Hello all! This is my first post, although I've skimmed through here from time to time. I need some help/advise on which reticle to choose for a vortex gen 3 razor, the MOA which is a BDC reticle, or the MRAD. My only LPVO is a strike eagle and it has the BDC and I have been pretty happy with it over all, however I have recently purchased an SR-15 and want to put some better glass on it. I'm torn between the BDC reticle and the MRAD. Since the optic will mainly be used on a 5.56 gun, and possibly a 308 from time to time, the BDC should work pretty well trying to hit ipsc steel targets, however the BDC only goes out to 600, and will only really work with those 2 calibers. I've never used MRAD before, however my friends seem to think it's the way to go and I have the ability to use it with other calibers if I ever choose, although I doubt I ever will. You guys are the experts so I'm interested to hear what you guys thoughts are, and if maybe I didn't think of something. Thanks in advance!
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Help with vortex razor gen 3 1-10
- Thread starter Boostedcoyote
- Start date
Meh... Both will work, my thoughts are that BDC's are never really that accurate so I would prefer a something like the mrad. For me its a more naturual process to know that a certain range is say around a 5mil hold vs trying to hold with a scale that was really set up for a specific round and barrel length.
Now if you are going to keep this optic mounted on 1 rifle with say a 14.5 barrel and only shoot 855, I think that could work as kind of a set it and forget it type of an optic
Now if you are going to keep this optic mounted on 1 rifle with say a 14.5 barrel and only shoot 855, I think that could work as kind of a set it and forget it type of an optic
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I'll second what Gunner10 said.
Acquiring dope and data first, and then using the reticle for holdovers is going to be more precise than a BDC, which is just a generic "one size fits all" kind of thing. Especially at distances over 600 yards.
Acquiring dope and data first, and then using the reticle for holdovers is going to be more precise than a BDC, which is just a generic "one size fits all" kind of thing. Especially at distances over 600 yards.
Not exactly
The EBR-9 MOA reticle is a tree reticle with elevation and windage major subtensions every 4 MOA. It does have a BDC embedded in the wind tree, but you can ignore it because ever major hashmark down from center is 4 MOA.
When in doubt RTFM: https://vortexoptics.com/media/wysiwyg//sub_RazorHD3_EBR-9_moa_1-10x24.jpg
It works exactly like the EBR-9 MIL, it's just in different units.
Pick whichever one is in units you like best.
EBR-9 MOA
EBR-9 MRAD
It's always worthwhile to run some numbers through Strelok Pro to evaluate whether a BDC reticle is going to work for you.
I built my entire rifle and ammo around the Gen3's BDC, and, surprise, it works great for me. Some people forget that's an option, and it's not necessarily a terrible one in all circumstances.
I built my entire rifle and ammo around the Gen3's BDC, and, surprise, it works great for me. Some people forget that's an option, and it's not necessarily a terrible one in all circumstances.
The EBR-9 MOA isn't laid out in 4 MOA increments, there's definitely a BDC in there. It follows the typical Vortex subtension scheme down to 600 but with added details. Past that there's a 2.75 MOA gap until you get to 20 MOA where it's a 1 MOA increments to 32 MOA.
I reviewed a Gen III 1-10 a while back with the MOA reticle and ran some numbers with both 5.56 and .308 in different bullet weights to make this comparison graphic. Nothing is perfect so to get it to work with the different bullet weights requires some tweeking at 50 yards but it should work out with common 5.56 and .308. For the length of time I had the Gen III, I wasn't disappointed I had the MOA reticle, it wasn't that hard to map out but MRAD would've been my preference if I was buying it.
I reviewed a Gen III 1-10 a while back with the MOA reticle and ran some numbers with both 5.56 and .308 in different bullet weights to make this comparison graphic. Nothing is perfect so to get it to work with the different bullet weights requires some tweeking at 50 yards but it should work out with common 5.56 and .308. For the length of time I had the Gen III, I wasn't disappointed I had the MOA reticle, it wasn't that hard to map out but MRAD would've been my preference if I was buying it.
The MRAD reticle is enormously more flexible. Yea, it's not a TT or ZCO optic, but it's high quality and adaptable. Make your own BDC on whatever rifle and ammo combo you opt to use by doing a rough calculation on a ballistic calc. and then shoot to confirm / fine-tune.
The graphic I found in the vortex website didn't have all the detail that yours has.
Now that I look real close at the distance between the vertical subtentions I can see they're not equidistant.
I stand corrected.
But you're right it does line up close. And for a hunting or battel rifle, the MOA one would be my choice.
My first BDC was a Zeiss Conquest with Rapid Z reticle, but I quickly realized the mess that different ballistics and atmospherics wrecked on using that reticle efficiently, then I saw the light with mrad and never looked back, dumped all my SFP and moa glass. I mention that because I just bought a Gen III from Scott at Liberty Optics and I originally put in the order for the MRAD reticle; however, I then changed it, as much as I've harped on BDC over the past few years, I decided to give it another try because I'm looking for speed more than anything. If I'm wrong and I hate it I figure I can sell it and not lose too much (being as they are on lengthy back orders right now) since they are in high demand.
Interesting info on the Liberty website. The backlog for an MRAD is 60 days and 90 days for the MOA. I guess the question is are the MOA models more popular or in lower demand so Vortex makes less of them? Thanks for posting the link. I have an MRAD on backorder from EuroOptics. I have talked with some of the smaller optics sellers and they say dealing with Vortex is like opening Christmas presents. One month you may get one or two of the models you have on order and the next month they ship you 25. At least I now have a feel for how long I need to wait.
Thank you for your input. Seems like you've had a good amount of experience with the MOA reticle and still prefer the MRAD. Would you still prefer the MRAD for speed? Seems like the BDC is accurate enough and you don't have to remember anything when on the timer, where the MRAD you'll have to remember the holds. That said, I'm leaning toward MRAD because of its versatility if I want to put it on something else that may not be 5.56/308 or push out further, It's also something new for me to learn.
A BDC needs to be paired with one load and you can't expect extreme precision with it. That's not what they're for.
This might be what I do as well, but the other way. I'll get the MRAD and if it's not what I'm looking for in sure someone would trade me for an MOA or I can see it and buy one.
MOA is obsolete and is slowly dying (not fast enough)
MRAD is easier math, smaller numbers and based on a 10 scale. Faster and more intuitive, not to mention the entire industry and mil talks in.... Mils.
MRAD is easier math, smaller numbers and based on a 10 scale. Faster and more intuitive, not to mention the entire industry and mil talks in.... Mils.
I didn't have a ton of time on it but enough to learn the reticle and map it out. My preference is always for MRAD because it simplifies things across calibers and bullet weights. Speed wise I don't think there would be enough of a difference to say one is better. I know that with my SPR zeroed to 100 that my drops from 200 to 600 are about .4, 1.1, 2.0, 3.1, and 4.3. Even if it's an oddball range like 473, I know that 2.8 gets me in the wheelhouse. If I have a good handle on my dope then it won't matter, mrad or bdc.
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That's what my friends have been telling me, however I've been using MOA for a while and it's easy for me to understand. That said, everyone says that mrad is easier so I'd like to learn how to use it.
Taken on their own, MOA isn't easier or better than MRAD and vice versa. As long as the subtensions and knobs match, it's all just numbers.
In this context, with the GEN 3's MOA BDC and MRAD reticle, I feel the MRAD is easier to work with. I say that because you're not trying to bend the reticle to your will by tuning zeros and getting as close as possible to the subtensions. The EBR-9 MOA works but like I said, my preference is always for MRAD.
In this context, with the GEN 3's MOA BDC and MRAD reticle, I feel the MRAD is easier to work with. I say that because you're not trying to bend the reticle to your will by tuning zeros and getting as close as possible to the subtensions. The EBR-9 MOA works but like I said, my preference is always for MRAD.
This thread is very relevant. I have always used irons or red dots…. I’m looking my first LVPO. I want to be able to bring the rifle up and lay down fast fire as accurate as possible. I have been hearing bdc was the way to go, mrad works too……. I’m looking to get the vortex gen 3 and don’t want to make a costly mistake….. after reading everything I think I’ll go mrad figure my own “bdc” out of it….. I’d like some reinforcement it’s the way to go before pulling the trigger
MRAD would be the way I'd go. Look up speed drop factor, you can turn your mrad reticle into a quasi-BDC pretty easily. I did it yesterday shooting 55gr FMJ using my PST II 1-6 and got easy hits from 160 to 474 yards without really thinking about it.
Die in agony, Communist Biden-voting safe space non-binary gender-fluid ANTIFA hound from the depths of hell!
I don't think that's right, it doesn't have PVS in front of it or say Thermal, this can't be yours
Holy crap! When you’re right, you’re right. Please accept these images as my formal apology.I don't think that's right, it doesn't have PVS in front of it or say Thermal, this can't be yours
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Now we're talking. May I inquire as to what that little piece of eye candy is sitting in front of the Gen III (yes, showing my ignorance of Thermal gear). At least you and I have one thing in common - we both like 300 BLK
Now we're talking. May I inquire as to what that little piece of eye candy is sitting in front of the Gen III (yes, showing my ignorance of Thermal gear). At least you and I have one thing in common - we both like 300 BLK
In the first two it’s a UTM-x. In the third one, it’s a UTC-x.
Welcome to TheHorta’s worldOh my goodness I just looked up the price on those thermals….. that’s like buying a slightly used vehicle
the prob with bdc's, at least in my experience, are that the hash marks never seem to match up with my actual drops. i have my 1-6 razor zeroed at 200. at 300 i need to put the 300 hash as the top of the target; at 400 i need to hold between the 4 & 500yd hashes and at 500 i need to hold between the 5 & 600 hashes. i guess that's easier than remembering what moa or mil to hold at a given distance. for 2 & 3 gun where the targets are somewhat generous, the bdc works good enough.
Try zeroing at 500 instead of at 200 as mentioned above. It is more important the hash marks on the BDC be more "accurate" at distance than they are closer in.
that's an interesting idea! the prob is with my old eyes and only 6x magnification, and of course atmospherics out to that distance, getting a precise zero (for the 500yd hash) at 500 prob won't be all that precise. right now i do know my drops and holds from 25-500 (the farthest my matches go) so i prob should leave well enough alone. but maybe over the summer i will play around with that.
Dave, what's the ballistics of what you're working with? Bullet, bullet weight, MV, sight height?
well i have two loads... generally pmc bronze 55 for all the stuff inside 200. then 69smk @2571 for 200+. sight height 2.5". i zeroed at 200 with the 69's. i've shot and know my drops on the 55 out to 200 and then ditto for the 69 out to 500. the prob is my bdc i think is made for 50 vmax flying way faster than my smk's. given the 3-500yd shots are only a couple per match (well, if i don't miss too much ...), i'd rather have some awkward holdovers for those and not have to worry about holdovers for the close stuff which is the vast majority of the shooting.
The BDC is not for the 50s going fast. I run 55 BTHP and 75 BTHP in my 1-6x with the JM-1 reticle and the 55s from my 18" AR are right on the BDC to 500 and the 75s are 25 yards off. That's to say I zero at 50/200 and then the first mark which should be 300 is 275 and next that should be 400 is 375 etc. I would have to go look up my velocities but the BDC is very close. Even in the 1-10 I have on my .308 with 168 BTHP they were right on to 550 yards.
Here is the reticle PDF from the Vortex site on the JM-1 reticle. Gives some info on the reticle and what loads it was made for.
vortexoptics.widen.net
VTX_M-00179-0_RZR_HD-G2-E_JM-1-BDC_MOA_RS_P_RM_WEB.pdf
The efficacy of BDC reticles can be argued until the cows come home but I still think Vortex has one of the best BDC subtension schemes out there save for mils. Their zero, 2.4, 5.6, 9.5, 14.6 subtension is carried across all their BDC's, only the designs change based on the model but it works well for common factory 5.56 like 55, 62, 75, 77 gr bullets. You may have to play with your zero offset but you can generally get them to line up pretty good.
davsco, I ran some quick numbers on yours but man I just think the MV isn't going to let it line up but like you said if you know your drops and they're working for you, I'd keep on keepin' on.
davsco, I ran some quick numbers on yours but man I just think the MV isn't going to let it line up but like you said if you know your drops and they're working for you, I'd keep on keepin' on.
i thought i read they designed it around a 45 or 50 vmax but yeah looking at my notes, a 55 fmj at 3050 muzzle vel seems to line up real good on the jm-1 with a 200yd zero out to 600yds.
i've always just gone with the "heavies" for >200 for wind and bc benefits. maybe i'll play around with 55's and see if they're similarly accurate. but i spent some time at the range a few years back and figuring out poa/poi with what i have and that def helped my longer range 2/3 gun results, no surprise.
Mine aren’t going that fast. I remember that. Take a look at the link above and it gives info on the loads it’s designed to work around and working with other data. Should help some.
actually i just threw generic 55g fmj at 3100 in my phone's Shooter app and it got me within an inch at each distance. i do see that's faster than what vortex says is needed, not sure why. pmc 55 out of my jp barrel is only getting 2727 so using that won't get me on the hash marks either. i know my holds so i'm ok but it sure would be nice to not have to worry about that and get full benefit from the bdc reticle. of course not every target is exactly in 100yd increments so one way or another you're not using the exact hash marks...
Ok, hear me out. If you zeroed the 55gr PMC 1/2" low at 50, the BDC boils down to 100 yards at the crosshairs, then 225 yards, 322 yds, 412 yds, 506 yds. That'd be a MOA or less difference out to 500, your stated max range, so it could work.
i appreciate you working on a possible solution!! first thing i need to do is see how accurate the pmc is at any distance. then i need to play with bc's and see the wind effect vs the 69 smk's. i def don't want to give up accuracy or a lot of windage just to have 'easier' holds. i have some research and playing around on my side to do...
For me, 55gr FMJ from PMC and Magtech have been accurate enough for steel out to 474 yards. I was out Sunday zeroing my new Vortex PST II 1-6 and confirming my dope. Now, I have the mil reticle in mine but I was one shot one hit on 6" steel at 200 and two for two on the chest sized plate at 300. Went over to the longer range side and played around at 160, 283, 318, and 474. Targets at 160 were Skinny Sammies, 283 was a flasher target, 318 was a BC zone, and 474 was a full size IPSC. Neither of them presented any issues and I got hits easy with just my Game Changer on the top rung of a cattle gate.
I think Vortex does a great job with their BDC. I have three different loads I shoot at distance a lot, 69's at 2800fps, 77's at 2750 and 62's at 2850. All zeroed at 50 yards. Here are their holds, respectively:
Doesn't get much better than that. In slightly faster or slower barrels I can adjust zero distance a little and still be in business. I have one scope with the VMR-2 mil reticle and no amount of adjustments can get it close to being a brainless BDC unless I started shooting huge full sized IPSC targets or something.
Doesn't get much better than that. In slightly faster or slower barrels I can adjust zero distance a little and still be in business. I have one scope with the VMR-2 mil reticle and no amount of adjustments can get it close to being a brainless BDC unless I started shooting huge full sized IPSC targets or something.
I should have gone with my gut instinct that 600 was too short, if Vortex had done the BDC to 800 I think I would have given it a chance but since this was going on a large frame gas gun capable of 800 or more I decided the mil tree would have been better. I was going to grab the mil version but then too many other shinty objects caught my eye. As a whole I think the G3 1-10 is an outstanding LPVO and if you are shooting 5.56 or don’t have a need to go beyond 600 then the BDC may serve you well.
