Help with a AR scatter gun

[sacklunch]

Not an AR guy… snagged sopmod clone upper DD upper with the smaller diameter port I think, threw it on a JP lower, rise trigger, vltor carbine length buffer (A5 I think?) whatever…only cause folks always ask for details.

It’s 10.5” with an RC2 in 5.56 in it…rifle is an absolute scatter gun ever at 50 yards off a bipod. Given, it’s just got a 3x magnifier and a exps on it, but shouldn’t it be a bit tighter than that? Talking 2” at 50 yards with about anything I can find to feed it.

I’m probably going to pull the barrel, but what are some obvious things to check for? Proper torque, nothing loose or touching the handguard, brake/mount is tight…anything else? Not sure how to trouble shoot an AR

Optic is fine, same results after I pulled the eotech and threw it on a riser as well, but everything is shrugged up.

Don’t need it to drive tacks, it’s a truck gun mainly, but anytime I let someone shoot it, they say the same, a DD should be more accurate than that. I shot a 10.5” colt in a class about a decade ago and we were on steel at 400…no way I could do that with this rifle. No Rise trigger in the photo…JP trigger there, but no change for the better when swapped.

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[camocorvette]

I'd pull the barrel. Clean everything and bed or shim it. Make sure the barrel nut is torqued properly.

Before that you should make sure all your optics mounts and handguard are tight.

 

[USK308]

IMO, before you start ripping apart, I'd at least do:
1) thorough barrel & BCG cleaning
2) shoot a few boxes of various grain-weight 5.56 ammo to see what the rifle likes best
3) consider options after that (if still applicable)

 

[Trigger Monkey]

In fairness, it's a clone of a military rifle hitting the military standard for accuracy, it's "mil-spec". The military standard for zeroing is a five shot group within a 4 MOA circle at 25 meters and at 50 yards 2" is right in that 4 MOA wheelhouse so the gun is technically fine. That should still be sufficiently capable enough to hit a man sized target at distance.

If you're striving for more then you'll likely need to replace the barrel with something like a Criterion, Centurion, or Geissele.

 

[sacklunch]

In fairness, it's a clone of a military rifle hitting the military standard for accuracy, it's "mil-spec". The military standard for zeroing is a five shot group within a 4 MOA circle at 25 meters and at 50 yards 2" is right in that 4 MOA wheelhouse so the gun is technically fine. That should still be sufficiently capable enough to hit a man sized target at distance.

If you're striving for more then you'll likely need to replace the barrel with something like a Criterion, Centurion, or Geissele.

I agree from the truck gun standpoint, just fine. I’ve got a mawl on it now and it’s fine on steel running night drills too.

But I’d like to find a bit more accuracy down range and be able to push it to 150-200 or so with NVGs and the MAWL for coyotes/hogs…right now, it’s pretty iffy for that.

I did strip it down and clean everything about 50 rounds ago. Probably 500 total on the barrel now…never an improvement.

 

[hlee]

They don’t think Mil-Spec be like it is, but it do…

 

[sacklunch]

I mean, it’s a DD barrel. I wasn’t expecting bartlein accuracy, but this is kinda doo-doo

 

[Eyesquared]

What ammo have you tried?

Mil-spec this or mil-spec that, I have multiple DD CL barrels (both 11.5 and 14.5) that will easily shoot tighter than 4moa with a variety of ammo. I agree you should not just stop and call 4 moa "normal" especially if you bought this upper new.

 

[sacklunch]

IMI, Hornady Black, whatever LC stamped crap I had in an ammo can and some M855A1…no real noticeable, although I didn’t break out the calipers to measure, they were all just unimpressive. Maybe that’s 10.5” life, but I’ve shot some buddies 12” pred control builds and they are hammers for half the cost of a DR upper.

 

[sacklunch]

What ammo have you tried?

Mil-spec this or mil-spec that, I have multiple DD CL barrels (both 11.5 and 14.5) that will easily shoot tighter than 4moa with a variety of ammo. I agree you should not just stop and call 4 moa "normal" especially if you bought this upper new.

I’m leaning towards pulling it and finding some links to bedding an AR

 

[MarshallDodge]

My experience with a Daniel Defense 14.5" LW barrel was very good. Sub MOA out to 500 yards using handloads. I built the upper with a BCM receiver and an ALG rail

The advice to check to clean it well and check the barrel bedding is a good idea. Also try some 69 or 77 grain Gold Medal Match.

 

[Eyesquared]

You might have to try some more ammo - my particular barrels do okay with ADI F1 (~1.8 moa typical for 5 shot groups off bipod and rear bag). Tried some 77gr SMKs and 69gr SMKs and didn't see any big improvements.

Failing that I would say maybe pull the barrel and bed the extension but I'm doubtful that will cut group size meaningfully for a barrel that's not shooting.

 

[mtrmn]

Let an experienced AR guy shoot it.

 

[hlee]

IMI, Hornady Black, whatever LC stamped crap I had in an ammo can and some M855A1…no real noticeable, although I didn’t break out the calipers to measure, they were all just unimpressive. Maybe that’s 10.5” life, but I’ve shot some buddies 12” pred control builds and they are hammers for half the cost of a DR upper.

I wouldn’t call any of these precision loads. 4 moa is what I’d expect from m855, and “whatever KC stamped crap” doesn’t inspire confidence. IMI is plinker ammo, not precision ammo, in my experience.

I have a rifle that shoots Hornady black into 1 moa at 100 yards, and another that sprays it into about 2.5. But, the second shoots a different load very well.

What am I saying? Unimpressive results from “Whatever crap ammo” you had on hand is not surprising.

 

[sacklunch]

Let an experienced AR guy shoot it.

I didn’t realize shooting an AR was so cosmic it has a trigger and a cheek rest just like every other rifle I’ve shot for groups…bipod and bag even. Definitely shooter error.

 

[sacklunch]

I wouldn’t call any of these precision loads. 4 moa is what I’d expect from m855, and “whatever KC stamped crap” doesn’t inspire confidence. IMI is plinker ammo, not precision ammo, in my experience.

I have a rifle that shoots Hornady black into 1 moa at 100 yards, and another that sprays it into about 2.5. But, the second shoots a different load very well.

What am I saying? Unimpressive results from “Whatever crap ammo” you had on hand is not surprising.

I’m not feeing my truck gun hand loads or premium ammo, not worth my time or money. It’s got Hornady black in it day to day, IMI usually at the range. I’d rather drop a proof in it and make up the $$ difference shooting IMI than spent a bunch on slightly better ammo. 4-5” at 100 yards isnt respectable even with plinking ammo. Ref earlier post about stretching 10.5” barrels out to 400 yards on IPSC sized targets in a mil class back in the day…99.9% sure we were loading up Lake City brass then too. Not a big AR guy, but I’ve shot enough to know that it should be better than it’s currently shooting…hense the trouble shooting OP

 

[Eyesquared]

I would try the PSA 77gr OTM or 69gr OTM loads. Not sure how cheap you're getting Hornady Black for but this stuff has shot well for me. Granted it's temp sensitive and lot to lot velocity is not consistent.

 

[RayDBonz]

Well, it's a 5.56 NATO chamber in a chrome-lined 10.3" barrel. Not the recipe for accuracy.
It's a 1:7 twist, so 69 or 77 gr bullets should work best. Won't get great velocities with that short of a barrel. So, terminal ballistics will suck too.
Might be the best that barrel can do.

 

[camocorvette]

This rifle is at a impasse then. The advice to have another shooter group the rifle is not bad. You literally say your "not an ar guy".

Gas guns are inherently less accurate in the hands of inexperienced shooters. Even a good shooter can't make shit parts shoot well most times either, with out alot of fucking around.

Like I said before follow the basic steps of a wandering zero or inaccurate rifle. Check fastner tightness first. If that's not the issue, you could benefit from bedding the barrel extension into the receiver. Green 640 loctite is easy.

That could solve it.

Or you got a combat accurate rifle. It's literally a clone of a Mil Spec weapon. 3-4 moa is accepted accuracy. I wouldn't buy a 10.5 AR and expect accuracy. And if I did I would buy a Bartlein or similar quality for it.

It's a DD. I don't think match grade .5-3/4 moa when I think DD. I think tactical odg and fde with smoke grenades and mag dumps into trash.

Idk. Email DD and see what they say. That's your cheapest option. Then bed it if it's sloppy. Or replace the barrel with a 12.5 that's known to shoot moa

 

[mtrmn]

I didn’t realize shooting an AR was so cosmic it has a trigger and a cheek rest just like every other rifle I’ve shot for groups…bipod and bag even. Definitely shooter error.

The very first statement in your OP---

Not an AR guy…

 

[Wizard1183]

Let an experienced AR guy shoot it.

This. AR is NOT a bolt gun. Anyone can point aim and shoot a bolt gun and cloverleaf. An AR, it takes A LOT more consistency for those small groups

 

[sacklunch]

The very first statement in your OP---

Comprehension is tough I see…the OP said not an AR guy, implying trouble shooting accuracy issues isn’t my 9-5…doesn’t mean I haven’t put multiple thousands of rounds down one. ARs are not unicorns, fundemantals of marksmanship still apply. Good talk. Pm me, I’ll mail you my jump to conclusions mat

 

[BCP]

2" at 50 yards is 4" at 100 yards if you are shooting regular 55gr or 62gr ball ammo that's about right

my palmetto 11.5" ghetto blaster is about 5moa using iron sights

put a regular red dot on it, zero it at 50 and shoot the shit out of it

if you still want smaller groups from your stubby rifle this might help:

Stainless Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56 | Noveske Rifleworks

The barrel ships with a gas block. This barrel is designed for our gas block that is 1" long (INCLUDED). A standard front sight base is 1.9" long and WILL NOT FIT. Barrel installation should be performed by a qualified gunsmith. Installation of the gas block dowel pin and gas…

noveske.com

I wouldn't bother with reassembling/tightening/shimming unless the barrel is literally flopping around, I recently went through all that with another rifle my time would've been better spent jacking off

 

[camocorvette]

2" at 50 yards is 4" at 100 yards if you are shooting regular 55gr or 62gr ball ammo that's about right

my palmetto 11.5" ghetto blaster is about 5moa using iron sights

put a regular red dot on it, zero it at 50 and shoot the shit out of it

if you still want smaller groups from your stubby rifle this might help:

Stainless Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56 | Noveske Rifleworks

The barrel ships with a gas block. This barrel is designed for our gas block that is 1" long (INCLUDED). A standard front sight base is 1.9" long and WILL NOT FIT. Barrel installation should be performed by a qualified gunsmith. Installation of the gas block dowel pin and gas…

noveske.com

I wouldn't bother with reassembling/tightening/shimming unless the barrel is literally flopping around, I recently went through all that with another rifle my time would've been better spent jacking off

100%

 

[ZA206]

Does it shoot the same with the suppressor off?

 

[misser]

2" at 50 yards is 4" at 100 yards if you are shooting regular 55gr or 62gr ball ammo that's about right

my palmetto 11.5" ghetto blaster is about 5moa using iron sights

put a regular red dot on it, zero it at 50 and shoot the shit out of it

if you still want smaller groups from your stubby rifle this might help:

Stainless Lo-Pro Gas Block Barrel 5.56 | Noveske Rifleworks

The barrel ships with a gas block. This barrel is designed for our gas block that is 1" long (INCLUDED). A standard front sight base is 1.9" long and WILL NOT FIT. Barrel installation should be performed by a qualified gunsmith. Installation of the gas block dowel pin and gas…

noveske.com

I wouldn't bother with reassembling/tightening/shimming unless the barrel is literally flopping around, I recently went through all that with another rifle my time would've been better spent jacking off

2" at 50 yards had a mini 14 that shot that good

 

[LRRPF52]

How is the Surefire muzzle device mounted?

Does it shoot like this naked/unsuppressed?

 

[Inline6]

Comprehension is tough I see…the OP said not an AR guy, implying trouble shooting accuracy issues isn’t my 9-5…doesn’t mean I haven’t put multiple thousands of rounds down one. ARs are not unicorns, fundemantals of marksmanship still apply. Good talk. Pm me, I’ll mail you my jump to conclusions mat

For what it's worth, from someone that shoots for groups damn near every weekend with a bolt gun.

It takes me 20-40 rds through an AR to start getting the accuracy I expecte. No one is accusing you of not being able to shoot. Just saying it is a cheap and damn near effort free test. You have multiple recoil impulses to drive through.