Gunsmithing Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

wjwill

wjwill

Off road Junkie
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Nov 28, 2007
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East KY and Georgia
#1
Lastnight, I spent a few hours talking to JLM in the shout box about my rifle one on one. We went through EVERYTHING on the rifle from different ammo i used to all the screws. JLM told me to take the barreled action out of the stock so I did and took pics with my phone for him to see the bedding. JLM told me to contact rsroscoe in the morning about looking at my rifle.

So this morning, I got a wild hair up my ass and took off driving from New Orleans to Shreveport with hope that William would look at my rifle. When I was between Baton Rouge and Lafayette, I gave William a call and explained to him what was going on. I told him I would pay him $100.00 to look at the rifle and tell me what is wrong with it. He agreed and I continued my 7 hour drive.

Well I finally got to William's house. We introduced each other and shook hands. He told me to get the rifle out of the truck so I did and brought it in his shop. He set the rifle up on a bench and looked over it and asked some questions. He noticed the tang of the action was sitting about 1/8 of an inch higher than the stock. He then removed the stock and explained to me what he seen. <span style="color: #FF0000">The rifle was only bedded on the recoil lug, under the barrel, and under the trigger guard. It didn't have any pillar blocks at all and the Tang was being pulled down from the screw and stressing the stock. Under the tang was the factory stuff from McMillan that HART never removed. They just left it there and didn't modify the stock so the action would fit well. Below are the pictures.</span>

William Roscoe is a stand up guy in my books and he will get any and all future builds from me. And I'm paying him to redo the bedding on the Ruger M77.


DSCI0450.jpg

DSCI0451.jpg

DSCI0452.jpg
 
#3
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

OK well I have followed this rifle is messed up debate from the beginning and quiet honestly your spouting off about how Hart sucks and POS rifle outshot you and yada yada yada is bordering ridiculous.

Can you please explain to me what you plan on improving on the rifle by fixing a problem that doesn't seem to exist when someone else shooting the rifle (per your OWN thread..see below quote)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">UPDATE:

I took the rifle to Don Cracy in Independence, Louisiana. We separated the stock from the action and retorqed everything down. Then we went to his private range and used a couple of his hand loads. The first three of his loads touched at 1/2" group. Then we tried 168 grain federal factory. The factory ammo had the groups spreading out a bit. Next we tried 147 grain winchester factory and he shot 3 rounds for a 1 inch group. So he went back to his hand loads and loaded a hotter round. When he shot the hotter round, if shot through the same hole and punched a .314 group at 200 yards. So he says it wasn't the rifle and he believes that its the ammo I am using. He also suggested that I load my own ammo instead of buying factory.</span></span>
</div></div>


I am not saying Hart cannot mess up and put bad things out of their shop but I am giving you forewarning on getting on forum and shoutbox talking about how bad Hart sucks and such, you may want to research and notice how many world records (BR) have been set with Hart systems. You are opening yourself up to a debate you cannot win!! YOU need alot more trigger time and education before you can start argueing what does and does not work/perform.


Now yesterday in shoutbox someone questioned you on the groups Don Geraci shot and you stated that you did not see him shoot the groups cause his head was blocking the spotting scope and that you only seen them after they were done...Explain the difference in you watching them thru spotting scope and you seeing the groups when he was done???
 
#4
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

The plot thickens.

I have seen some of the Shout Box conversation and even asked a couple questions myself while it was happening over a couple days time.

It was clear that Hart Barrels did the barrel install but were they supposed to do a full bedding job too or just what was done? Only wondering.

Either way it's good to finally know what the issue was and you will be able to start shooting again soon.

Good luck.
 
#5
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

JWILL,
WTF this is funny as hell. Are you saying Don Geraci did not shoot the groups, because his head was in the way of that scope. I will tell you sir if that is the case, you are a dumb fuck.
I do not think Don was particularly impressed with the bedding himself, but said the rifle shot okay. If there is not a problem Don is not going to fix anything. I am thinking maybe you should go back to Geraci and tell him you are sorry for your insinuations and get him to give you some loading and shooting lessons.
I wonder how bad your going to slander wnroscoe when he does his usual excellent work rebedding your rifle and you still cannot shoot it.


 
#7
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

FWIW, I played around w/ a Howa 1500 sporter weight in .243 with a laminate stock. After every step I did toward making it more accurate, I took it to the range for some 5 shot groups to mark my progress. It was a 1.5 " @ 100 yds. out of the box. Did the trigger, biggest notable improvement. Free floated the barrel. Helped some. Just to see what happened, after I relieved the action area of the stock prior to bedding, I put it back together and tried it.(did not relieve tang, or lug area). Accuracy went to hell in a hand basket.
For shits and giggles, I only beeded the lug and tang areas.I left the rest of the action to stock area "floated" if you will. My reasoning was, there is just not that much area around the mag well that was actually benefitting from the bedding compound.
Put her together and what do ya know, first three out of 5 were tight. Let her cool, repeat, first three out of 5 were tight. A lil bigger than .5's. I should have gone back and bedded her right to actually see the difference. Maybe I will someday.But I'm satisfied with her, for her intended purpose.
Guess I'm just trying to say that decent accuracy can be obtained with a partial bedding job.A really ugly bedding job at that.
 
#8
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how bad your going to slander wnroscoe when he does his usual excellent work rebedding your rifle and you still cannot shoot it.
</div></div>

I'll be keeping records of my progress with pictures, test targets and ammo used.

Personally, I don’t like to see rifles partially bedded. I feel pillar bedding the recoil lug and rear tang area is an absolute must. Metal to metal contact is the key. I've seen it all too often when metal to metal contact wasn’t there (my rifles included) that accuracy suffered. I was told that this rifle was shooting 3"-4" groups at 100 yards with no consistency. I know I can improve that
wink.gif


As with all other rifles, quality ammo is key and shooter ability a must..............well see.
 
#9
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">UPDATE:

The first three of his loads touched at 1/2" group. Then we tried 168 grain federal factory. The factory ammo had the groups spreading out a bit. Next we tried 147 grain winchester factory and he shot 3 rounds for a 1 inch group. So he went back to his hand loads and loaded a hotter round. When he shot the hotter round, if shot through the same hole and punched a .314 group at 200 yards. So he says it wasn't the rifle and he believes that its the ammo I am using. He also suggested that I load my own ammo instead of buying factory.</span></span>
</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I was told that this rifle was shooting 3"-4" groups at 100 yards with no consistency. I know I can improve that
wink.gif



</div></div>

Seems nobody know what groups this rifle shoots lol, being it shoots 2 very distinct group sizes all pending on who is pulling trigger from what I am reading. No amount of gunsmith work can bring those 2 group sizes together.
 
#10
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Good thinking WN.

I am not taking up for hart, heck I think the bedding was insufficient also. And I am positive that it will be better when you finish.

The only issue I have with the original poster is his apparent insinuation that Don Geraci somehow did not shoot the groups he said he shot with the rifle because the OP could not see through the scope. I did not see the shout box conversations but trust Later's statement in the post above. All I can say is he is full of schit if he thinks that is going to fly. I know Don too well to believe such bullshit. Don can load and Don can shoot, apparently the original poster cannot.
 
#11
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good thinking WN.

I am not taking up for hart, heck I think the bedding was insufficient also. And I am positive that it will be better when you finish.

The only issue I have with the original poster is his apparent insinuation that Don Geraci somehow did not shoot the groups he said he shot with the rifle because the OP could not see through the scope. I did not see the shout box conversations but trust Later's statement in the post above. All I can say is he is full of schit if he thinks that is going to fly. I know Don too well to believe such bullshit. Don can load and Don can shoot, apparently the original poster cannot. </div></div>

I asked him about it earlier either today or last night I dont remember which. He said that since he couldnt see the target thru the scope he just assumed that they were going thru the same hole, now he just figures that it was only ONE hole and ONE bullet that hit the target.
 
#12
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

hmm thats funny how does a .314 ctc group equal one bullet hole. This guy apparently just cannot load or shoot. If Don Geraci tells you the moon is made of cheese get a spaceship and crackers. You do not shoot your way into the benchrest hall of fame or set a bunch world records not being able to shoot tiny groups.
 
#13
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK well I have followed this rifle is messed up debate from the beginning and quiet honestly your spouting off about how Hart sucks and POS rifle outshot you and yada yada yada is bordering ridiculous.

Can you please explain to me what you plan on improving on the rifle by fixing a problem that doesn't seem to exist when someone else shooting the rifle (per your OWN thread..see below quote)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wjwill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">UPDATE:

I took the rifle to Don Cracy in Independence, Louisiana. We separated the stock from the action and retorqed everything down. Then we went to his private range and used a couple of his hand loads. The first three of his loads touched at 1/2" group. Then we tried 168 grain federal factory. The factory ammo had the groups spreading out a bit. Next we tried 147 grain winchester factory and he shot 3 rounds for a 1 inch group. So he went back to his hand loads and loaded a hotter round. When he shot the hotter round, if shot through the same hole and punched a .314 group at 200 yards. So he says it wasn't the rifle and he believes that its the ammo I am using. He also suggested that I load my own ammo instead of buying factory.</span></span>
</div></div>


I am not saying Hart cannot mess up and put bad things out of their shop but I am giving you forewarning on getting on forum and shoutbox talking about how bad Hart sucks and such, you may want to research and notice how many world records (BR) have been set with Hart systems. You are opening yourself up to a debate you cannot win!! YOU need alot more trigger time and education before you can start argueing what does and does not work/perform.


Now yesterday in shoutbox someone questioned you on the groups Don Geraci shot and you stated that you did not see him shoot the groups cause his head was blocking the spotting scope and that you only seen them after they were done...Explain the difference in you watching them thru spotting scope and you seeing the groups when he was done???
</div></div>

Ya know LC, you'right. I do need alot more trigger time and I need to start reading about different ammo, reloading, and firearms in general. I just jumped in to this sport and thought I would be able to shoot groups like alot of you guys. I'm starting to find out the hard way that I can't and I need to practice ALOT. I do admit I was starting to get a little cocky at times over grouping a 22-250 at 100 yards. I am finding out now that no matter what I do, I need to relearn and start from scratch number one again.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sr15match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The plot thickens.

I have seen some of the Shout Box conversation and even asked a couple questions myself while it was happening over a couple days time.

It was clear that Hart Barrels did the barrel install but were they supposed to do a full bedding job too or just what was done? Only wondering.

Either way it's good to finally know what the issue was and you will be able to start shooting again soon.

Good luck. </div></div>

Sr15, I payed to have the rifle pillar bedded and to have the .308 barrel installed. Total cost of was 956 bucks.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JWILL,
WTF this is funny as hell. Are you saying Don Geraci did not shoot the groups, because his head was in the way of that scope. I will tell you sir if that is the case, you are a dumb fuck.
I do not think Don was particularly impressed with the bedding himself, but said the rifle shot okay. If there is not a problem Don is not going to fix anything. I am thinking maybe you should go back to Geraci and tell him you are sorry for your insinuations and get him to give you some loading and shooting lessons.
I wonder how bad your going to slander wnroscoe when he does his usual excellent work rebedding your rifle and you still cannot shoot it.
</div></div>

Eddy, I didn't want this to turn in to bad thing about Don Geraci. Don is a great person and I didn't mean any harm done to him over this ordeal. I also have not a single doubt in my head over how good of a shot he is. He has more than enough proof between targets, awards, and tropies to back his shooting and reloading. I tried to call him earlier today to see if I could go over there, go no answer. I am going to keep trying to get in touch with him. When I do, I'm going to ask if I can go over and talk to him and give him a face to face apology for letting this get out of hand and putting him in the middle of it.

I'm not going to slander wnroscoe. I spoke to him on the phone earlier today. I explained to him how I had the rifle in the rest trying to remove all human error. He explained to me what i was doing wrong. I asked him to teach me how to shoot when I go up there and he agreed he would.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinarms</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all of the best equipment can't make a bad shooter good. trigger time and reloading time is what is going to get your rifle shoot better. </div></div>

You're 100% correct on this. When I first got involved in bolt actions, I thought I could just jump in and swim with the sharks. Well, thats not the case anymore. I now see I have very long ways to go before I can even think about competing with most here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how bad your going to slander wnroscoe when he does his usual excellent work rebedding your rifle and you still cannot shoot it.
</div></div>

I'll be keeping records of my progress with pictures, test targets and ammo used.

Personally, I don’t like to see rifles partially bedded. I feel pillar bedding the recoil lug and rear tang area is an absolute must. Metal to metal contact is the key. I've seen it all too often when metal to metal contact wasn’t there (my rifles included) that accuracy suffered. I was told that this rifle was shooting 3"-4" groups at 100 yards with no consistency. I know I can improve that
wink.gif


As with all other rifles, quality ammo is key and shooter ability a must..............well see.
</div></div>


Thank you William for the reality check on the phone. I was getting to cocky over this whole issue and letting it get out of hand.
 
#14
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

There ya go wjwill, good on ya, just keep at it and don't get discouraged, you will get it. If you have the resources of William and Geraci, take as much of their advice as you can!! Stick with it, and remember a thick skin don't hurt
laugh.gif


Dave
 
#15
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

sounds like your on the right track...make sure and get the gun worked out like you said, but I'd put er on hold after that and get a descent .22 that will allow you to gain the practice and knowledge you will need for the .308 w/o burning up any more money on upgrades or .308 ammo.
 
#16
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

+1

Good for you Will.

No matter what happens keep most, it not all , bad comments about well established business to yourself. If you need to discuss a bad problem choose a mentor and Start a PM thread. If there is a deep seated problem at the business it can be sorted out and after they are notified they can deal with it. Or not.

I'll give you an example. There is a well regarded company, a sponsor here in fact, that enjoyed a great reputation. That business used to turn out a select line of very high quality items. And they had good customer service. Now they are making many items and are very busy. The customer service that grew the business initially is nonexistent now. And now everybody knows it and no one wants their products because of the poor support. They Still have a good product, just no support. I never had to say anything in the open forum. Just a PM and some personal conversation with the site owner and some moderators and a few shooting buddies and people are now aware. And no business was slandered in the open forum.

Good Luck to you.
 
#17
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

LJWILL

From your most recent post I can tell maybe I misjudged your character. Sorry if I went off a bit, but I consider Don to be about one of the best friends I have ever had. If you want a little practice I would welcome you to come visit. I have an 800 yard range out my back door and you can get some practice if you want. If you want some help working up a load my set up is a lot like Don's, indoor benches next to my reloading room.
 
#18
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Guys,

I meet WJWILL for the first time when he dropped his rifle off. You can tell he wants to be the best he can be and is willing to put forth the effort in practice. He seems like a good guy and in person and on the phone isn’t cocky or a smartass. All in all the metal work performed by Hart looks to be as good as I've ever seen come from their shop. The stock is a McMillan HTG so I think we can get WJ lined out and going in the right direction.

WJ, don’t worry about the learning curve, as with many here, there was a time that I thought the Bushnell Scope in see through mounts on my Rem742 was the shit....................................now I know it's just plain shit
wink.gif
 
#19
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My set up is a lot like Don's, indoor benches next to my reloading room. </div></div>

I'm on the way!!!
 
#20
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Kudos to ya Will.

It takes a man to own his errors.

Now, if ya still wanna get rid of that Ruger, Im only bout an hour from Roscoe and could save ya trip! Just saying.........
 
#21
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Well come on down, anytime......but I am going to pick your brain about gun work.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My set up is a lot like Don's, indoor benches next to my reloading room. </div></div>

I'm on the way!!! </div></div>
 
#22
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well come on down, anytime......<span style="font-weight: bold">but I am going to pick your brain about gun work</span>.</div></div>

Better that than your nose
wink.gif
 
#23
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Ya know, it is a very rare occurrence, on the 'net let alone the 'Hide, where a thread takes such a 180 degree turn. In so many ways.

AND FOR THE BETTER.

Good on ya! Keep up that attitude, and esteem, and you'll go places. Others could (and some should,,,,) learn from this situation.

My respects.
 
#24
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

I've met Don several times at benchrest matches. I can't really say that I KNOW him. But he was always nice to me. In the south east region there is a match somewhere every other weekend. Most serious shooters get there on Thursday or Friday morning at the latest. Check back with Don Monday evening or some time Tuesday.

I'm glad this thread took a turn for the better.
 
#25
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

I checked the NBRSA SER schedule. There is a 4 gun match at the Rockingham Range at Reidsville, NC this weekend. And then again he may be at a range closer to home.

I promise, where ever he is he's giving everyone there a hard row to hoe.
 
#26
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

I am pretty sure Don and Richie went to St. Louis for the match.

I am hoping he is giving them hell. He almost quit last year. He finally built himself some new guns and is having better showings. What is it about gunsmith and thier own guns....lol I think we are going to the nationals this year. I guess he wants some more HOF points.
 
#27
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is it about gunsmith and thier own guns....lol </div></div>

It's kinda like the mechanics care
crazy.gif
 
#28
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya know, it is a very rare occurrence, on the 'net let alone the 'Hide, where a thread takes such a 180 degree turn. In so many ways.

AND FOR THE BETTER.

Good on ya! Keep up that attitude, and esteem, and you'll go places. Others could (and some should,,,,) learn from this situation.

My respects.
</div></div>

Indeed
laugh.gif
 
#29
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

Guys i read this earlier and had typed a lengthy post. I then read some more and realized this guys error.
I consider myself a friend and customer of Don Geraci and am proud to say he would have enjoyed this post if we could ever get him setup on the e-net. He would of probably been adding fuel to the fire just to watch it burn. For those who dont know Don I wish i had met Don many years ago when he was really in his prime not to say he wont out shoot any young guy i know today but he is a fun mentor for me. Wether it be Don or Rosco all of us need to listen and learn. Could you imagine being able to hang around PO Ackley in the day??? That is what i feel like around DON Geraci.( Stole this from EDDYBO ) He got all of his points in the BRHF in a 9 year period. I doubt anyone will ever gather more points in such a short period. His house is like a shrine to accuracy. With numerous world records hanging in his reloading room and pictures of all of the great shooters that he was friends with adorning the place it is a history lesson for any shooter. Sorry but he is a great guy.
 
#30
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

You can bet that old fart would be fueling the fire....lol

I think that is the only reason he still shoots.....so he can beat us and aggrevate the hell out of us about it.
 
#31
Re: Here is the REAL deal with my Ruger M77

OK guys, I've pillar bedded the rifle, removed the bedding that was under the barrel and test fired.

The ammo that Will was testing with..........JUNK it took two 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper to catch three shots.
crazy.gif
crazy.gif


I fired three more shots with FGMM 168's with the thread protector and it produced a 7/8" group

I fired three more shots with the Vias Brake on the rifle and it produced a 5/8" group.

The two groups of FGMM were in a triangle which tells me the bedding, machining, scope and mounts are good. POI changed slightly between brake and no brake but, it's to be expected. Left and right were same/same.

My assessment, the rifle is fine. Will is experiencing an ammo issue and needs to reload.

213orrl.jpg

 
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