Help with new 300 win mag

[Bushmaster11]

Hi,
I bought a new Savage 111 Long Range Hunter chambered in 300wm, and after taking it to the range once I'm not sure about a few things.

1- The barrel has a brake that can be opened/closed, 24" open 26" closed. I kept it closed but didn't notice much of a difference when I shot it open. If the recoil doesn't hurt me, it's better to leave it closed right?

2- I'm shooting with a harris 9" bipod off a concrete shooting table, and after each shot I completely lose sight of the target. Is this normal with a rifle of this caliber? Or something that will just take time to get used to?


Any help is much appreciated, thank you.

 

[Unknown]

Even with cartridges like the 7.62x51 recoil usually causes me to loose sight of the target unless I use a very low powered optic, the target is very far away, or I hold the rifle so tightly that accuracy suffers.

Using the brake should yield a noticeable reduction in recoil. Check it by noticing how much/far the rifle jumps with and without the brake. Some people who are not very recoil sensitive may think recoil is the same because the increase in blast caused by the brake creates a perception of recoil, when we are really reacting to the noise. If the brakes and/or flash suppressors didn't work, there wouldn't be so many in use.

However, not all brakes are created equal. My 300 win mag's recoil was reduced to the level of a 7.62x51, however the recoil is faster or sharper, and the noise is brutal if you are outside the noise cone directly behind the rifle (where the shooter is located).

I am shooting a 190 Sierra at 2960-3000 FPS, so I was very pleased at how well my brake,works.

If recoil doesn't bother you, I would shoot the rifle in the condition that yields the best accuracy.

 

[Bushmaster11]

Thank you, that makes sense. The noise was louder so I probably thought it was the same amount of recoil. And you were right, the optic was set to 24x so that explains losing sight of the target. Thanks a lot for the help.

 

[timelinex]

Unless you have a specific reason not to, leave the brake open. As the other poster said, they are proven to work. However the site picture issue is more about your fundamentals than anything else. The larger the caliber and higher the magnification, the harder it is to keep the target in your site picture, however it is still possible.

Being straight behind the rifle And having great NPA is the secret to it. Don't feel bad of you cant achieve it right away though. Sometimes I'll have great recoil management and control on the site picture, then I don't shoot for two weeks and I lose it. Great marksmanship is a perishable skill. However once you learn the fundamentals, satisfactory marksmen hip should always be easy to attain.

 

[Bushmaster11]

That makes sense too, thanks. I wanted to leave the brake closed for better accuracy, but I don't think there will be any difference at 100yds so I'll try with it open next time.

having great NPA is the secret to it.

Sorry, I don't know what NPA is? And about being behind the rifle, it was at ben avery so the shooting tables are pretty slick, should the rifle be sliding back (what felt like) ~4 inches?

Thanks for the help and timely answer, I was a little discouraged the first time but it seems like losing the sight picture isn't the worst thing.

 

[timelinex]

I go to Ben Avery all the time, they don't mind if you bring a Matt and go prone. So don't be afraid to get your shirt dirty by laying down and shooting prone. Getting behind the rifle means that when your laying prone your body is in line straight with the bore of the rifle.

Npa is natural point of aim. I you do a search on that, there's a ton of good information on it.

 

[Bushmaster11]

I go to Ben Avery all the time, they don't mind if you bring a Matt and go prone. So don't be afraid to get your shirt dirty by laying down and shooting prone. Getting behind the rifle means that when your laying prone your body is in line straight with the bore of the rifle.

Npa is natural point of aim. I you do a search on that, there's a ton of good information on it.

I'll shoot prone next time for sure. Thanks for the tips and I'll make sure to make sure I'm behind the rifle properly next time.

Thanks for the NPA tip too, I'll search and read those before I go again.

 

[Slowroll]

I agree with timelinex, npa is your foundation in any shooting position. I close my eyes after getting in position, relax and then open them. For me if my sight picture still addresses the target, I have npa covered and proceed to make the shot. Being "behind" the rifle helps with target follow through. My m107 requires a straight back alignment to help manage recoil. Cheers

 

[Gildoom]

When I shoot my 7mm Mag or when I was shooting my 300 win mag before I got rid of it, I dry fire between reloads. Shoot 5 round group, relax, dry fire, think about how my positioning has changed due to recoil. Am I getting sloppy with how I am sitting/laying?

I'd also suggest shooting at around 11~15x power for a bit to get more comfortable. I bring a beverage with me too, that helps me get up and move around so I don't get overly tunneled on shooting. Get up, go to the rig, get my swig of water/soda, chill for a minute or two, then when I get back in, settle down and dry fire.

I've had pretty good success, and practicing with low recoil rifles, especially 22's it really helped me advance.

Like the others suggested, watch Lowlight's how you line up to the rifle, I think you can find a lot of these on youtube. Go to his youtube channel and just watch your ass off. I have not had any formal training other than his youtube videos and tips from here.

I'm doing pretty well now, at least for what my goals are.

I'm not posting this video to brag, but to help show that the tools on here are amazing to use, when I first joined Sniper'shide I was just looking for a means to shoot deer long off, which was 600 yards. Now, that is not remotely intimidating at all.

When I shot this video I was confused at my holdovers at longer range, was shooting 880 yards and it was not making sense for how I didn't need as much elevation, after some shooting I found out why. My zero was high, no idea how that happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPrl384YZeg

 

[Bushmaster11]

When I shoot my 7mm Mag or when I was shooting my 300 win mag before I got rid of it, I dry fire between reloads. Shoot 5 round group, relax, dry fire, think about how my positioning has changed due to recoil. Am I getting sloppy with how I am sitting/laying?

I'd also suggest shooting at around 11~15x power for a bit to get more comfortable. I bring a beverage with me too, that helps me get up and move around so I don't get overly tunneled on shooting. Get up, go to the rig, get my swig of water/soda, chill for a minute or two, then when I get back in, settle down and dry fire.

I've had pretty good success, and practicing with low recoil rifles, especially 22's it really helped me advance.

Thanks for the tips, I'll give those videos a watch. I practiced before on 22's and .223's, I'll make sure to maintain the same fundamentals on the 300wm.

I like your tip of taking a break between groups, what about between shots? I go with another person and spot between 3 round groups, but each 3 round group takes almost 10 minutes to shoot, which I'm starting to think may be way too long after reading some of the threads on here. What is a good amount to take between shots if you're shooting for the tightest group possible? With these lengthy group times my supporting hand would get tired from holding up the rear bag/rifle.

 

[Gildoom]

I tend to think of the time sort of like when I was a kid bagging groceries, when I first started I was kind of slow, not putting the wrong things in with food. Then after a few weeks I was the fastest in the store, your velocity will increase as your skill progresses. The other thing though, Magnums kick hard, even my 300 win mag had a muzzle brake and it still created a mental road block. My 7mm Mag that I shoot does not but the Manners Stock it is in is just taming the recoil somehow nicely. Even still, shooting sometime I will have a nice tight little group then hey look, a flier, that is me getting jumpy. When I do that it really means I need to dry fire more and get my head in the game.

When you see people on videos who are reloading and shooting really fast, they are either missing like mad or they have progressed to a point where their fundamentals are so locked down they are faster than me with an AR10.

 

[Bushmaster11]

When I do that it really means I need to dry fire more and get my head in the game.

I'll do more of that when I head out tomorrow, maybe a good amount of dry fires between shot will help me not pull any.

 

[Idaho Savage]

Hi,
I bought a new Savage 111 Long Range Hunter chambered in 300wm, and after taking it to the range once I'm not sure about a few things.

1- The barrel has a brake that can be opened/closed, 24" open 26" closed. I kept it closed but didn't notice much of a difference when I shot it open. If the recoil doesn't hurt me, it's better to leave it closed right?

2- I'm shooting with a harris 9" bipod off a concrete shooting table, and after each shot I completely lose sight of the target. Is this normal with a rifle of this caliber? Or something that will just take time to get used to?


Any help is much appreciated, thank you.

FWIW, I am a relatively new marksman, I just bought the exact same rifle, added a Rocky bipod (Harris knockoff) and am having the EXACT same issues. So no help here except to note that you are not crazy. I will say that I DO notice a distinct difference in terms of the brake being open and recoil. I have also read that the stock brake, with it's "dual functionality" isn't nearly as effective as a nice aftermarket brake, so you might opt to replace it. When I was using my rifle on a bench, just resting it on a thermarest at 100 yards, I was able to shoot 1 MOA groups. I, too, am not shooting as well shooting prone with the bipod...it still feels awkward as I continue to experiment with my body positioning. I think I definitely noticed that my cheek position is different...

One other thing to note about that rifle--and maybe the experienced guys will verify or argue: I work with a retired Marine Recon vet who is one hell of a marksman and wanted to see it. When I showed it to him, he recommended I remove that hokey adjustable comb on the stock and instead, wrap a low density foam around the stock, layering it carefully until my cheek rested on the stock "like you could fall asleep on it," then secure it with tape. He noted it's not the prettiest setup but it will remain consistent and will be better than that stock comb that looks prone to movement.

Anyhow, my $.02 as a novice with the same rifle.

 

[The Revenge]

When you shoot prone get behind the gun but also load up your bipod. Lean into it as you take up position, like your trying to bend the bipod legs. You will lock the rifle in place. You can take your hands off and it won't move around between shots.

 

[Idaho Savage]

When you shoot prone get behind the gun but also load up your bipod. Lean into it as you take up position, like your trying to bend the bipod legs. You will lock the rifle in place. You can take your hands off and it won't move around between shots.

Sweet, thanks. I'll give this a shot tonight.

 

[Bushmaster11]

FWIW, I am a relatively new marksman, I just bought the exact same rifle, added a Rocky bipod (Harris knockoff) and am having the EXACT same issues. So no help here except to note that you are not crazy. I will say that I DO notice a distinct difference in terms of the brake being open and recoil. I have also read that the stock brake, with it's "dual functionality" isn't nearly as effective as a nice aftermarket brake, so you might opt to replace it. When I was using my rifle on a bench, just resting it on a thermarest at 100 yards, I was able to shoot 1 MOA groups. I, too, am not shooting as well shooting prone with the bipod...it still feels awkward as I continue to experiment with my body positioning. I think I definitely noticed that my cheek position is different...

Yeah, after reviewing my shots from my 2nd trip to the range, and going again a 3rd time, I saw that a lot of my groups weren't really that spread out (1.5"), but because I was sitting behind it and/or shooting it differently each time, my groups would hit in different places on the target, which I didn't know was possible. Sometimes it would happen within my 3-shot group, but usually not.

So far the 'tips' I've read before but actually understand now are to sit behind the rifle the same way each time & load it the bipod the same each time, basically what The Revenge said below.

Good tip with the cheek rest, it does feel like it might move around a little bit. I might try what your friend suggested, or maybe really tighten the screws and loctite them and see how that works.

After I went back again, I realize that the muzzle brake helps a lot. Be careful though, I shot with it open for ~15 shots and now it's stuck to open... and other people online have had similar problems. If I can get it closed again, I'll let you know how.

When you shoot prone get behind the gun but also load up your bipod. Lean into it as you take up position, like your trying to bend the bipod legs. You will lock the rifle in place. You can take your hands off and it won't move around between shots.

Thanks for the tip, although even when I load the bipod the recoil is still a good amount to move the gun back at least a few inches. Although consistent loading gave me a submoa group finally.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

There are three elements to a steady position: bone/artificial support, NPA, and muscular relaxation. You need to be cognizant of all, not just NPA. Also, there are five factors of a solid position you must be cognizant of: non-firing hand to stock, firing hand to pistol grip, butt to shoulder, stockweld, and elbows to ground or body. These items describe the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground. Unless the factors are consistent between shots unpredictable shot to shot recoil resistance will mean bullets will go someplace other than where aimed. The big idea here is to understand you must control the rifle consistently shot to shot, from the time you pull the trigger until the bullet clears the bore. Following through on your shots, maintaining aim until recoil has ceased, will help you to to call the shot to know where the shot should have gone, as well as understand if your trigger control was smooth enough so as not to disturb aim.

You must shoulder the rifle and establish eye/sight alignment without consideration of the target. That's to say, you do not want the target to distract you from having a NPA as you shoulder the rifle. If you are not conscious of it, the target will cause you to steer the reticle to it, thus loosing NPA. Attempting to then adjust NPA will be difficult, since your brain will want to keep the sight picture, even though it is being maintained mostly by muscle. At any rate, if you do not unconsciously steer to the target upon shouldering the rifle to establish sight alignment, your reticle will likely be superimposed on something other than the target (that's the way it should be) and you will then adjust the NPA by moving the whole body to get the sight picture you desire. After adjusting NPA, placing concentration from target to reticle, pulling the trigger smoothly so as not to disturb aim, and following through will assure a good result, when sights are adjusted properly for wind and weather conditions.

Control of your rifle at first may be better assured with placement of your non firing hand on the hand guard even though the rifle is partially supported by sandbags or a bipod.

 

[Bushmaster11]

OP,

There are three elements to a steady position: bone/artificial support, NPA, and muscular relaxation. You need to be cognizant of all, not just NPA. Also, there are five factors of a solid position you must be cognizant of: non-firing hand to stock, firing hand to pistol grip, butt to shoulder, stockweld, and elbows to ground or body. These items describe the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground. Unless the factors are consistent between shots unpredictable shot to shot recoil resistance will mean bullets will go someplace other than where aimed. The big idea here is to understand you must control the rifle consistently shot to shot, from the time you pull the trigger until the bullet clears the bore. Following through on your shots, maintaining aim until recoil has ceased, will help you to to call the shot to know where the shot should have gone, as well as understand if your trigger control was smooth enough so as not to disturb aim.

Thanks, and I shoot off a bipod currently. I think one of my problems was putting my elbows different places at first which threw a lot of my shots. I use a rear bag and will focus on making sure I do all the things you listed instead of just focusing on one or two.

The only thing I think I'll still have problems with is maintaining a sight picture, I'm shooting a 300wm with a 24x scope at only 100 yards, so when the rifle moves at all I lose the picture.

 

[swagbrdr]

I don't mind shooting off a bench. However, I almost never use a bipod for load development or precision shooting. Pick up some shooting bags instead if your using the bench.

I use the bipods for prone work...

 

[swagbrdr]

The other thing I noticed...you shouldn't need to be at 24x when shooting at a 100. I do better the lower the power I'm on. When your done shooting, you can dial up to 24x to review your shot placement.

 

[Bushmaster11]

The other thing I noticed...you shouldn't need to be at 24x when shooting at a 100. I do better the lower the power I'm on. When your done shooting, you can dial up to 24x to review your shot placement.

What power do you normally use at 100yds? I thought the higher, the better since I'd be able to make sure the center of my reticle is right on target.

 

[swagbrdr]

Well, on my 300 wsm, I have a Ziess conquest 4.5-14. I shoot far better at 100 when I'm at 4.5X than 14. Same with my 7 mag with a leo 4.5-14.

Give it a try. At 100 yards, I can easily pick out any kind of target at 4.5X. Sure, it's small but I can still see it. Shoot say, a 5 shot group, and then turn the power dial to see how you did. I think seeing too much, mentally trips you out, and every little movement you have is broadcasted 24 times...this screws with me too. Leave the high power for the long shooting when you really need it to see the target.

This will also help, when you shoot, to stay on target and see whats going on, as your field of view will be far more on a low power!

 

[Graham]

1) If you're in the process of learning to shoot a rifle, a 300WM factory gun will probably do you more harm than good.
2) Muzzle brakes, properly installed, do not affect accuracy.
3) Your split groups are probably the result of an inconsistent cheek weld.
4) 24x at 100 yards, or at almost any yardage for that matter, is probably way more magnification than necessary and 4x is not enough unless the target is huge.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

1) If you're in the process of learning to shoot a rifle, a 300WM factory gun will probably do you more harm than good.
2) Muzzle brakes, properly installed, do not affect accuracy.
3) Your split groups are probably the result of an inconsistent cheek weld.
4) 24x at 100 yards, or at almost any yardage for that matter, is probably way more magnification than necessary and 4x is not enough unless the target is huge.

OP,

The only thing we know for sure is that bullets went where the barrel was pointed. Split groups can be the result of a multitude of problems. In addition to stockweld, a variable butt to shoulder placement or too low a position will promote gross perspective of aim changes which will produce multiple groupings. Of course, an inconsistent eyeball to eyepiece relationship is at the heart of the matter; but, as motor memory is developed you will gradually begin to place most bullets in a singular grouping. The important thing is not to make sight adjustments until singular groupings can be produced.

About scope power, I sometimes shoot a 6 1/4 inch diameter bull's-eye target at 100 yards for 1000 yard practice. This target is big enough for me to understand the relationship between the tip of the front sight post and the target, using either a center mass or 6 o'clock hold, allowing me to shoot groups in the 1/2 minute arena. This result is typically almost as good as I'd produce with a scope at any power setting The important thing is being able to construct a relationship which you can recognize as being identical shot to shot. Since the eye naturally wants to balance and center things, using a center of mass hold is not dependent on any magnification, when you simply have a target big enough to be seen by the naked eye. Most new shooter's believe it is magnification which is needed to know where the barrel is pointed, they believe without a scope they will not get good results. These folks don't know that picture memory can get them an exact understanding for where the barrel is pointed. The point is, magnification, in general, is a distraction to learning how to shoot, since it does not force the shooter to take the leap of faith to use his natural ability to center things.

 

[Graham]

The only thing we know for sure is that bullets went where the barrel was pointed....
Of course, an inconsistent eyeball to eyepiece relationship is at the heart of the matter;...

I think you confuse people when you contradict yourself like that.

The 'important thing' isn't 'being able to construct a relationship [between the sights and the target] which you can recognize as being identical shot to shot'. That's a mantra for shooting NRA hi-power, hard hold with with iron sights, that doesn't apply here. When using a scope the reticle in the same plane performs that function for you.

The OP said that he is shooting the rifle on a 9" bi-pod from a concrete table. He also said that he doesn't know what NPA is. So we have to back-up one step: He is having issues not with 'factors' of a good position, but with applying with the fundamentals of sight picture, breathing, natural point of aim, trigger control and follow through. The elements which support the fundamentals change in priority with a rifle different from NRA sporting and a position different from NRA sporting. He may also need some coaching on the elements of his position - from a bi-pod and on a table - but by his own admission he's not there yet.

 

[Bushmaster11]

Thanks for the responses guys any tips are really appreciated, and a lot of stuff in this thread has helped me out

The point is, magnification, in general, is a distraction to learning how to shoot, since it does not force the shooter to take the leap of faith to use his natural ability to center things.

I get what you're saying, I guess I was thinking I needed a lot of magnification to make sure I'm aiming at exactly the same spot each time, but I'll try lower magnification tomorrow when I head out to the range, thanks.

I think you confuse people when you contradict yourself like that.

The 'important thing' isn't 'being able to construct a relationship [between the sights and the target] which you can recognize as being identical shot to shot'. That's a mantra for shooting NRA hi-power, hard hold with with iron sights, that doesn't apply here. When using a scope the reticle in the same plane performs that function for you.

The OP said that he is shooting the rifle on a 9" bi-pod from a concrete table. He also said that he doesn't know what NPA is. So we have to back-up one step: He is having issues not with 'factors' of a good position, but with applying with the fundamentals of sight picture, breathing, natural point of aim, trigger control and follow through. The elements which support the fundamentals change in priority with a rifle different from NRA sporting and a position different from NRA sporting. He may also need some coaching on the elements of his position - from a bi-pod and on a table - but by his own admission he's not there yet.

It's a 6-9" bipod, so I just leave it on 6", I think that is the right height for that table/seat. NPA I think had a good one last time I went because I got a better rear bag, but I do still need to work on trigger control I think, and making sure I'm behind the rifle and not to the side.

This will also help, when you shoot, to stay on target and see whats going on, as your field of view will be far more on a low power!

Thanks, I'll try some groups on a lower power and maybe you're right and it will help. At 24x even with my heartbeat it jumps around a little bit, enough to distract me at least.

1) If you're in the process of learning to shoot a rifle, a 300WM factory gun will probably do you more harm than good.
2) Muzzle brakes, properly installed, do not affect accuracy.
3) Your split groups are probably the result of an inconsistent cheek weld.
4) 24x at 100 yards, or at almost any yardage for that matter, is probably way more magnification than necessary and 4x is not enough unless the target is huge.

I've shot rifles before, just this is my first bolt gun. The cheek weld I would think is pretty consistent and the parallax has dialed in, but I know I was changing my position a lot, sometimes between shots. When I stopped doing that I was able to get one sub-moa group (finally).