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Maggie’s Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Fred_C_Dobbs

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 26, 2010
220
9
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World's Largest Atom Smasher May Have Detected 'God Particle'

A rumor is floating around the physics community that the world's largest atom smasher may have detected a long-sought subatomic particle called the Higgs boson, also known as the "God particle."

The controversial rumor is based on what appears to be a leaked internal note from physicists at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), a 17-mile-long particle accelerator near Geneva, Switzerland. It's not entirely clear at this point if the memo is authentic, or what the data it refers to might mean — but the note already has researchers talking.

The buzz started when an anonymous commenter recently posted an abstract of the note on Columbia University mathematician Peter Woit's blog, Not Even Wrong.

Some physicists say the note may be a hoax, while others believe the "detection" is likely a statistical anomaly that will disappear upon further study. But the find would be a huge particle-physics breakthrough, if it holds up....
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

SS, DD?

Higgs boson to be unveiled (possibly)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Cern physicists are on tenterhooks as experiment sets out to confirm the existence of the Higgs boson</span>

This Tuesday is an important day at Cern, the European Organisation for Nuclear Research. The scientists at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) will present the latest results on the search for the Higgs boson, the fabled particle with the big job of explaining how nature's elementary particles acquire mass....
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">World's Largest Atom Smasher May Have Detected 'God Particle'

A rumor is floating around the physics community that the world's largest atom smasher may have detected a long-sought subatomic particle called the Higgs boson, also known as the "God particle."

The controversial rumor is based on what appears to be a leaked internal note from physicists at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), a 17-mile-long particle accelerator near Geneva, Switzerland. It's not entirely clear at this point if the memo is authentic, or what the data it refers to might mean — but the note already has researchers talking.

The buzz started when an anonymous commenter recently posted an abstract of the note on Columbia University mathematician Peter Woit's blog, Not Even Wrong.

Some physicists say the note may be a hoax, while others believe the "detection" is likely a statistical anomaly that will disappear upon further study. But the find would be a huge particle-physics breakthrough, if it holds up.... </div></div>

I thought all machines were
godless atheists?
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

The reason SETI hasn't detected anything in their search for aliens is because any sufficiently advanced civilization that can created radio, is only a short period away from discovering the higgs boson, and it destroyed their planet.


We're next.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

the more important questionn is:

"Where is Higg's Bosun's mate?"
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Staying with the quantum physics theme, Joe Rogan brought this one up:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc </div></div>
I am certain that at this moment Erwin Schrödinger's is doing a happy dance on account of that video.


This highlights why I can only afford to have a peripheral interest in the LHC and all the rest. Particle physics has become so massively complex, and the field of knowledge changes so frequently, it would be a full-time job just to get "read on." But before you got to the end of it, it will have changed and would be time to start over again.

The world was a much simpler place when an atom only had (at most) three components.
crazy.gif
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Oops, sorry, two days late, ...asleep at the wheel ....

This is as bad as those old matinee serials...

<span style="font-size: 14pt"> We may have glimpsed the Higgs boson, say Cern scientists</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Physicists have seen strong hints the Higgs boson exists, but a firm discovery may not come before the end of 2012</span>

Ian Sample at Cern, Geneva
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 13 December 2011 11.06 EST

Scientists believe they may have caught their first glimpse of the Higgs boson, the so-called God particle that is thought to underpin the subatomic workings of nature.

Physicists Fabiola Gianotti and Guido Tonelli were applauded by hundreds of scientists yesterday as they revealed evidence for the particle amid the debris of hundreds of trillions of proton collisions inside the Large Hadron Collider at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

First postulated in the mid-1960s, the Higgs boson has become the most coveted prize in particle physics. Its discovery would rank among the most important scientific advances of the past 100 years and confirm how elementary particles acquire mass.

While the results are not conclusive – the hints of the particle could fade when the LHC collects more data next year – they are the strongest evidence so far that the Higgs particle is there to be found.

"We have narrowed down the region where the Higgs particle is most likely to be, and we see some interesting signals, but we need more data before we can reach any firm conclusions," said Gianotti, who heads the team that works on the collider's enormous Atlas detector. "It's been a busy time, but a very exciting time."

Finding the Higgs boson has been a major goal for the £10bn LHC after a less powerful machine at Cern called LEP failed to find the missing particle before it closed for business in 2000.

The Higgs boson is the signature particle of a theory published by six physicists within a few months of each other in 1964. Peter Higgs, at Edinburgh University, was the first to point out that the theory called for the existence of the missing particle.

Ben Allanach, a theoretical physicist at Cambridge University, said: "My own personal feeling is that they probably have some kind of Higgs. Of course, discovery cannot be officially claimed yet, but I do feel in my heart of hearts that we have just seen the precursor to a discovery announcement."

According to the Higgs theory, an invisible energy field fills the vacuum of space throughout the universe. When some particles move through the field they feel drag and gain weight as a result. Others, such as particles of light, or photons, feel no drag at all and remain massless.

Without the field – or something to do its job – all fundamental particles would weigh nothing and hurtle around at the speed of light. That would spell disaster for the formation of atoms in the early universe and rule out life as we know it.

Scientists have no hope of detecting the field itself, but discovery of the Higgs boson would prove that it exists.

While the field is thought to give mass to fundamental particles, including quarks and electrons (the two kinds of particles that make up atoms), it accounts for only one or two percent of the weight of an atom itself, or any everyday object. That is because most mass comes from the energy that glues quarks together inside atoms.

To hunt for the Higgs boson physicists at the LHC sift through showers of subatomic debris that spew out when protons collide in the machine at close to the speed of light. Most of the energy released in these microscopic fireballs is converted into well known particles that are identified by the collider's giant detectors. Occasionally the collisions might create a Higgs boson, but it is expected that it would disintegrate immediately into more familiar particles. To find it scientists must look for telltale "excesses" of particles. They appear as bumps, or peaks, in data.

Particle physicists use a "sigma" scale to grade the significance of results, from one to five. One and two sigma results are unreliable because they come and go with statistical fluctuations in the data. A three sigma result counts as an "observation", while a five sigma result is enough to claim an official discovery. There is less than a one in a million chance of a five sigma result being a statistical fluke.

Gianotti and Tonelli led two separate teams – one using Cern's Atlas detector, the other using the laboratory's Compact Muon Solenoid. At their seminar yesterday one team reported a 2.3 sigma bump in their data that could be a Higgs boson weighing 126GeV, while the other reported a 1.9 sigma Higgs signal at a mass of around 124GeV. There is a 1% chance that the Atlas result could be due to a random fluctuation in the data.

Oliver Buchmueller, a physicist on the CMS experiment, said: "We see a small bump around the same mass as the Atlas team and that is intriguing. It means we have two experiments seeing the same thing and that is exactly how we would expect a Higgs signal to build up."

Early next year the Atlas and CMS teams will pool their results, a move that should see the signals strengthen. Both teams are expected to need around four times as much data before they can finally confirm whether or not the Higgs boson exists. That might be difficult to collect before the end of next year, when the machine is due to close for at least a year for an upgrade before it can run at its full design power.

"There is definitely a hint of something around 125GeV but it's not a discovery yet. We need more data! I'm keeping my champagne on ice," said Jeff Forshaw, a physicist at Manchester University. "It should be said this is a fantastic achievement by all concerned. The machine has been working wonderfully and it is great to be closing in on the Higgs so soon."

The director general of Cern, Rolf-Dieter Heuer, said: "I find it fantastic that we have the first results in the search for the Higgs, but keep in mind these are preliminary results. The window for the Higgs mass gets smaller and smaller, however it is still alive. But be careful, … it's intriguing hints in several channels, in two experiments, but we have not found it yet, we have not excluded it yet."

If the glimpse of the Higgs boson turns into a formal sighting next year it may be one of several Higgs particles outlined in a radical theory of nature called supersymmetry, which says every known type of particle has an undiscovered twin. It is popular among many physicists because it explains how some of the forces of nature might have behaved as one in the early universe. Unifying these fundamental forces was a feat that eluded Einstein to the grave.

Dick Hagen, a physicist at Rochester University who helped to develop the Higgs theory in 1964, said: "Einstein once said that God may be subtle but he is not perverse. Today's results seem to favour the simplest manifestation of [the Higgs mechanism], and that is very gratifying as it coincides with the choice we made in 1964 – not to mention the more personal issue that more complicated versions could easily fail to appear in the lifetimes of its principal authors."

Related video
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Since the LHC cost about $6 billion to build (plus $$$ more to rebuild after it burned), I wonder how much a pound of Chi-b(3P) would go for?

Large Hadron Collider discovers a new particle: the Chi-b(3P)
By Mark Brown
22 December 11

For the first time since the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) was opened in 2009, physicists from the UK think they've detected their first new subatomic particle.

Researchers from the University of Birmingham and Lancaster University analysed data from the ATLAS experiment, where particles of matter are shot at each other at close to the speed of light, in the hopes that interesting new particles will appear in the resulting subatomic carnage.

The data shows a clear indication of a particle called Chi-b(3P), which is pronounced kye-bee-three-pee. It's a forge of the bottom quark (also known as the beauty quark) and its antiquark.

Quarks are the building blocks of protons and neutrons, which in turn are the building blocks of atoms. Quarks come in a number of flavours like up, down, strange, charm, bottom, and top. This newly found particle tells us more about the strong nuclear forces that bind the quark and the antiquark.

The lighter partners of the Chi-b(3P) were observed in previous collision experiments around 25 years ago. This is a more excited state of Chi particle.

"Our new measurements are a great way to test theoretical calculations of the forces that act on fundamental particles, and will move us a step closer to understanding how the universe is held together," said Miriam Watson, a research fellow working in the Birmingham group .

Chi-b(3P) is also a boson, which are subatomic particles that obey Bose-Einstein statistics. A far more famous boson, the Higgs, is also being hunted for by the LHC. This theoretical field of particles is thought to give subatomic particles their mass as they wade through it.

Earlier this month, physicists from the Cern research lab in Geneva announced that they have made significant progress in the hunt for the Higgs boson, but the result does not provide definitive evidence for the long-sought particle.

With significantly more data to be gathered next year, "we can look forward to resolving this puzzle in 2012," said Atlas experiment spokesperson Fabiola Gianotti.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wolvenhaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason SETI hasn't detected anything in their search for aliens is because any sufficiently advanced civilization that can created radio, is only a short period away from discovering the higgs boson, and it destroyed their planet.


We're next.</div></div>

That's some funny shit right there.. I don't care what your IQ is.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Boys, this is way beyond my paygrade. I have no idea what any of this means. Thank God somebody does, it lets me sleep better at night just knowing someone is working at this as I write. Also knowing that our Armed forces are at the ready throughtout the world really does let me sleep better at night.Thanks for you service.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

McDonald's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if this legendary Higgs-Boson particle gives other particles mass, how does the HB get it in the first place? </div></div>
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, that's actually pretty funny! I wonder how many people have to google "schrodinger's cat" though.... </div></div>

This is cat abuse. Im calling PETA and the ASPCA.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if this legendary Higgs-Boson particle gives other particles mass, how does the HB get it in the first place? </div></div>

From traveling through an as yet undetected "force field" that creates "drag" and allows smaller, as yet undetected, sub-component particles to coalesce around it.

Either that, or McDonalds. I'd go with McDonalds. Gives a whole new meaning to "Billions and billions served..."
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Is this the same people who said they proved Einstein theory wrong about the speed of light, only to admit months later that a cable might have been loose?
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texdoug1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the same people who said they proved Einstein theory wrong about the speed of light, only to admit months later that a cable might have been loose?</div></div>

That's good stuff.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/23/cerns-loose-cable-to-blame_n_1296151.html
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texdoug1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the same people who said they proved Einstein theory wrong about the speed of light, only to admit months later that a cable might have been loose?</div></div>

Just to clear something up, the scientists at CERN didn't say they proved Einstein wrong. The neutrino OPERA experiment was getting unexpected results and the team put lots of effort into trying to figure out why and ultimately threw their hands up and asked the particle physics community to look into it. That's the reality of the situation, however it was latched onto by a scientifically ignorant media (and public) as "scientists prove Einstein wrong!".

They knew it was most likely an error in the process, primarily because previous neutrino observations matched General Relativity exactly. So to have the attitude that these guys don't know what they're doing is misplaced.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

And for anyone curious why all of this Higgs stuff is important to physicists, it's because the Standard Model is like a giant puzzle that they've been piecing together bit by bit over the last hundred years or so. The Standard Model of Particle Physics is one of the most successful and accurate scientific theories, and it has been used to explain how matter and energy interact at the smallest scales to very high precision. It explains how electromagnetism works, nuclear radiation and fusion, etc by modeling sub-atomic interactions between the fundamental building blocks of nature and the force carriers.

But over the decades, as the whole puzzle picture has been filled in more and more, there's been a glaring piece missing that explains how particles derive their masses. So thinking of this entire issue as a puzzle, imagine that as you fill in the empty parts, there's one piece you just can't find, however because the surrounding pieces fill in you start to get a good idea of what that piece must look like. The Higgs has been difficult to nail down because it's predicted to exist at higher energies than we were able to produce in supercolliders, so CERN built the LHC with the capability of reaching those predicted energy levels so that the Higgs would reveal itself.

As they perform their hunt over the last couple of years, they've been ruling out one energy range at a time. Now they've bracketed the Higgs not unlike you bracket a target with mortars - and are hammering away in the kill zone so to speak. The data coming in is showing hints of the Higgs, but in particle physics you can't just say "we found it" just because you see a spike in the data. It's all about the statistical significance of the spike or its sigma value and until they can reproduce it with a very high level of statistical certainty, they won't say definitively that they've found it.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

It's all very amazing how we are tuning our understanding of the universe, and even more amazing that no matter how much we learn, we seem to find more that we do not know.

I wonder if at some point we will reach a limit not necessarily in what we can learn, but what we can do with it. Unlocking the mysteries of things like the HB could help us develop inertial dampeners, gravitic drives, and all that other awesome sci-fi stuff. Or it might not. After all is said and done, we can't change how the universe behaves. We can only rearrange it and let it do its thing. There certainly seem to be hard limits to what the universe will allow, but the question is, how far are we from them?

At the end of the day, I am expecting control of the HB to be quickly followed up by the invention of a truly recoiless rifle. But as Dogtown has aptly mentioned, the statistics in this whole endeavor are going to be a serious b*tch.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

There will always be more to learn because scientific knowledge is like peeling an onion: you just keep exposing more layers underneath.

Regarding the neutrino "faster than light" non-controversy, the first interview on this radio program is with Dr.Phil Plait, giving a good breakdown of what happened with that experiment.
http://radio.seti.org/episodes/Skeptic_Check_Prog_Not_Stication
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

Not at all. It's been elusive because they haven't been able to search for it in the high energy ranges it's predicted to exist...until now. And in the next year or two they should have enough data to show that it does in fact exist or rule it out.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not at all. It's been elusive because they haven't been able to search for it in the high energy ranges it's predicted to exist...until now. And in the next year or two they should have enough data to show that it does in fact exist or rule it out. </div></div>

Higgs Boson, Shankster's skinny girlfriend, or the G-spot?
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

It works in quantifying expectations in both quantum physics and macros in astrophysics. As most do not follow such science; take reason or disclaimer that this aspect is not a new or an unforeseen outcome of quantified experiment. More an expected outcome of experiment itself, by 40+ years. The expectation is old enough to coin terms used in Sci-Fi.

Regardless of doctrine, it’s still far away from unification. I have some objection on "It explains how electromagnetism works, nuclear radiation and fusion". That still works on a applied level.

More invariance fun till it sucks. ARG. I still wish Einstien was wrong with Lorentz.
 
Re: Higgs boson rumors from the LHC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnycat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still curious about what makes up the Higgs bosun</div></div>

The generally accepted explanation is that it's a scalar field and as a boson, it's a force carrier particle made up of quanta of energy within that field.

The mechanism, as described by Higgs himself, is that this scalar field permeates spacetime and that particles are slowed by their interactions with it, thereby creating the property of mass. Massless particles like the photon do not interact with the Higgs field and therefore are not slowed down.

Here's a simplified explanation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUnDsNL_5nk