasons I have been leaning towards the 3-20 since it is supposed to be very forgiving.

 

[Flyboy22]

Which S&B do you have that is not forgiving? That is one of the reasons I have been leaning towards the 3-20 since it is supposed to be very forgiving.

I have the 5-25. You may want to compare the 2 in real life if you think this will be a big issue for you. With these high power scopes I think it's pretty important to have a stock with adjustable cheek weld in order to get the perfect cheek weld every time, which will also reduce the impact of a narrow eyebox.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Well I have both in fact 2 of the 3x20 and 1 5x25. First off, the 5x25 is bigger (and seems much bigger.) The tunneling and finicky eyebox with the 5x25 have been pretty well discussed in depth here..........do a search. Neither have been a problem for me, but hey........................... My 5x25 has the P4 Fine reticle (my favorite of all time) while one 3x20 sports the H2CMR and the other has the Klein. Between the two, I prefer the Klein (the gradients on the H2CMR seem too cluttered..........go figure?) but in the end I would rather just have the hashes of the P4F rather than the combinations. Why the different reticles, well I'm just like every other sucker trying to find something better? My opinion is that if you will be shooting more at distance (you mentioned 1500) then the 5x25 would be the better choice. If you were primarily going to use the glass up to 1000 meters then I would suggest the 3x20 because it's friendlier up close and 20X is plenty.

 

[sweet17]

i'm just about to order my first S&B scope. i'm going with the 5-25x MSR but i am concerned about a finicky eye box. i'm not planning on shooting beyond 1000 yards (usually less), but i enjoy plinking small targets...hence the choice of 5-25x. will the eye relief still be finicky if i were to dial back to 20x? thank you.

Well I have both in fact 2 of the 3x20 and 1 5x25. First off, the 5x25 is bigger (and seems much bigger.) The tunneling and finicky eyebox with the 5x25 have been pretty well discussed in depth here..........do a search. Neither have been a problem for me, but hey........................... My 5x25 has the P4 Fine reticle (my favorite of all time) while one 3x20 sports the H2CMR and the other has the Klein. Between the two, I prefer the Klein (the gradients on the H2CMR seem too cluttered..........go figure?) but in the end I would rather just have the hashes of the P4F rather than the combinations. Why the different reticles, well I'm just like every other sucker trying to find something better? My opinion is that if you will be shooting more at distance (you mentioned 1500) then the 5x25 would be the better choice. If you were primarily going to use the glass up to 1000 meters then I would suggest the 3x20 because it's friendlier up close and 20X is plenty.

 

[Flyboy22]

i'm just about to order my first S&B scope. i'm going with the 5-25x MSR but i am concerned about a finicky eye box. i'm not planning on shooting beyond 1000 yards (usually less), but i enjoy plinking small targets...hence the choice of 5-25x. will the eye relief still be finicky if i were to dial back to 20x? thank you.

Dude I'd say it's finicky at all magnifications, quite honestly. That said, after my second range trip with it, it's fairly manageable. The eyebox just forces you to put your head in the same spot, which you should be doing anyway if you are shooting precision. Given the size and weight of this scope, it's not meant to be a run and gun piece of equipment--if you have time to shoot at the ranges it's meant for, you have time to get your head in the right spot.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

i'm just about to order my first S&B scope. i'm going with the 5-25x MSR but i am concerned about a finicky eye box. i'm not planning on shooting beyond 1000 yards (usually less), but i enjoy plinking small targets...hence the choice of 5-25x. will the eye relief still be finicky if i were to dial back to 20x? thank you.

I think we're confusing terms here so I don't want to goof you up. The tunneling is at low power reduces your field of view, probably between 5 and 7 magnification so no worries at all at 20X (and really, I don't find it to be a problem but others have.) The eyebox issue relates to relief and side to side error relative to your positioning behind the glass. There have been complaints by some that the 5x25 is not very forgiving so if you have cheek weld problems or don't build a consistent set up behind the glass it might be challenging in obtaining a clear sight picture. FYI I have no concerns with either of these complaints, again if you do a search there's a crap load of discussion on the subject(s.)

 

[Flyboy22]

I think we're confusing terms here so I don't want to goof you up. The tunneling is at low power reduces your field of view, probably between 5 and 7 magnification so no worries at all at 20X (and really, I don't find it to be a problem but others have.) The eyebox issue relates to relief and side to side error relative to your positioning behind the glass. There have been complaints by some that the 5x25 is not very forgiving so if you have cheek weld problems or don't build a consistent set up behind the glass it might be challenging in obtaining a clear sight picture. FYI I have no concerns with either of these complaints, again if you do a search there's a crap load of discussion on the subject(s.)

The tunneling effect is easily mitigated by moving your head forward, if you so choose. S&B likes to advertise constant eye relief, but in reality what's happening is optimum eye relief is changing between 5 and 7 power, then remains constant up to 25. From my limited experience, it's not a big deal.

 

[sweet17]

I'm sure with use that I'll get the hang of it this is my first "expensive" scope and I don't want any surprises.

The tunneling effect is easily mitigated by moving your head forward, if you so choose. S&B likes to advertise constant eye relief, but in reality what's happening is optimum eye relief is changing between 5 and 7 power, then remains constant up to 25. From my limited experience, it's not a big deal.

 

[tylerw02]

I would try to get behind both. I've not known anybody that sold their 5-25x for a 3-20x, but I know a few folks that have sold 3-20x for 5-25x. I have the 5-25x with H2CMR and its honestly the closest thing I have found to ideal for a precision rifle. I have one on a gas gun and one on a bolt-action. I find I usually run it between 10x-16x for shooting and crank it up for spotting or small targets as needed. The tunneling basically means FOV doesn't increase between 7x down to 5x as it theoretically would, but I don't find it a big deal because I rarely use anything below 7x anyway.

On a gas gun, I do think the 3-20x may be better because a person may use a gas gun in a different way than a precision bolt-action.

 

[Darkside-Six]

5-25 hands down. they're the same price....i'd go with the higher magnification

 

[dtibbals]

So I have been doing a ton of research trying to decide between the 3-20 and 5-25 and pretty confident I am doing the 5-25 and MSR.

Found this video that is a great demonstration as to the FOV of the 5-25. Thought you guys would enjoy.

Schmidt & Bender PM II 5x25 56 field of view test - YouTube

 

[jtrax]

Using a properly fitted stock and consistent cheek weld, I do not find the eye box to be finicky at all on the Schmidt 5-25. I own quite a few in H2CMR. I do like the reticle...but I wish that a GEN II XR was still available in Schmidt 5-25.

In addition to my S&B 5-25's with H2CMR ret, I also have them with other reticles such as Klein and P4F. When shooting prone at my range at my own pace or for hunting, I prefer the P4F. Had a S&B 5-25 MSR and while I agree it is a great reticle, I could not get past the overall thickness. I sold the MSR and picked up another H2CMR.

 

[cramey74]

I was in the same dilemma as you only a few months ago. I went with the 5-25 with H2CMR, and I could not be happier. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the eye box being finicky. I have owned and been behind a bunch of different scopes and I have to say my 5-25 is as easy if not easier than any to pick up the reticle and get on target. I have a friend that has many rifles and scopes including Bushnell, Nightforce, Vortex etc.. He shot my rifle and was on the phone to Greg at Mile High the next day ordering the same thing I have with a Horus H-59. You would not regret either scope and Tylerw02 has a point about mounting it to a gas gun. As far as size there is not enough difference to talk about, so if you plan on staying above say 7X magnification I would go with the 5-25...

 

[dtibbals]

Yea I agree...I am going 5-25 but with an MSR reticle.

 

[KUSA]

Get the 3-20. The field of view is much better. The 5-25 is a bit long in the tooth anyway.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 by Fapatalk.

 

[simmyon185]

I am agree with k_4c. You go with 5-25 with Klein or H2CMR. Its good for you.

 

[ZiaHunter]

I have both with the H59 reticle and like them equally well. The 5-25x56 tunnels below 7x but is really not an issue since I am generally using at higher powers. The 3-20x50 tunnels below 4x but also not an issue. As mentioned above proper cheek weld is critical for consistent alignment with the ocular side of the scope. If I was to have one scope I would get the 5-25x56.

 

[NoLegs24]

Just get the 3-27 w/H2CMR and be done with it lol.......

 

[dtibbals]

I am surprised this thread came back up again. I started it but I ended up going with the S&B 5-25 MSR and could not be happier! It is perfect!!!!

 

[sib1948]

Glad you're happy. I have both the 3-20X & the 5-25X, both with MSR reticle and I feel the scopes are perfect for my need. No big issues with the finicky eyebox and tunneling not an issue, since I rarely dial below 10-12X.

 

[dAyLiTe]

I'm in exactly the same dilemma.
I've got a 4-16 S&B P4f, which is a really nice scope, but I want a bit more magnification.
I'm also looking at going the H59 route. Although I really think the TReMoR2 would be great for Practical Long Range shooting (once calibrated correctly), but it's useless for me as I can't use the same scope for practice with my long range 'air'-rifle on my small holding as the TReMoR2 WindDot curves are completely wrong (seems it won't work for .22lr and below).

So next came the question of 3-20 or 5-25... here's my research so far:
I'm wanting to shoot Practical Long Range competition with my AIAW .260 (200m zero), and that means targets between 200m and 1000m, which is pretty much a perfect range split for my .260, so I then took a look at the magnification that I would need in order to engage a target at 1000m with a full cross wind. i.e. using the full width (wind) of the H59 reticle when targets are at 1000m (unlikely case @ 42.8Kmh/26.5mph). In my case this is at -9.5Mil which is the bottom row of the H59 pyramid (actually -9.1Mil, but you need to see the next row to estimate the offset.

The tunnelling on the S&B's seems to follow the FOV, so min FOV needs to be considered at where the tunnelling starts. On the 3-20 it's estimated at 4x and on the 5-25 it's estimated at 7.5x, so FOV range can really only be interpolated from there upwards.

On the 3-20 that means that I need 19.5x magnification to see the full H59 reticle width (at -9.5Mil), or 20.14x to see just the -9.5Mil vertical in zero wind. So the 20x should be fine for the application of view that I want to use this scope with, as I'll always be able to see the full reticle that I need. A max zoom of 20x, I'll be able to see the full 8Mil (930m) wind range.

On the 5-25 it requires 20.85x magnification to see the H59 full reticle (at -9.5Mil), or 22.7x to see just the -9.5Mil in zero wind. At maximum magnification of 25x, I'll be able to see the -7.5Mil (900m) at the bottom of the reticle and have the full usage of the wind stadia at 5.5Mil (750m). So if you zoom past 22.7x magnification, I'm going to lose the bottom of the reticle that I need to engage targets at that distance... which sort of negates some of the point of the high magnification when I need it... although what is the percentage of targets between 850m and 1000m in competition. I almost wish that the H59 was offset 5Mil vertically similar to the H37, which would then make the 5-25 perfect. I guess I could always dial 5 mil when past 800m... which I was wanting to avoid with the H59 in the first place... or just zoom out to 21x.

*Note: the above have been 'calculated', so there might be a bit of variance compared to the real scope. (but I doubt much)

I'm not sure that I'll need the 3x rapid target acquisition with a bolt-gun, and my 4-16 has never given me any worries about not finding targets quickly... so 5x would probably also be ok. (I tried leaving my current scope at 5x for a while and really didn't notice much difference in acquisition.)

The 3-20 is 920g and the 5-25 is 1080g, and the 2-20 is 385mm long vs the 410 of the 5-25. Not a huge amount in it, but every little bit adds up I guess if you're lugging it around all day.

So not a lot in it... and it's going to come down to the application that you want to use the scope for.

 

[tylerw02]

200 yard/meter zero is kind of silly. If you go with a 100, you will never dial down, only up. I'd hate to have to keep that stuff straight. Honestly I think you're overthinking it.


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