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Help with Irons

Bigwheels

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jun 16, 2007
    1,824
    298
    58
    Anacortes WA
    I'm having a problem with my iron sight poi. I have a 16" DPMS LR 308 with stock BUIS cowitnessed with an Aimpoint M4. Zero is @ 300yd with both sights, & I was hitting a 50% sil @ 300 at will with both sights. Problem is when I move back to 100yd the M4 is hitting right where it should be,(4" high) but the irons are hitting 6"-8" higher than they should. I tested using the same rest prone with both sights @ the same distances, & as far as I can tell I'm using the same sight picture with the irons for both ranges. I can't figure what I might be doing wrong to get the irons to hit that far off @ 100yd. It was the same when I checked it @ 50yd. The irons were hitting way high, & the M4 was right where it should be.
     
    Re: Help with Irons

    Thanks. I have given myself a headache trying to figure this out with no ideas. I don't get it. I am using the small/long range peep and bracketing the ears on the front sight so I am not trying to gauge/estimate anything in the sight picture. So I am at a loss. If it were hitting an inch or two higher I could figure it was my bad eyes or something but not 6-8" @ 100yd.
     
    Re: Help with Irons

    I found at my last silhouette match that I became target-focused (as opposed to front sight focused) after shooting for awhile and that affected the elevation of my impacts (windage was fine). Stupid simple I know (Iron Sights 101 stuff) but that was all I could attribute my problem to.
     
    Re: Help with Irons

    Thanks for replying. I was about to give up on getting any pointers.I know my cheek weld was the same. I always put the small ear @ the front of the adjustable stock in the corner of my lip. And the prone support was the same as well. I suppose it could be target fixation, but I don't think so. At 300yd when I was zeroing the sights I was able to hit the 50% sil at will even tho I could barely make it out against the backdrop. But @ 50, & 100 I could see the center spot I was aiming at. Also this was on 3 different days. I did the 50yd one day, verified the 300yd zero another day, & 100yd a different day. I need to load some more ammo, & do it again.
     
    Re: Help with Irons

    OP,

    Your problem could simply be a perspective of aim issue. I see this all the time. You must focus on the front sight. Shooting at a 300 meter target, the target will be just slightly blurred, thereby making it easy for you to recognize that your focus is remaining where it should be, on the front sight. At shorter distances, your eye will go back and forth from target to sight, attempting to keep each in focus. You will be unconscious of this. When the focus goes too much to the target you will loose recognition for where the barrel is actually pointed. In your case, the front sight appears to be going to a spot higher than center of aperture as a result of positional relaxation or stockweld. Since you now have angular error the result is extreme as you have described.

    Get back with it and after adjusting NPA, to get the sight picture you are looking for, concentrate on bringing the focus back to the front sight. Then, take a mental snap shot of the sight picture, not as a 3D relationship, but, as a 2D one. This will support picture memory development, where eventually your brain will accept that this sort of target/sight relationship is all that is needed for an exact hit, as good as would be possible with a scope. At this point, focusing on the sight rather than target will become easier. You will no longer be taking a leap of faith; and, your mindset will be what it needs to be to get good hits with irons. Right now, your brain is deceiving you, it tells you that you must focus on the target to get a good hit; but, of course, that is not true, the target is just a distraction. One more thing, when you have learned to make the target/sight relationship a two dimensional one, the target will no longer be perceived as being small. This is an aid to long range shooting with irons where perception of the target being small can be demoralizing.

    After getting focus on the sight, if you still have the problem you're having, then I'd suggest your perception of center of mass is changing. This is a common problem when shooting an E type target. It's like having a half dozen girlfriends and you can't decide who is right for you. Eventually, with practice, you will hone in on what is center of mass; and, hits will be where you expect them.

    Interestingly, if you were to shoot at NRA HP targets right now, using a 6 o'clock hold, you would be able to eliminate all of the problems discussed, as what center of mass looks like is moot. These targets will also promote better shooting when using a center of mass hold too since being round the diameter of the target serves as a guide to a proper hold.

    Finally, remember, when shooting with irons it's all about developing picture memory, using the brain's ability to naturally balance and center things. With a scope it's all about resolving the target/reticle relationship. Irons can yield exacting results when you don't attempt to get resolution from them but instead work on getting picture memory resolved to perfection. If you stick with it, you will be amazed with the results you can get with irons. All that is required is that the target is big enough to discern a target/sight relationship. When you get really good with it, don't be surprised to shoot almost as good with irons as you can with a scope. I prefer irons over scope in mid range competitions, as I typically produce better scores with irons. I suppose my hold seems steadier than when using a scope. With scope I am too aggressive on the trigger, not fully coming to realize that my shaky perception will have no detrimental effect if I just continue to pull SMOOTHLY.

     
    Re: Help with Irons

    I can tell you that the CompM4 is very sensitive to changes in cheek weld, more specifically eye relief. My guess is that going prone is changing that and ultimately changing the POA with the Aimpoint. I would be "sure" that is your problem except for your statement "the M4 is hitting right where it should be." I don't know the trajectory of your round but if you're certain that's correct then....? If you said your iron sights POI were on at 100yd and the Aimpoint was off..........problem solved.
     
    Re: Help with Irons

    Sterling Shooter. I was hoping you would chime in here. Thank you. I will try again with a different style target, & see if I can get it right.

    Yes. The aimpoint was hitting 4" high. Right where it should be. The irons were hitting 6-8" higher than the aimpoint.