Hey Berger If You're Listening

[nick338]

Posting this in the hopes that they are listening and that there may be enough interest in a .308 250 gr LRHT bullet. The more I play with a 300 Norma the more I desire this bullet. Mainly because I have been loading Hornady 250 A Tips and hearing about the bc variance and how Berger is spot on with consistency. I haven't shot the A -Tip out to distance yet to check for vertical but it seems like my buddy and others that have shot both favor the Bergers for consistency. I'm a heavy for caliber fan and it would be nice to have this as an option.

Thoughts?

 

[Steel head]

A 250ish LRHT would be nice.

 

[918v]

What’s wrong with the 245EOL?

 

[nick338]

Nothing wrong with it. But Berger released the LRHT bullets specifically geared towards long range shooting and closed the tip for the best consistency downrange. These bullets are doing very well and seem to have an advantage when vertical is coming in to play.

What was wrong the 215 Hybrid that they released a 208 and 220 LRHT?

I see it as another option, that's all.

 

[918v]

Nothing. I doubt the lrht bullets are really that much better than the non-lrht bullets or that people like the OP can extract the difference.

 

[Steel head]

Nothing wrong with it. But Berger released the LRHT bullets specifically geared towards long range shooting and closed the tip for the best consistency downrange. These bullets are doing very well and seem to have an advantage when vertical is coming in to play.

What was wrong the 215 Hybrid that they released a 208 and 220 LRHT?

I see it as another option, that's all.

I tested the 7mm LRHT against the A Tip and the Berger was the clear winner eve though it’s BC was less.

 

[nick338]

I tested the 7mm LRHT against the A Tip and the Berger was the clear winner eve though it’s BC was less.

I remember you testing them. I was pretty high on the A-tips when they first came out because of the bc and BCX has also tested a lot of the Bergers and A Tips side by side and agrees that the Bergers are more consistent.

What's interesting is the typical variances that have been reported cause less than 1 inch vertical dispersion on paper at 1k yet he was seeing much more than that on steel, with roughly the same ES and SD numbers.

 

[Steel head]

I remember you testing them. I was pretty high on the A-tips when they first came out because of the bc and BCX has also tested a lot of the Bergers and A Tips side by side and agrees that the Bergers are more consistent.

What's interesting is the typical variances that have been reported cause less than 1 inch vertical dispersion on paper at 1k yet he was seeing much more than that on steel, with roughly the same ES and SD numbers.

At 2 to 3k it’s a bigger issue.
I’m not shooting 1” groups at 1000 yards so at shorter ranges it’s a non issue except I had a few just not make it to the target and that IS and issue.

 

[Dogtown]

So a .300NM throwing 250s at maybe 2850fps...how is that not the same as a .338LM with 250s?

 

[nick338]

So a .300NM throwing 250s at maybe 2850fps...how is that not the same as a .338LM with 250s?

The bc on the .338 250's aren't in the same world as the .308. Not even close.

I'm at 3000 fps with the 250 A Tip and N570.

 

[Dogtown]

Ok, I see your point.

 

[Raufoss]

I tested the 7mm LRHT against the A Tip and the Berger was the clear winner eve though it’s BC was less.

Honestly that’s anecdotal at best.
I’ve runned test in my 7 Saum and 7 Allen and I’ve seen less vertical and better consistency with the 190 A-Tip.

OP stop listening to stuff online and test them by yourself . My test is as irrelevant than Steel head test.

 

[phlegethon]

@b2lee any thoughts?

 

[Steel head]

So a .300NM throwing 250s at maybe 2850fps...how is that not the same as a .338LM with 250s?

Your kidding right?

 

[phlegethon]

View attachment 7628150

Ok, I see your point.

The BC of the 250 grain A tip is .442.

 

[Dogtown]

I was trying to do an apples to apples comparison.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I am in the camp that thinks that weight is too heavy for the 300NM...since the optimum bullet weight for a 338 class bullet is 270-285 there is just not enough "BC Benefit" in going to such heavy weight bullet for 300NM class cartridges; especially with the reduced velocity you will get compared to the lighter weight 30cal bullets.

The old days of equating heavier bullets with better BC is long gone.
The old days of allowing BC numbers to essentially neuter velocities numbers has long gone.

For example take a 198gr Seneca with G1 of .840 (*The average BC was measured using 8.5tw 5R rifled barrels and being shot at approximately 2940fps. Different rifling geometry and muzzle velocity will affect the BC in a nominal manner.) and run it at 3200+ beats a heavy for caliber all day long.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TxWelder35]

If you are into chasing BC and shooting laser beams solids are the way to go.

BC of the heavies and speed of the lighter grain bullets. Win/win.

 

[nick338]

Hi,

I am in the camp that thinks that weight is too heavy for the 300NM...since the optimum bullet weight for a 338 class bullet is 270-285 there is just not enough "BC Benefit" in going to such heavy weight bullet for 300NM class cartridges; especially with the reduced velocity you will get compared to the lighter weight 30cal bullets.

The old days of equating heavier bullets with better BC is long gone.
The old days of allowing BC numbers to essentially neuter velocities numbers has long gone.

For example take a 198gr Seneca with G1 of .840 (*The average BC was measured using 8.5tw 5R rifled barrels and being shot at approximately 2940fps. Different rifling geometry and muzzle velocity will affect the BC in a nominal manner.) and run it at 3200+ beats a heavy for caliber all day long.

Sincerely,
Theis

One needs to consider form factor in choosing what bullets to shoot for a given cartridge. All other things being relative to bullet weight (velocity, powder charge), the lowest form factor wins in down range ballistics, if that's something you care about.

The only lead core bullet I know of that has a lower form factor than the 250 A Tip by a very small margin is the 230 A tip. And it isn't enough for a real world difference especially if you're considering things like impact signature or spotting misses.

If a 250 sheds velocity at a slower rate and I can't push lighter bullets fast enough to overcome that because the form factors are greater, it's a win at the target.

Whether or not Berger can make a 250 with a low enough form factor to compete with it's lighter weight options for caliber remains to be seen, but I like having choices.

 

[Dogtown]

For example take a 198gr Seneca with G1 of .840 (*The average BC was measured using 8.5tw 5R rifled barrels and being shot at approximately 2940fps. Different rifling geometry and muzzle velocity will affect the BC in a nominal manner.) and run it at 3200+ beats a heavy for caliber all day long.

Hmm...never heard of those. Have tested Flatline 198gr, but I see a 212gr Seneca - might have to give those a try.

 

[nick338]

Not putting solids down because I have zero experience with them but if they are so superior to lead core bullets what's taking militaries so long to adopt them?

Obviously a machined projectile held to the tightest tolerances should be more consistent especially at extended ranges and I'm certainly not disputing the bc and velocity potential so what am I missing? Is there a stability issue that comes in to play due to center of gravity?

 

[Dogtown]

Solids aren't a good choice against humans.

 

[nick338]

Solids aren't a good choice against humans.

I agree but reaching out to 1500 yards and further, most open tip bullets expand very little if at all so the effect would be similar, would it not?

 

[Dogtown]

From what I remember from solids testing early in GWOT years, they tended to over-penetrate soft targets and didn't sufficiently penetrate hard targets, so they fell into this grey area not optimal for either military application, but perfect for shooting steel or paper. Eventually there were some AP-specific solids developed, but they didn't really catch on.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

And when is the military used as a baseline of gauging whether something is better than something else??

Ever deal with the in/outs of gov procurement process?? It typically has ZERO with "best" and more inline with how/what the procurement is written for. Can be an entire encyclopedia of pure budget demands such as vendor has to accept payment terms of net 180, net 240, etc etc...Must be willing to buy all the excess back if gov decides to change contract, etc etc.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[nick338]

Hi,

And when is the military used as a baseline of gauging whether something is better than something else??

Ever deal with the in/outs of gov procurement process?? It typically has ZERO with "best" and more inline with how/what the procurement is written for. Can be an entire encyclopedia of pure budget demands such as vendor has to accept payment terms of net 180, net 240, etc etc...Must be willing to buy all the excess back if gov decides to change contract, etc etc.

Sincerely,
Theis

There are assets in the military that can and do request equipment that is outside the norm. Your 375 Swiss P is a perfect example.

 

[Ledzep]

Posting this in the hopes that they are listening and that there may be enough interest in a .308 250 gr LRHT bullet. The more I play with a 300 Norma the more I desire this bullet. Mainly because I have been loading Hornady 250 A Tips and hearing about the bc variance and how Berger is spot on with consistency. I haven't shot the A -Tip out to distance yet to check for vertical but it seems like my buddy and others that have shot both favor the Bergers for consistency. I'm a heavy for caliber fan and it would be nice to have this as an option.

Thoughts?

The "Brand X is better than Brand Y" shit goes back and forth both ways.

I'd shoot the 250 A-tips and see how they perform for you before you write them off based on someone else's experience. Most people doing this sorta kinda have their shit together, but not many conduct truly meaningful testing that you can be confident taking as gospel. IME Every barrel is different and it's very easy for bullets that HAMMER in one barrel to shoot kinda like poo poo in another, and visa versa with Brand B. Try both and see what works for you.

FWIW, I've had no elevation/vertical issues to report with 230 or 250 A-tips in .300 PRC out to 2000yd. Nothing that can't be pretty much directly attributed to MV spreads.

 

[THEIS]

There are assets in the military that can and do request equipment that is outside the norm. Your 375 Swiss P is a perfect example.

Hi,

Absolutely they do and unless you are in those units/teams nobody can say they are not using solids since they do not go through the normal .gov purchasing systems.

The 375 Swiss P is RUAG; I am just a manufacturer utilizing it....well; and working directly with RUAG for my own changes/version.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hmm...never heard of those. Have tested Flatline 198gr, but I see a 212gr Seneca - might have to give those a try.

Hi,

@Dogtown
The Senecas are designed and manufactured by the original designer of the Flatlines....Josh Kunz of PVA.

I have the 212gr Seneca's too but am having the 198gr loaded right now because they are to be mag fed and that is the direction I am going with my company and desires.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[nick338]

Hi,

Absolutely they do and unless you are in those units/teams nobody can say they are not using solids since they do not go through the normal .gov purchasing systems.

The 375 Swiss P is RUAG; I am just a manufacturer utilizing it....well; and working directly with RUAG for my own changes/version.

Sincerely,
Theis

Of course. I was just referring to the fact that you were the "breaking news" on it.

Now, about that supply of Ruag ammo...

 

[nick338]

The "Brand X is better than Brand Y" shit goes back and forth both ways.

I'd shoot the 250 A-tips and see how they perform for you before you write them off based on someone else's experience. Most people doing this sorta kinda have their shit together, but not many conduct truly meaningful testing that you can be confident taking as gospel. IME Every barrel is different and it's very easy for bullets that HAMMER in one barrel to shoot kinda like poo poo in another, and visa versa with Brand B. Try both and see what works for you.

FWIW, I've had no elevation/vertical issues to report with 230 or 250 A-tips in .300 PRC out to 2000yd. Nothing that can't be pretty much directly attributed to MV spreads.

Certainly not writing them off, I have 1300 of them begging to be loaded. Just feel like it was the next logical .30 caliber release for Berger to think about as there are other cartridges besides the Norma that could also take advantage of that bullet weight.

 

[b2lee]

@b2lee any thoughts?

Yes....the 245gr Berger EOL is almost geometrically perfect for the 300PRC. I first tried the 245EOL in hopes to find something more affordable than the 230 A-Tips but with close enough performance. I was blown away with how good the 245EOL is. Now, I'm out of 245 EOLs and I'm crying...I will begrudgingly go back to the 230 A-Tips until I can resupply. I drive the 245 EOL's at ~2880 with RL-26 in a 29.5" barrel. I also trim the meplats and point them to get about a 6% increase in BC. I also coat my bullets with HBN. I've come to magic recipe of getting 2-3fps SD and ES under 10 on 10-20 round strings of fire. The BC variations are almost non-existent. To be honest, on my 1000 yard paper targets...I can't honestly say if it is a BC/MV variance....or simply ME. Most likely...it is me.

I've shot the 250 A-Tips and not had the greatest luck...or atleast no performance gain over the 230's...but with additional torque tweaking my bipod to give me cant after each shot. You have to drive the 250's at a higher velocity than I want to in my 300PRC. Maybe in a 300NM you can get these velocities with no pressure...but me driving them at ~3000fps didn't really impress me at 2000+ yards.

To rephrase...the 245 Berger EOL is a magical bullet that is almost pornographic from a geometrical standpoint....it is just sexy on paper...whether the paper is a drawing of the bullet or a piece of paper at 1 mile with 5 holes in it.

 

[nick338]

Yes....the 245gr Berger EOL is almost geometrically perfect for the 300PRC. I first tried the 245EOL in hopes to find something more affordable than the 230 A-Tips but with close enough performance. I was blown away with how good the 245EOL is. Now, I'm out of 245 EOLs and I'm crying...I will begrudgingly go back to the 230 A-Tips until I can resupply. I drive the 245 EOL's at ~2880 with RL-26 in a 29.5" barrel. I also trim the meplats and point them to get about a 6% increase in BC. I also coat my bullets with HBN. I've come to magic recipe of getting 2-3fps SD and ES under 10 on 10-20 round strings of fire. The BC variations are almost non-existent. To be honest, on my 1000 yard paper targets...I can't honestly say if it is a BC/MV variance....or simply ME. Most likely...it is me.

I've shot the 250 A-Tips and not had the greatest luck...or atleast no performance gain over the 230's...but with additional torque tweaking my bipod to give me cant after each shot. You have to drive the 250's at a higher velocity than I want to in my 300PRC. Maybe in a 300NM you can get these velocities with no pressure...but me driving them at ~3000fps didn't really impress me at 2000+ yards.

To rephrase...the 245 Berger EOL is a magical bullet that is almost pornographic from a geometrical standpoint....it is just sexy on paper...whether the paper is a drawing of the bullet or a piece of paper at 1 mile with 5 holes in it.

Now if Berger would only do the trimming and pointing for you and call it a 250 LRHT

Just curious...how far off the lands do you find they shoot the best?

 

[b2lee]

Now if Berger would only do the trimming and pointing for you and call it a 250 LRHT

Just curious...how far off the lands do you find they shoot the best?

The geometry for the LRHT is completely different....and I would still repoint them.

How far off the lands? I have no clue. I don't do any depths based off the lands. Have two methods.

1. I hold the bullet up to the brass. I see where the boat tail is...and try to line that up with the neck shoulder junction. Then I'll play 3-6 thou either way. Usually I'll just tune it with the ATS Tuner and call it good.

2. I measure 20 thou off the MAGAZINE wall and seat the bullet...then play a few thou shorter...dial it in with the tuner and rock on.

The 245gr EOL is a very...very jump happy...and a various seating depth tolerant bullet.

If you are really nerdy like me...look at the schematic for the 245gr EOL and look at the measurements...look at the ratios of bearing surface, boat tail, ogive, overall length.....it is damn near perfect for a 308 bullet moving at about 2900fps.

Also...I recently found they are very stable at 2300+ yards and the vertical spreads were stupidly tight....wind is my monster.

 

[nick338]

My prayers may be answered.

This marks the third straight year that the winner of the Nightforce ELR Steel Challenge was shooting Berger bullets. In 2019, Mitch Fitzpatrick, who works closely with Bryan on several projects, won using the Berger 338 Caliber 300 Grain Hybrid bullets. In 2020, Jorge Ortiz took home the win with Berger 30 Caliber 220 Grain Long Range Hybrid Target bullets. This year, Bryan won while shooting an experimental 30 Caliber 245 Grain Long Range Hybrid Target (LRHT) bullet that him and the Berger R&D team has been working on as a request from the U.S. Elite Forces. Our LRHT bullets improve upon our existing hybrid profiles by creating a higher BC bullet that has a very consistent BC, which is extremely important when shooting longer distances. Seeing how well these bullets worked, we might see this as a new bullet release in the spring of 2022!