Help with decision on replacing barrel or new rifle

[Imurhuckleberry]

Hey all,

First time poster. I'm hoping to get some outside thoughts.

I have a Remington 700 chambered in .308 winchester with a 1:12 twist. This rifle is a shooter with Hornady Amax 165 or BTHP 168. Holes touching at 100 yards. When California moved to 100% Lead Free for all hunting I tried out about 8 different loads from 150gr (lowest I could find) to 168gr. I tried Winchester, Hornady, Barnes, Buffalo Bore, etc. The best grouping I could achieve with the copper was about 1.5-2". I believe this was directly correlated to the slow twist rate of the barrel and the longer coper bullet. Needless to say, it has shaken my shooting confidence and I do not feel comfortable hunting the current setup as long as Lead-free is required.

I love the .308 round from both a practical and nostalgic viewpoint. My hunting ranges are typically 200-400 yards but also like to do some target shooting in the sub 1000 yard range. I primarily hunt pigs but getting into Mule Deer hopefully soon.

I have been doing a lot of research and I also am impressed with the 6.5 PRC but not sure there's enough of a practical difference for me to purchase a new rifle outright. I'm not totally convinced there's a downside to the 6.5 PRC within 400 yards based on bullet weight alone and the longer range stability looks promising. I am not really concerned with barrel life. I'm also not totally convinced I need the better ballistics of the 6.5 PRC based on my use case.

These are the options I am considering:

Option 1
Rebarrel with .308 Hart Barrel - Light Varmint Contour with 1:10 twist)
Debating between 18" and 20" still
Straight Flutes
Cerakote Action and Barrel
Treaded with a VG6 Gamma
Drop it into a KRG Bravo Chassis
Total in, I'll be around $2,000ish (effectively the same as options 2 or 3)

Pros: Check's all the boxes I'm looking to check
Cons: 11 MONTH wait time for Hart Re-barreling, still have 1 rifle

Option 2
Seekins Precision just released the details on Havak PH3 which has a 20" barrel on short actions and it ticks all the boxes.

Purchase Havak PH3 in .308 with 20" barrel and supplement with 6.5 PRC bolt face and barrel later using it as a switch barrel rifle. I'm not sure the 1:11.25 twist will be great for copper though. Sell my current .308 or re-barrel it in another caliber later.

Pros: Ticks all the boxes and possibly recoup some money from the sale of my current Remington 700. Really like the action and look of the PH3. Stock fits me really well.
Cons: Hassle of selling my current .308. Not sure if I want to go the barrel swapping route. Nostalgia makes me want to keep my first bolt action.
Concern: Only a 1:11.25 twist. Not sure how this will work with Copper.

Option 3
Purchase Havak PH3 in 6.5 PRC and re-barrel my existing .308 later.

Pros: I would have 2 rifles. 2 calibers.
Cons: Would not be able to hunt with the .308 until/if I re-barrel later.
Concern: If I go this route, would I be better off going long action 7 PRC instead of having a .308 and 6.5 PRC both?


What would you guys do? What am I not considering?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

So if I correctly distill the information in your post, the constraint in all your choices is lead-free ammo, which has proven to perform poorly in your current rifle. A few thoughts:

• If you buy a different rifle in different caliber / twist rate, you still won't know how well the lead-free ammo performs. Since you are attached to your current .308, there may well be merit in rebarreling it to a faster twist rate. To that end:
  • Not sure why you're locked into Hart for rebarrel - are you really? Has hart in some way given you confidence that their barrel will work well with lead-free ammo?
  • I'd suggest contacting Greg or Russ at Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) for other options - or one of the other supporting vendors here on SH. I always suggest SPR because I've worked with them a few times.
• If you get your current 308 shooting well for hunting purposes and you want to shoot longer ranges in a more "not for hunting" context, would you not be free of the lead-free ammo constraint? So maybe go to a less-expensive caliber option like 6.5 Creedmoor or even .223? I regularly shoot my .223 to 1000 yards. If you want to hunt with the 2nd rifle, then never mind this point.
• I just don't get why people want to put stubby barrels on centerfire rifles and rob themselves of potentially hundreds of fps of velocity. Shoot factory ammo out of something like a 6.5PRC in a short barrel? Why bother, when much of the potential energy manifests as muzzle flash and you get performance more like a 6.5 Creedmoor or even Grendel? No big deal for 400-yard shots on deer-size game... but 800 or more yards at targets, or the same 400-yard shot on larger game? Then it matters.

Bottom line to me is resolving unknowns about lead-free ammo performance, if hunting is your main priority.

Good luck.

 

[sinister]

My hunting ranges are typically 200-400 yards but also like to do some target shooting in the sub 1000 yard range. I primarily hunt pigs but getting into Mule Deer hopefully soon.
...options I am considering:

... merit in rebarreling it to a faster twist rate. To that end:

• Not sure why you're locked into Hart for rebarrel - are you really? Has hart in some way given you confidence that their barrel will work well with lead-free ammo?
• I'd suggest contacting Greg or Russ at Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) for other options - or one of the other supporting vendors here on SH. I always suggest SPR because I've worked with them a few times.

• If you get your current 308 shooting well for hunting purposes and you want to shoot longer ranges in a more "not for hunting" context, would you not be free of the lead-free ammo constraint? So maybe go to a less-expensive caliber option like 6.5 Creedmoor or even .223? I regularly shoot my .223 to 1000 yards. If you want to hunt with the 2nd rifle, then never mind this point.
• I just don't get why people want to put stubby barrels on centerfire rifles and rob themselves of potentially hundreds of fps of velocity. Shoot factory ammo out of something like a 6.5PRC in a short barrel? Why bother, when much of the potential energy manifests as muzzle flash and you get performance more like a 6.5 Creedmoor or even Grendel? No big deal for 400-yard shots on deer-size game... but 800 or more yards at targets, or the same 400-yard shot on larger game? Then it matters.

Bottom line to me is resolving unknowns about lead-free ammo performance, if hunting is your main priority.

Good luck.

I agree with Downhill.

I just bought a Krieger 1-10 M24 blank from Bugholes and had John Scanlon in Pennsylvania turn it into an SR-25 barrel in around 90 days. I'm sure he can turn an available Krieger or Bartlein blank for a 700 much quicker.

If you can use lead bullets for range competition (to 1000) but need lead-free for hunting I'd use a 24-inch 1-10 Remington Varmint, Sendero, or Light Varmint taper. You need to push a 169 or 175 around 2550 fps to get to 1,000 and remain supersonic. The 1-10 twist (getting a little over two complete spins) will get longer solid-copper bullets to 200-400 at the sub minute-of-mule deer standard.

I like the KRG Bravo chassis a lot.

 

[powdahound76]

1: do you know how much jump you gave the 150 gr Barnes TTSX?
Hard to not get those to shoot decent enough to be sub MOA with enough jump. Might need 80 thou or more.
had them shoot decent in an old 1:12 Rem .308 (Barnes factory ammo, not reloads)
Current 1:10 Proof CF barrel I have shoots them well with Varget.


Also, I think there are a couple things to read and I believe I once read the solids shoot best in a clean barrel fouled with a solid vs fouling from a cup/core bullet.

Maybe things to try?



And absolutely get the new PH3 and run it as a switch barrel in .308 and 6.5 PRC.
Because thats just cool!!!

 

[gopherslayer]

Scrub the shit out of your barrel and retry. 208 Amax stabilizes from my 20” 1:12 Remington barrel so you shouldn’t have an issue with monos. Get them light and drive them fast.

 

[tekmann2377]

Keep your rifle for now and try a lighter bullet. Barnes makes 110 TSX and 130 TSX bullets. Their BC isn't the best but they can be pushed pretty fast (3200+ fps for the 130's) and should still have enough gas to expand to the 350-400 yard range.

Copper bullets seem to like a lot of jump, which will be easier to achieve with the lighter ones. Also I agree with cleaning any copper fouling out prior to accuracy testing. Barnes CR-10 is your friend.

Now if you want another rifle, I always support getting another rifle haha. And as a long range cartridge the 6.5 PRC is great! (I have one!)

 

[nocoolname]

.

• I just don't get why people want to put stubby barrels on centerfire rifles and rob themselves of potentially hundreds of fps of velocity. Shoot factory ammo out of something like a 6.5PRC in a short barrel? Why bother, when much of the potential energy manifests as muzzle flash and you get performance more like a 6.5 Creedmoor or even Grendel? No big deal for 400-yard shots on deer-size game... but 800 or more yards at targets, or the same 400-yard shot on larger game? Then it matters.

Shorter barrel weighs less, is easier to maneuver with and less chance of getting snagged when hiking in. You go to a bigger caliber to get the energy you want since you traded MV for weight and maneuverability.

 

[diggler1833]

Scrub the shit out of your barrel and retry. 208 Amax stabilizes from my 20” 1:12 Remington barrel so you shouldn’t have an issue with monos. Get them light and drive them fast.

^ This.

Try this first. Frequently a barrel needs thoroughly cleaned before accuracy is achieved if you're switching to an all-copper projectile. It is potentially the cheapest remedy.

 

[Kickin45]

OP, do you hand load? I feel like that could really help.
If you don’t, find a friend. Ask to use “rent” someone’s press. Make friends at the range, ask co-workers etc.


My Desert Tech 300wm barrel shot .5 with just about any decent factory ammo.
My good friend had me over to his house and we loaded 20 rnds. Every single one of them, with pretty much zero load development, shot .3 or better.
Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s near a 40% improvement. Think what a 40-50% improvement to your current 1.5-2.0 would do!

I’m a huge fan of “more guns”, so by all means, the Havak is a great choice I think.

But I’m also a fan of every rifle I own needs to work/shoot properly.

Just my 2c. Which btw is worth +/- a nickel

 

[powdahound76]

Also, because it is relevant.

Screw California and their Lead Free foolishness for big game.

Idiots I tell ya.

And yes, just waiting for my state of CO (landlocked California) to do the same…..

 

[shields shtr]

I handload the Hammer line of bullets (all copper) and have found them to be extraordinarily easy to load for accuracy wise. All sorts of different calibers from .22 to .30.

I agree with the above about CA, but whatever you do, DO NOT LEAVE CALIFORNIA. Stay and fight the good fight. Geographically speaking, there is alot of potential there.

Since this is Snipers Hide, you should always lean towards buying a completely new setup as well.

To summarize: Buy a new Seekins, and don't leave CA.

 

[Imurhuckleberry]

Thank you all for the input so far. To clarify some points:

1. I do not reload. Commercially available ammo is going to be my option for the near future.

2. I keep my barrel clean and did a thorough cleaning prior to testing the different copper loads. The twist rate is the problem, confirmed by manufacturer recommendation for most of the loads for 1:11 or faster twist.

3. If I go the re-barrel route, I'll give SPR a call to see what they can do as well. I was sold on Hart based on the barrel, reviews, service and price range.

4. Do you think the 1:11.25 twist on the PH3 is going to be fast enough to stabilize a 165 gr copper?

5. I'd be interested in feedback on whether or not there would be a downside of the 6.5 PRC for inside 400 yards vs the .308. I am not sure the lighter bullet would make much of a difference, especially since many are recommending going to 110-130 gr copper.

...and I won't be getting out from behind enemy lines anytime soon. I've lived here my whole life and not done fighting for the soul of this state.

Where else can I surf, fish, wakeboard, snow board and mountain bike all on the same day?