Help me shoot bug holes @ 200

[TommyD11730]

Ok so... I have a rifle I enjoy now. Far from special in 223 caliber. With the Criterion barrel and handloads I can shoot 5 round groups @ 200Y off a rest @ .8s . I would like to cut that in half. Having explored different loads I just don't think this rifle is going to do it. So I'm thinking of assembling a new rifle in 6BR.

I have a "parts gun". A Remington 700P in 308. (Nice rifle but no where near as accurate as I desire) From that Rifle I can source the MDT chassis it sits in, the trigger tech trigger, and Midas Tac scope. I say "parts gun" as I'm skeptical that simply adding a barrel to that rifle will turn it into the shooter I'm looking for.

So I'm about to go the route of a custom action and barrel. It will be dropped in the MDT Chassis, receive the trigger and scope. Before I drop the coin I'm interested to hear opinions on my plan.

Thank you.

 

[The D]

Really really good accuracy costs $$. If you’re committed to it, buy the best barrel you can find and source the most consistent reloading components. Your choice of cartridge is a huge step in the right direction. You could also look into some .22 caliber variations of the BR case, 22gt seems to be getting a lot of shit done lately

 

[Kadams1563]

Just buy a .308 and since the holes are bigger much easier to make then all touch… lol

 

[diggler1833]

How meticulous is your handloading process? .8" at 200 is pretty excellent if you can do that frequently.

If you're trying to get benchrest/f-class accuracy, then you'll have to load at that level of anal retentiveness...that is why I ask. It isn't to question you or your process like you're an idiot.

Regarding only needing a new barrel: I took an FN SPR and only added a Krieger barrel to it chambered in 6.5x47L. I found a range of charge weights that gave me groups (5 shots) ranging from .253" to .327". I simply picked a charge weight between the two and shot a .311". Took that load to 385 yards (furthest I can shoot safely from my back porch) and shot a .34 MOA group for another 5 rounds (was 1.37" CTC). It has repeated that level of accuracy at 250 and 300 as well.

^ I don't have fancy rifles, and sure don't have state-of-the-art reloading equipment. However I'm about as retentive as they get when it comes to reloading.

 

[TommyD11730]

Definitely easier to see bad groups with bigger calibers without a spotting scope.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

If only out to 200, I'd consider running a slow twist with lighter bullets and poaching load data from the SR BR guys on accurateshooter. Otherwise, 8 twist works fine with the bullets you can push in 6BR. Whatever you pick I would stay with a standard 237.

 

[DLS]

I might suggest you watch Hornady’s podcasts on group sizes…both of them…
might save you some money

 

[M4orturnate]

223 is a inherently accurate round. You should be able to get cloverleafs with any decent barrel and components. Have you tried any seating depth test? I also shoot a br. I run a 7.5 twist hawk hill barrel and it shoots good but i dont think the accuracy is any easier to find then 223. What bullets are you using? Powder?

 

[MikeinTexas]

So what does it do @ 100? If you can do 0.4” that’s great! No one but a bench rest guy is gonna complain about a .4” group.

 

[The D]

Just buy a .308 and since the holes are bigger much easier to make then all touch… lol

This is a tongue-in-cheek response but there’s some truth to it, op. 30br has some impressive results under its belt

 

[TommyD11730]

How meticulous is your handloading process? .8" at 200 is pretty excellent if you can do that frequently.

If you're trying to get benchrest/f-class accuracy, then you'll have to load at that level of anal retentiveness...that is why I ask. It isn't to question you or your process like you're an idiot.

Regarding only needing a new barrel: I took an FN SPR and only added a Krieger barrel to it chambered in 6.5x47L. I found a range of charge weights that gave me groups (5 shots) ranging from .253" to .327". I simply picked a charge weight between the two and shot a .311". Took that load to 385 yards (furthest I can shoot safely from my back porch) and shot a .34 MOA group for another 5 rounds (was 1.37" CTC). It has repeated that level of accuracy at 250 and 300 as well.

^ I don't have fancy rifles, and sure don't have state-of-the-art reloading equipment. However I'm about as retentive as they get when it comes to reloading.

Thats an EXCELLANT POST!!
I think Im working pretty hard in the reloading room. I probably don't have the latest and greatest equipment but maybe I make up for it with hard work (lol). I did just pickup a FX120 scale so I pretty confident on my drops. Brass prep is always a good time and I do my best to get good repeatability. I guess I play the proof is in the pudding game so I like to try new things and take nothing as gospel.

Funny about the barrel... I had thought about buying a Remage 6BR piece and giving it a try. It's the least expensive route to try and if I dont bugger my original Remington piece I could always restore that rife back to factory and have the Remage barrel for a new custom action. However I think there is a big difference between your Krieger and a Remage piece.

Thanks for your input!

 

[TommyD11730]

If only out to 200, I'd consider running a slow twist with lighter bullets and poaching load data from the SR BR guys on accurateshooter. Otherwise, 8 twist works fine with the bullets you can push in 6BR. Whatever you pick I would stay with a standard 237.

The 6BR page seems to favor light FB seeds for 200Y range. I do shoot at sea level and worry that the winds are going to push them aroud some. In general its normally blowing no less then 10MPH any given day here.

 

[TommyD11730]

I might suggest you watch Hornady’s podcasts on group sizes…both of them…
might save you some money

I started watching the 1st one. Then I remembered what Hornady did to there employees during COVID. So, anything Hornady can go FO going forward for me.

 

[TommyD11730]

223 is a inherently accurate round. You should be able to get cloverleafs with any decent barrel and components. Have you tried any seating depth test? I also shoot a br. I run a 7.5 twist hawk hill barrel and it shoots good but i dont think the accuracy is any easier to find then 223. What bullets are you using? Powder?

I have 1 pet load (80.5 FB Bergers over 23.7 grains of Varget.
That being said I have experimented with Sierra 69,77 and 80's. Also the 77 OTM Bergers.
Yes, I have been from 0 to all over the lands.

 

[TommyD11730]

So what does it do @ 100? If you can do 0.4” that’s great! No one but a bench rest guy is gonna complain about a .4” group.

@ 100Y the rifle shoot .3"s
Accuracy is addicting I'm finding. Up till a few years back all I shot was milsurp. I looked at the benchrest guys and said "gee lets see who can set their rifle up in the same exact spot via a rest and cry if it doesn't shoot holes through holes". Funny cause here I am now. =)

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

The 6BR page seems to favor light FB seeds for 200Y range. I do shoot at sea level and worry that the winds are going to push them aroud some. In general its normally blowing no less then 10MPH any given day here.

IBS posts equipment lists with the results. Lots of 60-70 gn used at 100 and 200. If you ever want to shoot further, 103s seem to have lead the way the past couple years.

Either way, you're going to need a good rest and wind flags to agg like you're wanting. Group winners this year agged under .2 MOA over 5 targets.

 

[acudaowner]

lots of praying , lots of practicing , and a whole lot of patients best of luck .

 

[TommyD11730]

IBS posts equipment lists with the results. Lots of 60-70 gn used at 100 and 200. If you ever want to shoot further, 103s seem to have lead the way the past couple years.

Either way, you're going to need a good rest and wind flags to agg like you're wanting. Group winners this year agged under .2 MOA over 5 targets.

.2 @ 200Y is damn impressive! I would be thrilled to shoot groups double that size @ 200.
I did pickup and start using a Bald Eagle rest. I like it.
As for wind flags... I do attach streamers or the likes to my target board... I know, it's not the same but its better then nothing.

 

[TommyD11730]

lots of praying , lots of practicing , and a whole lot of patients best of luck .

Nice MOPAR =)

 

[spife7980]

The issue with a factory rem 700 and a br case is the small rifle primers of the case and the large diameter firing pin of the bolt. You’ll likely get pierced primers.

 

[Chickentoast]

If you've got 0.3 @ 100, I think you should have 0.5 @ 200. If you can get 1 or 2 groups out of 5 in the ~0.5 range, suggest just changing small things rather than kicking the barrel or cartridge to the curb.

 

[TommyD11730]

The issue with a factory rem 700 and a br case is the small rifle primers of the case and the large diameter firing pin of the bolt. You’ll likely get pierced primers.

Excellent point!!

 

[TommyD11730]

If you want to shoot bugholes at short range a Shilen 14 twist .223 shooting Berger 52 or 55 grain FBs would easily do it. Also a 12 twist 6 BR would be great with Berger 80 grain FBs but you can't find these bullets right now. An alternative is Bart's 80 grain Dominators. I've had good luck with X Caliber 6BR barrels. They have sales just about every holiday so you should be able to pick up a Rem-Age barrel for under $400.

If you decide to go custom action, and just shoot off the bench, you might consider a RBLP single shot action to feed the BR cartridge. It makes it easy to toss a new cartridge in. NSS has TL3s in the configuration usually in stock. Otherwise, MDT makes a BR magazine for repeaters that works great. I have a 6 BRA and it feeds just fine.

Dominator 80 grain boattail

The 80 gr Dominator Boattail is a 7/9 double radius bullet with an .060 meplat. This bullet is the brain-child of Dean and Brett Stroud who were looking for something that would work with their 6MM...

bartsbullets.weebly.com

I shoot for fun mainly at 100 yards to try for small 5 shot groups. I've shot quite a few 5 groups in the .0s at 100 yards with the above combination so a .5" group at 200 shouldn't be too much of a stretch in calm weather.

14 Twist .223 shooting Berger 55 FBs at 100 yards:

View attachment 8037365
X-Caliber 12 Twist shooting Berger 80 FBs at 100 yards:

View attachment 8037367

Is that a 69 Shelby on the Bumper? I got a ride in a 69 GT350 back in the Day... AC.. all the appointments.. It was Shelbys land barge compared to the 66 model. I believe the owner sold it and moved on to a 71 Boss 351. That car could haul the mail!

But anyways... if I told you I'm shooting in a Savage action with a Jart trigger would you stick to your guns RE the light FBB? =) Don't get me wrong.. I "like" my rifle. However trying to stay on target and run the bolt is an exercise in futility. The idea of at least trying a 14 twist is an interesting option. Im guessing the light FB Bergers will probably shoot poor in the current 1-7 Criterion? Or if not poor less accurately then the 80.5s I'm shooting now.
Berger also makes a VLD in the 80ish grain department I have not tried. Possibly they might shoot a little better vs the 80.5s FBTs.

You gave me something to chew on, thats for sure. Also I may explore another optic. I like my Midas, again don't get me wrong but for shooting bug holes I would think magnification better then 25X would be helpful. Thats another can of worms however!

 

[brianf]

not sure if i missed it but to shoot "that small" CONSISTENTLY, you need more than a bipod and bag

proper front and rear rests
proper bag riding stock not a chassis with a bag rider
flat base bullets most likely custom hand made
6ppc if you want to be competitive

short range BR and meticulous reloading dont go hand in hand lol...100 yard BR guys volume dump at the range...no scale

 

[TommyD11730]

not sure if i missed it but to shoot "that small" CONSISTENTLY, you need more than a bipod and bag

proper front and rear rests
proper bag riding stock not a chassis with a bag rider
flat base bullets most likely custom hand made
6ppc if you want to be competitive

short range BR and meticulous reloading dont go hand in hand lol...100 yard BR guys volume dump at the range...no scale

I did mention I'm shooting off a Bald Eagle rest... not sure why you mentioned a bipod. Maybe you didn't miss it as it's not nearly as good as some other rests.

 

[brianf]

I did mention I'm shooting off a Bald Eagle rest... not sure why you mentioned a bipod. Maybe you didn't miss it as it's not nearly as good as some other rests.

missed it as usual.. moron lol

 

[Chickentoast]

Is that a 69 Shelby on the Bumper? I got a ride in a 69 GT350 back in the Day... AC.. all the appointments.. It was Shelbys land barge compared to the 66 model. I believe the owner sold it and moved on to a 71 Boss 351. That car could haul the mail!

But anyways... if I told you I'm shooting in a Savage action with a Jart trigger would you stick to your guns RE the light FBB? =) Don't get me wrong.. I "like" my rifle. However trying to stay on target and run the bolt is an exercise in futility. The idea of at least trying a 14 twist is an interesting option. Im guessing the light FB Bergers will probably shoot poor in the current 1-7 Criterion? Or if not poor less accurately then the 80.5s I'm shooting now.
Berger also makes a VLD in the 80ish grain department I have not tried. Possibly they might shoot a little better vs the 80.5s FBTs.

You gave me something to chew on, thats for sure. Also I may explore another optic. I like my Midas, again don't get me wrong but for shooting bug holes I would think magnification better then 25X would be helpful. Thats another can of worms however!

My 223 bolt is a Savage as well, Stealth Evolution. First thing that cut the groups from 0.75 to 0.5 was to get rid of the trigger blade. Second was to change the barrel from the stock 20" to a 26" Shilen ratchet 7.5 super duper bell and whistle grade with no threads or brake, and a Rifle Basix trigger, which cut the groups in half again. Finally, I upgraded from Athlon Midas to a G3, which shaved a bit more at longer distances. I'm shooting 80 eldm's @ 2.5 coal over n540. At 200, I'm happy around 0.3-0.4" off of a sand filled front bag and popcorn filled ski sock for a squeeze.

 

[264win]

A bullet like the SMK and match primers may very well improve your current 223. But your choice of the 6mm br is great choice to chase accuracy.

 

[Buzzinga]

Right now your plan seems to be half PRS style and half BR style. A jack of all trades, if you will. If you want to shoot BR groups, don't build a PRS rifle--Build a BR gun. Reality is you could build a great BR rifle for much less than a typical PRS rifle--cheaper stock, scope, rings, etc.

1. Get a proper BR action.
2. Get a top shelf barrel such as Bartlein or Krieger and have a gunsmith who understands and hopefully shoots BR competition chamber it for you.
3. Get a trigger that will go down to an oz or two.
4. Get a proper BR stock, check out McMillan for an easy answer.
5. Get a scope around 40x with fine cross hairs.
6. Dump your powder, don't weigh
7. Read a few books written by BR shooters. Ratigan and Boyer are two names that come to mind.

EDIT TO ADD: And for the love of God, get wind flags!!!

 

[TommyD11730]

Right now your plan seems to be half PRS style and half BR style. A jack of all trades, if you will. If you want to shoot BR groups, don't build a PRS rifle--Build a BR gun. Reality is you could build a great BR rifle for much less than a typical PRS rifle--cheaper stock, scope, rings, etc.

1. Get a proper BR action.
2. Get a top shelf barrel such as Bartlein or Krieger and have a gunsmith who understands and hopefully shoots BR competition chamber it for you.
3. Get a trigger that will go down to an oz or two.
4. Get a proper BR stock, check out McMillan for an easy answer.
5. Get a scope around 40x with fine cross hairs.
6. Dump your powder, don't weigh
7. Read a few books written by BR shooters. Ratigan and Boyer are two names that come to mind.

EDIT TO ADD: And for the love of God, get wind flags!!!

Guilty as charged. I'm basically trying to repurpose parts off my Remington and onto a good action and barrel. I had hoped it would shoot sub .5"s @ 200Y. Perhaps I should have described better what I thought a bughole was. Maybe I should have said cloverleaf. =) . Looking at some of the bench rest scores for 200Y .5"s is well below bench rest accuracy. Hell even with a well built bench rest rifle I have no idea if I could shoot groups like that.
Your post was great and I thank you for it!

 

[TommyD11730]

A bullet like the SMK and match primers may very well improve your current 223. But your choice of the 6mm br is great choice to chase accuracy.

I have shot both the 69, 77 and 80 Sierra SMKs. The loads I developed we ok, but not as good as the current 80.5 Berger. However your line of thinking is sound. I mean if I could develop a new load maybe it would satisfy me?
Speaking to Berger and working with my 1-7 twist they suggested the 73 BT Target. I was able after searching all over to find a vendor who had some. Not cheap mind you but a lot less then a new barrel to try the lighter flat base bullets.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Rocklong]

.8” at 200 seems like and average bug size hole to me. Haha

 

[DocRDS]

Take a class

All the gear in the world won't fix bad fundamentals

 

[TommyD11730]

Take a class

All the gear in the world won't fix bad fundamentals

True, might have to look into that. Been shooting since the late 70's, probably picked up all kinds of bad habits.