Rifle Competition Events Here’s a thought

[Dead Eye Dick]

Seems that everyone is always up in arms over how does and who does NOT get a reshoot.

Solution, Match director determines how many rounds are needed to shoot the match ( Such as - 79 targets, need 79 rounds)

Everyone gets to shoot 79 rounds. (or however many the match director says it will take). Competitors can shoot as many times as they like to hit a target, once their 79 rounds are shot (or as said, however many the match director says it will take) then their day is done. Of course, once a target is hit from the position it was supposed to be hit from, additional hits won’t count.

 

[dimar1492]

So if you had a couple tough stages in the morning you also don't get to finish the the stages at the end of the day? Sounds terrible for new shooters and morale in general.

Would also mess up the match flow with competitors dropping out of squads randomly as they've expended all of their allowed rounds.

 

[Namekagon]

My vote would be no re-shoots, with very few exceptions. Things like the target falling off the post midway through your shoot, or a call for cease-fire due to safety concern, ect. Stuff that is completely out of the shooters control. Beyond that, nope.

 

[Lowlight]

The problem is the cliques,

One clique gets X treatment, the other Clique gets Y, and the individuals in the field get Z, hence the drama

The better shooters who attend more events are wired to ask for more or push for accommodations where the new shooter and most individuals know it's just a game and it doesn't matter, so they let it go. Lastly, the ROs know who the rockstars are, so they are more likely to agree with a "pro" before ruling against them. Even if they do rule, No, the flood will start with the squad pressuring him to cave in.

As long as some are hyper-competitive they will always advocate for themselves, and the first time a friend bends, the floodgates are open,

The more rules, the more enforcement, the more enforcement the less fair it will seem when there is no standard to begin with. The Series has an exit, it's an individual event that is put on by an MD who is not employed by the series. So if that MD goes outside the box even an inch, the Series has no recourse to bring it back into line after the fact.

You are interpreting pages of rules from Series, to MD to RO to Competitor, none of whom were educated on the actual intent so it's open to several layers of variation from match to match

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Of course this was done a bit tongue in cheek, but getting people thinking, and talking and putting out ideas is the point.

Now, like Namekagon said we really don’t need reshoots, unless a target becomes unavailable to a shooter who is in the middle of a stage. I would go one further, a call for cease fire, once cleared, the shooter gets to start, where he left off, with the time remaining on his stage, not back to the start of the stage. (Unless it is the shooter’s fault for the cease fire. Then he’s done).

Of course, with all the current arguments over reshoots, heck, let em shoot as many times as they want. Who cares about flow, its a game and winning is the only thing.

And yes, that bridge I have is still for sale.

 

[Lowlight]

I was told nobody cares about this stuff

 

[Rob01]

"Grow the sport!" Too soon?

 

[Lowlight]

Still waiting for an example of growing the sport ?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

You are interpreting pages of rules from Series, to MD to RO to Competitor, none of whom were educated on the actual intent so it's open to several layers of variation from match to match

I have been involved in four competitive sports in my blessedly long life. Parhaps the most closely related to competitive shooting is water skiing. I was a certified judge as well as a competitor. To become a judge, one had to go through a fairly lengthy process of training. Through each process the aspiring candidate was tested for knowledge and capability. And, everytime a person moved up, he/she was again tested after again endured a lengthy training period. It was a bitch, but rules are rules and it mattered (well not always but that’s another story)

So, we have IHMSA where experience shooters oversee the match. Rule books are out and ”the” MD closely supervises the match. Safety issues are all but non-existent because everyone is watched closely. (Target setters are downrange after every five shots to reset targets). Reshoots exist but only when a target becomes not available to a competitor during his round of shooting at that bank. We all clear and ground all handguns at the end of the round. Nothing else happens until that is Done.

Target falls in the correct order, you get a hit, doesn’t fall or wrong target falls, you don’t get a hit. Very simple.

Yes it is a game. The handguns used ares simply not safe to use in any other sport where handguns would normally be appropriate. Yes they have problems (dying for one, game is too hard to sustain itself)

So, we have RO’s, who have no training, who are trying to judge hits and misses. We have really top “rockstars” who we try to impress by giving them a bit of leeway, afterall, the RO’s strict adherence to the rules might keep them from earning the very points they need to attend and win the AG cup. Lots of money there.

Saw it once happen in waterskiing. I was the gate judge and the son of a rockstar missed the gate. The boat judge gave him the gate and the far judge (who was a quarter mile away) could not see anything so he gave the gate. The young man went on to ski two more full passes. Since this was a judged tournament, his score counted for his standing in the seeding of the regional and national tournaments. Was this fair? The kid missed the entrance gate by three feet. In fairness, it was early in the morning and the sun was in his eyes, but it wasn’t in my eyes.

So, my real solution….If the damn target becomes unavailable to the shooter in the middle of his round, he gets a once chance to hit it after it is reset. No reshooting the stage. If the stage is 90 seconds and there are ten targets, when the target is reset, he gets 9 seconds to shoot the target, from the original starting position. Period. If he is Will Kirste or if he is Lowlight, he gets 9 second to shoot the damn thing. Period. Nothing else gets a reshoot.

Now for real fun, Brenda and I trained horses when we were much younger. Quite successful when You consider that horses make trainers, not trainers making horses. We had One Good One. And she was good. But as far as judging, send the judge a case of his favorite bourbon before the show. (We never did and just had to depend on the honesty of the judges) However, our one good horse, S. Fahsion’s Flirt, was too good to ignore. So she won her fair share. (Almost)

My favorite tale. A famous and very respected doctor gave $100,000 to the chief judge at the National Celebration of the Tennessee Walking Horse show to assure that his horse became World Grand Champion. The horse was tied in 5th place. The Doctor went to the FBI to complain that his Bribe was not honored. Never learned how that one turned out.

 

[Lowlight]

I don't think any of this current drama is about a reshoot as much as it was about the treatment of the competitors

It's the inconsistent application of the rules, then the fallout, then the response to the fallout

When we were filming the Crossfire episode yesterday Chris and I was talking about the local matches taking place in WY, the WYCO Stuff that is currently being shot. We were talking about the lack of rules, the fact out here it's, less is more. Same with CD matches, you show up to the staging area, it's blind. You get called forward and immediately, there is the pin, left and right limit, do you understand the COF (it's all the same, find it, range it, engage it. ) go...

You can use anything you want, you can move left or right, you just have to find the target, range the target, and hit the target letting the RO know what target you are shooting. No other rules ....

If you want to get up, and move 10ft closer, do it, who cares, but when you stack rules you have to enforce them, and equally that is the root of the problem.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

My thought is make the COF rules as simple as possible. Then enforce them to the exact letter. No exceptions. That is what I liked about the IHMSA. Match director calls

Shooters to the line
Load
(after 30 seconds)
Fire
(after 2 Minutes)
Cease Fire; Clear and Ground all weapons
Make the line Safe
(after the MD assures that the line is Safe)
Target setters down range.

Target falls that is not the shooters fault and is not the one that was supposed to fall
Shooter gets an alibi
Otherwise You hit what you hit and that is all you get…no more chances.

Why is PRS so much harder (excepting PRS does not have to reset 65 pound rams)

 

[kindabitey]

"Grow the sport!" Too soon?

That's a code phrase for "We need to replace all the people we pissed off"