Here it comes.... man killed for refusing to turn in guns.

[Dewey7271]

Remember when Obummer was so happy all medical records were going to be digitized? Well, with Red Flag that opens a whole new set of potential issues. What about a “need” to open those to “protect” people?
How many people are on antidepressants? Not denigrating anyone here by the way. So, with a long reach couldn’t some judge or lawmaker drag depression into the mental illness bucket?
So in that vein, anyone on any antidepressants falls into the Red Flag confiscation category.
Another reach I know but a lot of vets are on antidepressants so under this crap law you could potentially disarm them. (Yeah I know there would be consequences)
But the potential is there.
You can throw this basket over a bunch of other circumstances that, while perfectly explainable, still could result in confiscations and the consequences resulting from that.
This is a terrible law that is a Pandora’s box of possible scenarios.
I fear a lot of good people are about to be made felons, even if temporary. There will probably be quite a few innocents killed “legally” by this also as @Bender started this post with.
If someone is banging on your door at 3 AM, how are going to answer it? Some wired out SWAT guy makes a mistake and game over, at least for you.
Another thought. What’s the penalty for a fake call? I can be accused of something completely untrue, accosted, and then I have no recompense? B.s. There’s no accountability for the accuser.
I afraid you’d have to actually go through this to have standing and thereby the ability to legally fight this and then we’ve already lost if it’s actually a law.
Sorry but giving the government more power and giving up due process and more frosts me.
I would guess there’s potentially a 1st Amendment fight here also in that anything you say could lead to a Red Flag report?

 

[Sixfivesavage]

What happens when a red flag raid is finally paired up with a prepared recipient and the red raiders are met with someone who out maneuvers them, has weapons superiority and successfully removes the weapons of the red raiders for "everyone's safety"? You know, just temporarily until they prove they aren't a threat...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Edited:
I better not say anything. Someone may say I'm unstable.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I've noticed with a lot of irritation that just about every time you go for some medical thing they are all like "do you feel safe in your home?"
"Are you feeling depressed" and so on and so forth.

Slippery slope, you best make sure you only give the "correct" answer.

 

[MtnCreek]

I've noticed with a lot of irritation that just about every time you go for some medical thing they are all like "do you feel safe in your home?"
"Are you feeling depressed" and so on and so forth.

Slippery slope, you best make sure you only give the "correct" answer.

You can bet my oldest boy is listed as one of the starving children in every statistic for the last 10 years. Are you ever hungry? Always. Do you worry about where your next meal is coming from? All the time.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I've noticed with a lot of irritation that just about every time you go for some medical thing they are all like "do you feel safe in your home?"
"Are you feeling depressed" and so on and so forth.

Slippery slope, you best make sure you only give the "correct" answer.

They have asked me that about three times in the last two years. It REALLY pisses me off, but I know I have to bite my tongue.
Wrong answers:
"If I did, I wouldn't want your help."
"Yes I feel perfectly safe, I stay armed at all times."
"I'm in a lot of pain, I can't do the things I love to do, of course I'm depressed you fuckstick!"

Use your imagination, there are a thousand ways to fuck up when asked those questions.

 

[Mwalex]

Doctors are so focused on participating in gun control that they are overlooking how many people are killed in hospitals every year. Of course that is not their fault.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Doctors are so focused on participating in gun control that they are overlooking how many people are killed in hospitals every year. Of course that is not their fault.

Not "overlooking" actively covering up is more correct.
The doctors think they should be demigods and you should do what they say without question and they should get to rule your life, just like the Communists...

 

[blaserman33]

The funny part of all of this is these people who like red Flag laws and want COPS to confiscate your firearms are the same people who don’t trust and hate COPS. The same people who talk about the government oppressing people want to give the government more power. Where is the logic?

 

[wilson1911]

Where is the cop who told the judge he is violating the law ?? I must have missed that news reel...

 

[j-huskey]

Doctor visit.
Doctor: "Do you feel safe at home, are you depressed, do you feel angry, do you have any guns? Are they locked up where children cant get to them ?

Me: "Doc, what the fuck does that have to do with why I'm here ?"

Doc: "The AMA and .gov say I have to ask these questions and record your answers."

Me: "Doc, Doc, Doc, you dont really want to record my answers !"

Doc: "I dont see why not, I have to ask and record your answers."

Me: "Ok Doc, here goes, ahhhhhh, you know this looks a lot like clap drip, ahhhhhh, I'm fucking your wife AND 16 year old daughter. I thought you might want to know one of them definitely has the clap, and the other one AND you probably have it now."

Doc: long silence.....

Had to find a new doc.....
Oh well... skin cream "can", can mind you, look like clap drip...

 

[sabrecross]

Well stated...

Remember when Obummer was so happy all medical records were going to be digitized? Well, with Red Flag that opens a whole new set of potential issues. What about a “need” to open those to “protect” people?
How many people are on antidepressants? Not denigrating anyone here by the way. So, with a long reach couldn’t some judge or lawmaker drag depression into the mental illness bucket?
So in that vein, anyone on any antidepressants falls into the Red Flag confiscation category.
Another reach I know but a lot of vets are on antidepressants so under this crap law you could potentially disarm them. (Yeah I know there would be consequences)
But the potential is there.
You can throw this basket over a bunch of other circumstances that, while perfectly explainable, still could result in confiscations and the consequences resulting from that.
This is a terrible law that is a Pandora’s box of possible scenarios.
I fear a lot of good people are about to be made felons, even if temporary. There will probably be quite a few innocents killed “legally” by this also as @Bender started this post with.
If someone is banging on your door at 3 AM, how are going to answer it? Some wired out SWAT guy makes a mistake and game over, at least for you.
Another thought. What’s the penalty for a fake call? I can be accused of something completely untrue, accosted, and then I have no recompense? B.s. There’s no accountability for the accuser.
I afraid you’d have to actually go through this to have standing and thereby the ability to legally fight this and then we’ve already lost if it’s actually a law.
Sorry but giving the government more power and giving up due process and more frosts me.
I would guess there’s potentially a 1st Amendment fight here also in that anything you say could lead to a Red Flag report?

 

[blaserman33]

Where is the cop who told the judge he is violating the law ?? I must have missed that news reel...

Judges ha e been given way too much power. They legislate from the bench and there is no recourse or consequences. Look at the 9th district, they are over turned by higher courts all the time, yet there is no discussion of why their judgements are continually found to be outside the constitution. If there continually found to be outside the constitution there should be a discussion of removing them or at least moving them to different districts and then removed if their actions continue. But it’s a lifetime appointment so unless THEY decided to leave there is almost nothing that can be done and that REALLY bugs me.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

Doctor visit.
Doctor: "Do you feel safe at home, are you depressed, do you feel angry, do you have any guns? Are they locked up where children cant get to them ?

Me: "Doc, what the fuck does that have to do with why I'm here ?"

Doc: "The AMA and .gov say I have to ask these questions and record your answers."

Me: "Doc, Doc, Doc, you dont really want to record my answers !"

Doc: "I dont see why not, I have to ask and record your answers."

Me: "Ok Doc, here goes, ahhhhhh, you know this looks a lot like clap drip, ahhhhhh, I'm fucking your wife AND 16 year old daughter. I thought you might want to know one of them definitely has the clap, and the other one AND you probably have it now."

Doc: long silence.....

Had to find a new doc.....
Oh well... skin cream "can", can mind you, look like clap drip...

Even though I have not encountered a doctor yet who asks these type of questions, if one day I do, here is how the conversation will go...

Doctor: "Do you have any guns in your residence?"

Me: "No".

Because it is none of their fucking business whether I have guns or not. Hence the answer. They should pay more attention to not overprescribing shit or prescribing the wrong meds/treatment to folks, which happens far more regularly than they would ever admit.

 

[bigshooter300]

TERRIBLE THING, BUT AFTER 10PM TILL 6AM, I DON'T ANSWER MY DOOR. OR MY PHONE,PERIOD. DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE. YOU HAVE TO BUST IN. THEN ITS ON. CAUSE ANYTHING BETWEEN THOSE HOURS ISN'T SOMETHING I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT. GO BACK TO BED.

 

[JMGlasgow]

WHY ARE YOU YELLING!?

 

[diverdon]

Sure, but I also understand the concept of double standards.

Everytime a mass shooting occurs everyone is saying that it is important to warn the government if they know someone whom they suspect has a screw loose. This man was reported for that and he even proved the allegations right.

A normal person would've followed instructions and stayed alive.

I'm not sure where you took civics. I don't see how you can loose your rights without a chance to answer a charge and cross examine witnesses.

 

[blaserman33]

WHY ARE YOU YELLING!?

Because it’s not between 10pm and 6am so he doesn’t want to hear the knock so he doesn’t have to answer it. Lol.

Seriously though, I used to have a program at work that required caps lock on to work right and used to forget to turn it off for other things.

 

[blaserman33]

TERRIBLE THING, BUT AFTER 10PM TILL 6AM, I DON'T ANSWER MY DOOR. OR MY PHONE,PERIOD. DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE. YOU HAVE TO BUST IN. THEN ITS ON. CAUSE ANYTHING BETWEEN THOSE HOURS ISN'T SOMETHING I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT. GO BACK TO BED.

That brings up a good question, how far will they go in reinforcing the removal orders? If you don’t answer are they gonna automatically knock the door down? What if you aren’t home? I know if you try to fight it after answering the door they’ll go all the way, but how serious will these so called “warrants” or removal orders be on a first attempt? How about 2nd attempt? Will they show up at your work and tell your employer we need to borrow him so we can confiscate his guns?

 

[Ravenworks]

Doctors are overlooking how many people are killed in hospitals every year. Of course that is not their fault.

True story,they tried killing me 6 different times in one sitting this spring

If it would not had been for my wife's background and quick thinkings I'd be dead permanently instead of just for the five days I spent on ice and bypass.
Ok,back on topic, lets bust into a person's home,steal their stuff since they are mentally ill.
AND
Then we just leave them there to their own devices.

I'm thinking right now, that if the person was truly off then the government entity and the person that filed the complaint shouldn't be surprised when the person they complained about kills themselves.
These Red Flag laws actually scare me,and they should scare ANY sane person.

 

[blaserman33]

True story,they tried killing me 6 different times in one sitting this spring

If it would not had been for my wife's background and quick thinkings I'd be dead permanently instead of just for the five days I spent on ice and bypass.
Ok,back on topic, lets bust into a person's home,steal their stuff since they are mentally ill.
AND
Then we just leave them there to their own devices.

I'm thinking right now, that if the person was truly off then the government entity and the person that filed the complaint shouldn't be surprised when the person they complained about kills themselves.
These Red Flag laws actually scare me,and they should scare ANY sane person.

Very True! These laws are very scary! And even scarier is that most of the people don’t even consider or discuss all the aspects of the laws like we are doing here. It’s all “means justifies the ends” type thinking. Does it help take guns away? Yes? Then the other aspects don’t matter. “If there’s a chance it COULD, (not will, but COULD) save even one life then we should do it! And if you don’t want to do it you are heartless, just want people to die”. It’s the lack of thought and the inability to actually listen to others and honestly consider why people oppose it, that is what scares me, there is no more critical thinking and intellectual honesty in a large portion of our society.

 

[shootist2004]

I agree with red flag laws.............
If the asswipe punk next door is talking about shootin up his school by all means lets put him away quick.
But take him to court first and find out he's crazy THEN take his guns..............

 

[Longshot231]

The Firearms Policy Coalition just issued a press release over a decision in a case "which challenged a ban on gun possession that the federal government was imposing against the plaintiff and other individuals under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4)."

The case involved an ex parte hospitalization which resulted in the confiscation of a man's firearms. Brandon Wiborn was committed to a mental health facility in 2003 for an evaluation for 72 hours. That involuntary commitment was in Pennsylvania under that state's Mental Health Protection Act (MPHA).

Let that sink in. This was not even an ex parte hearing but a hospitalization. This case didn't even come before a Pennsylvania judge. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the involuntary commitment but because it was against Mr. Wilborn's will, you can bet there was a cop involved.

He was released and there was NO adjudication saying that he was mentally defective and could not possess a firearm according to 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4). To repeat there was NO hearing regarding the sanity of Mr. Wilborn. The fact that he was released and a trial was NEVER held regarding his sanity couldn't be more salient.

Later on, Mr. Wilborn attempted to purchase a firearm and was denied by NICS. He appealed and was told that the denial was because of his involuntary commitment in 2003.

That brings us to the lawsuit. Mr. Wilborn brought the case before the US District Court for Eastern Pennsylvania. What is so sweet about this is that Mr. Wilborn asked the court for a summary judgement. He got it and won. So if I am reading this correctly he won the case on briefs alone without a hearing before the District Court. If there was a hearing, it wasn't a full-blown hearing where evidence was presented and testimony heard.

I say this is a sweet victory because the leftists and libtards want to take a person's rights away without them being present in court and having no idea what is happening until you get your door knocked down at 4:00 AM.

I've been a victim of these fucked-up ex-parte hearings but not had my door kicked in. And I can tell you that it really pisses you off when only ONE side sees the judge. You aren't there and the judge is already prejudiced against you. Then at a later hearing (if you get one) the burden of proof is on you to prove that the accusations against you are not true.

Now you want to hear something that will really frost your balls? There are no penalties against the person or police for lying to the judge. It's true that there are laws against perjury but it is extremely rare that a prosecutor will bring a charge against someone for lying.

The reason is the burden of proof is supposedly on the prosecutor in the case against the perjurer. All the liar has to do was say that based on the knowledge he or she had they thought they were telling the truth. So basically, some prosecutors are lazy jerks that want an easy case to prosecute. That's a long way of saying that nothing happens to an accuser who lies.

So far, none of the red flag laws that I have read have any penalties built in for an accuser who lies about the defendant who get his or her guns taken away. Don't believe me, look up the record on ex-wives who are prosecuted for lying in divorce court.

Here is the link to the FPC press release. It's worth reading.

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc-pa-wilborn-court-victory

Also take the time to read the District Court's ruling. It's priceless!

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...9-8-8-wilborn-v-barr-order-msj.pdf?1565300429

Now the question that is not being asked is how did NICS find out about a hospitalization? It is not a crime to be hospitalized even if it is involuntary. Are commitments to mental health facilities being fed into NICS databases? Based on this case, it sure looks like that is happening.

Even more chilling is that red flag laws and cases like this will discourage people from seeking help from mental health resources for fear of having their rights taken away.

 

[Longshot231]

Normally I agree with Liz Wheeler on almost everything she says. In this case, however, she’s like every so-called conservative who say RFLs are okay as long as due process is protected.

All that sounds good but the scotus has said the only thing that has to happen to meet due process is for a hearing to occur. That’s it - only a hearing.

So the accused gets a hearing but by its very nature, an ERPO assumes the accused is already guilty. He or she still has the burden of proof not the accuser.

The RFLs don’t assign any penalties for an accuser that lies.

In the last portion of the video, they are 100% correct about the fallacy of universal background checks.