Rifle Scopes Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

D

donaudi

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Minuteman
Sep 25, 2012
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#1
Hello Optics Experts:

I'm a long time reader and first time poster. I would appreciate some advise regarding an upcoming scope purchase. I'm looking to get either a S&B 3-20x50 or a S&B 5-25x56. What are the pro's and con's of these scopes and how do they compare to each other. Looking to initially use it on a 308AR for long range shooting, more on the tactical side than bench rest style. This will be transferred to a dedicated long range bolt gun down the road. Any recommendations? even for a different brand and type of scope?

Also, I don't have any idea on what reticle to go with. From what I have been reading the P4LF is very popular. How do the MSR, H2CMR, and Klein compare? Are the Horus reticles just propaganda or are they real helpful?

Lastly, is the SPUHR mount still the go to mounting system? The AR has a built in 30moa top rail, would this be sufficient cant?

I know these types of questions pop up fairly often, but I can't really find anything particular. Your help would be much appreciated. No one locally has any high end scopes in stock for me to look through and it's a big purchase for me. So for me I need to get something that will work the first time as a leap of faith. Thanks.
 
#3
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

The 3-20x might be a better fit for .308 AR. The Horus reticles are a personal preference thing - some people hate them while other swear by them. Basically, if you prefer to dial for precision, then go P4 Fine or H2CMR. But if you like to shoot mostly holdovers, the H58 is the way to go. Personally, I go the holdover route with short action semi-autos for the simple fact that you quickly engage multiple distances (think tac match) but for shooting beyond 1000 it's all about dialing for precision.
 
#4
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

First off, I'm no expert. But if you do indeed plan on putting it on a bolt gun down the line, go with the 5-25X. The 3-20x would be better for an autoloader, but you may wish you had the extra magnification later on. Another scope option would be the Premier Heritage, but some people are scared of the business issues they have been having. I have one on order and do not see the company folding when they have a great product that people are still willing to pay for. But from what people say, you should be just fine with a S&B. I'm in a similar situation as I just bought a S&B last week from a vendor on here and was apprehensive about spending 3K on a scope. I'm rural so I also didn't have the option of seeing on in person. Good luck either way.
 
#5
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Got to ask yourself what you want to do with the scope. If you are going to do precision work go for the P4F. If you want to go rapid fire go for a Horus. I say for the same price opt for the scope with more magnification.

My .02 cents.
 
#6
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5-25 PMII CCW MIL/MIL w/ H2CMR and don't look back... and yes Spuhr mount is top notch! </div></div>

This
 
#7
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Using the 5-25x56, i found myself actually turning down the magnification at 800-1000, but sure it was nice to have it if I needed it. The 5-26 requires a high ring set up which put the scope higher on the rifle. The 4-16x50s are selling at some great prices right now for S&B. Personally, I just liked having my scope closer.

The 3-20x50 gives you the best of both scopes. Higher magnification in a smaller package.

The 3-20x50 is actually a shorter scope then the 4-16x50. There is a thread here comparing the two to each other and its pretty divided. I love my 3-20 and have sold the others.

 
#8
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

I have both S&B models in question and I can say without any hesitation go with the 5-25 PMII specifically with the standard Double Turn turrets aka yellow window turrets. Do yourself a favor and don't get the MTC turrets they're a pain in the rear and the new ones that are on the 3-20 the Locking MTC turrets are a SUPER pain in the rear. The MTC knob is tough to get to .1 or .2 mils at times. The one I have the MTC mechanism disengaged as soon as I zeroed the scope for the first time and had to be sent back to S&B to be fixed. The customer service was stellar, but seriously the less I have to deal with CS the better. As far as reticles go I have one scope with the H2CMR and another with the P4 fine. While the H2CMR is no doubt a beauty I still prefer the ole standby P4F. This is my personal opinion and it probably ain't worth much. Just figured you would like to hear from an actual owner of both. Honestly whatever you choose I'm sure you'll be quite content, just stay away from MTC turrets!
 
#10
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

The 5-25x is hard to beat, especially with a Spuhr mount. Of the reticles given, the P4F, H2CMR and Klein are my favorites in that order. If you want a slightly smaller scope (but not by much) the 3-20x is a nice alternative. The 3-20x only comes with the MTC locking turrets while the 5-25x can be had with a few options.

Get the Spuhr cantilever mount without cant if your rifle has 30 MOA built in as it will be more than sufficient.

-Sean
 
#12
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

I'd get the 5-25 and not look back. I've had both and the reticle on the 3-20 is very difficult to see below 7x. The size difference isn't significant enough between the two to make a difference. I wasn't impressed with the 3-20 enough to chose it over the 5-25. I never run my optics below 8x anyways and would rather have the option of more magnification if needed.
 
#13
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Wow! Just wow. I'm very impressed with this online community. Was very hesitant to post my question as I seriously thought I was going to get a bunch of "hey you stupid newbie" replies. And thank you for your inputs and very quick I might add. Everyone has there own opinions and with scopes it's a personal one. But for those of us without access to test drive these high end scopes your input is priceless.

I like the thought of the 3-20 but as some of you have stated, probably better off getting the 5-25. Maybe the 3-20 will be mine down the road. I'm interested to hear why nobody likes or has recommended the MSR reticle? And do those of you with the H2CMR, how is the busyness and thickness of the lines compared to the P4L fein. Is there a tread that details the benefits and break down of the H2CMR?

Looks like the SUPHR mount is the one I'm getting and will definitely be purchasing from mile high as I have only heard great things about them.
 
#14
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5-25 PMII CCW MIL/MIL w/ H2CMR and don't look back... and yes Spuhr mount is top notch! </div></div>

Could not agree more.

The H2CMR is a great reticle for every application and by far one of my favorites. I have really come to appreciate the H58 but either one would be highly recommended depending on your intended range and target size. All my 5-25s have either the H58, H59 or H2CMR.
The Klein is also a good choice, as is the MSR, just not my personal preference.
 
#15
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

good thread, I wanted to ask the exact same questions.

What's the reason for CCW (I had to look it up)
is counter clock wise just a preference thing?
 
#16
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

It is a preference thing. Most scopes made in the US or Japan are CCW. Many American shooters have multiple scopes and want them to all turn the same direction. At one point, I was shooting two Zeiss scopes, two NF scopes, and a few Leupolds. The Zeiss scopes always screwed me up if I didn't look at the turret before turning. I sold off my Ziess scopes and when I bought a Bender, I made damn sure it was CCW. I don't want differences. Some people simply don't care either way and will look at the turret and turn "turn the direction it goes up".
 
#17
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donaudi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm interested to hear why nobody likes or has recommended the MSR reticle? </div></div>

I was wondering about that too.
 
#18
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

i like the msr reticle, it just depends on what i'm doing. not only that, on an ar10 i would go with a 3-20. personally i find it tough to beat the good old p4 fine.
 
#19
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Yes, for me initially the glass will be going on my AR308. This is to keep cost lower while I practice and start stretching out. I figured that I would be able to purchase one optic then transfer it later to a dedicated LR bolt gun with a better LR specific cartridge. At that time, I would have adapted well to that scope. Also, as some of you have stated it would be better to have the extra magnification.

In regards to not purchasing one with the MTC... I was going to get the LP/MTC/LT (tan one?), but it has the MTC. Should I be getting the LP version? Can the tan one (PSC) version be ordered with the standard double turn turrets? Also, what features or enhancements would I be not getting by going with the LP versus the PSC? Or is this not even that big of a deal, and the tan one with MTC is ok? Sorry for hammering you guys with questions total newb here.

Lastly, I know the CCW turrets are a personal preference thing. I doubt I would sell this scope, but if that time comes do you guys think getting the CCW's would have a better resale value? Would it make a big difference or none at all?
 
#20
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Since some people won't buy a CW scope, you are isolating them if you do decide to sell it.

I believe the only way to get the tan scope is to get MTC.

Personally, I like standard DT knobs. Lots of options, get what suits your needs, not the needs of the hypothetical next owner.
 
#21
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both scopes rock, and sphur from mile high is the only way to go! </div></div>

I just picked up my second 5x25-56 SB from Mile High Shooting with a Sphur mount and loved it like Randy said I would and just ordered my second one for my other 5x25-56 SB :0) Thanks Randy if you read this!!!! You were right!!!

Mike
 
#22
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

I have the P4F and the MSR. I really like both!

I use them mainly for Tactical Rifle Matches and they do fantastically! The MSR is nice for ranging targets and my P4F is just an all-around great reticle!

Can't go wrong either way....it's an S&B!!!
 
#23
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donaudi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In regards to not purchasing one with the MTC... I was going to get the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">LP</span></span>/MTC/LT (tan one?), but it has the MTC. Should I be getting the LP version? Can the tan one (PSC) version be ordered with the standard double turn turrets? Also, what features or enhancements would I be not getting by going with the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">LP</span></span> versus the PSC? </div></div>

Just to clarify things a bit, the LP simply means that is has illumination (L) and parallax adjustment (P). Non-illuminated versions are designated as PMII/P and illuminated versions are PMII/LP.
The non-ill. PMII/P models are currently only available in the 3-12 and 4-16 variants.

Also, the locking MTC is currently the only option for the tan 5-25s and all 3-20's.
 
#24
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Thanks for clarifying things up. So if I was to go the standard non-MTC route it would be the PM II/ LP. Am I correct in saying that the tan 5-25's only difference between the model above is the color, MTC with locks (no internal upgrades)?

The only thing I'm having some issues deciding the the reticle. Does any one have a plus and minus pro's and con's write up between the P4LF, H2CMR, KLEIN, and the MSR? I would really appreciate it. Like K stared earlier, I don't have a chance to look at these in person nd I'm trying to make a best gestamate.
 
#25
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

I like the MSR reticle. The Klein is my second choice.
The P4F does not have a half-mil hash mark.
MTC knobs suck, as do locking turrets.
You don't need 25x. But you do need 10M.

And if you don't know what you want because you've never seen one, then you don't yet need to buy one. Four grand is a lot of money to spend on a whim - even if you do have the money to spend. Take the four grand, buy a 10x Super Sniper, take two week-long PR courses with it and then you'll know for sure what you want.
 
#26
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: donaudi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for clarifying things up. So if I was to go the standard non-MTC route it would be the PM II/ LP. Am I correct in saying that the tan 5-25's only difference between the model above is the color, MTC with locks (no internal upgrades)?

The only thing I'm having some issues deciding the the reticle. Does any one have a plus and minus pro's and con's write up between the P4LF, H2CMR, KLEIN, and the MSR? I would really appreciate it. Like K stared earlier, I don't have a chance to look at these in person nd I'm trying to make a best gestamate. </div></div>

The only difference between the two is the color and the annoying MTC locking turrets. I really don't see the need for the "Tan" model and it's huge price jump from the standard 5-25 PMII with the standard DT turrets. It's the tacticool price I guess?
 
#27
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the MSR reticle. The Klein is my second choice.
The P4F does not have a half-mil hash mark.
MTC knobs suck, as do locking turrets.
You don't need 25x. But you do need 10M.

And if you don't know what you want because you've never seen one, then you don't yet need to buy one. Four grand is a lot of money to spend on a whim - even if you do have the money to spend. Take the four grand, buy a 10x Super Sniper, take two week-long PR courses with it and then you'll know for sure what you want. </div></div>

I can't agree more with Graham, well put! Honestly if the color of the scope is a concern of yours then you need more knowledge of the basics. I'm not knocking you just saying at almost 4k for a scope you should know how to use it and what reticles are more in tune with your shooting needs.
 
#28
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

My uncle started my shooting lessons when I was six years old. That was fifty seven years ago. This week I received my first Schmidt and Bender following a six month lay-away plan. It is a Zenith 3x12x50 flash dot #9. It will be mounted on my first custom bolt action, built on a 700 trued action, with a Rock Creek 308 - 11.25 twist barrel. Still waiting on my McMillan Game Scout stock. It will be used to hunt deer in North Mississippi.

Have a blessed day!
 
#29
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

Have used the Klein, P4F and H2CMR and find the H2CMR the best all around out of the 3. With it's easy to see hollow dots, .2 mil marks on the horizontal, .5 mil marks on the vertical and with .1 mil marks between the vertical 2 and 3 mil marks it can do everything any of the others can do and more. The .2 mil marks make wind and mover holds so easy. The hollow dots make holds and seeing the reticle down on 5x easier. Also the whole reticle illuminates.

Having never used the MSR personally but having used many other reticles and studying it, I will still give my impression on it. I see it as basically a P4F with slightly thicker lines, a .5 mil center break instead of the .8 break in the P4F, and a "L" mil bracket. It costs about $200 over the standard reticle cost. The mil bracket is nice if ranging but you can do the same with the H2CMR right on the reticle.

Here are some H2CMR and P4F pics I have posted many times before here. I will go down from 25x to 5x showing the H2CMR first and then the P4F pic so you can compare. It's out to 400 yards and the round steel is 8". As usual don't hold the image against the scope as I suck at taking through the scope pics.
wink.gif


25x
P7200207.jpg

P9270807.jpg


20x
P7200208.jpg

Didn't have a pic of P4F at 20x

15x
P7200209.jpg

P9270808.jpg


10x
P7200211.jpg

P9270803.jpg


5x
P7200213.jpg

P9270811.jpg


On the scopes themselves the standard dual turn knobs are excellent. I would recommend the 5-25 with standard dual turn knobs and H2CMR reticle. That said i have a 3-20 with the locking MTC knobs and the MTC feature is better than other brands I have used. It's not as heavy and deep and I can actually get out of the MTC to the .1 mil marks before and after it without over shooting like others with heavier detents. I also like the locking feature for the windage as I don't dal wind but hold it so once set when i zero I just lock it and I don't have to worry about it shifting during movement at matches.
 
#30
Re: Help with Schmidt and Bender purchase...

I've got the tan 5-25 MTC P4F on my desert tan McMillan and it looks good. My GAP Hospitaller 6.5 CM wears the 5-25 traditional DT turrets in P4F also and I prefer this (traditional) model. I never had the desire for the H2CMR reticle until I looked thru one in NC a few weeks back.
My wife told me if I buy a 3rd S&B she'd kick me so hard I'd taste shoe polish.
So-- get the 5-25 PM11 CCW DT in H2CMR and 'cover your ass'.
 
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