Ok, I've been searching like crazy, both on the web and the 'Hide, and I can't figure this out. Maybe you guys can help me with this. I'm trying to find the .308 bullet with the highest BC that will fit in a standard AI magazine. I've seen some threads discussing the highest BC for single loading, but not for fitting in a mag. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Highest BC for magazine length .308?
- Thread starter rocdoc
- Start date
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
I think you may be going about this the wrong way. Technically, I could get a 208 AMAX to fit in an AI mag if I really wanted to and the front plate was removed. That said, velocities will be way down and lighter projectiles launched at a faster rate may eclipse the performance. I think the best combos are either the 155 scenar at around 2900-2950 or the 185 berger long range in the 2500-2550 range.
I have not shot the 185 berger, but Bryan Litz uses it for most of his .308 shooting when bullet weight is not an issue. I run a TRG which has mags that allow a 2.95" COAL, so I don't have quite the problems with length. Do some calculations on jbmballistics.com to sort out your needs.
Josh
I think you may be going about this the wrong way. Technically, I could get a 208 AMAX to fit in an AI mag if I really wanted to and the front plate was removed. That said, velocities will be way down and lighter projectiles launched at a faster rate may eclipse the performance. I think the best combos are either the 155 scenar at around 2900-2950 or the 185 berger long range in the 2500-2550 range.
I have not shot the 185 berger, but Bryan Litz uses it for most of his .308 shooting when bullet weight is not an issue. I run a TRG which has mags that allow a 2.95" COAL, so I don't have quite the problems with length. Do some calculations on jbmballistics.com to sort out your needs.
Josh
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
Keep an eye out for the new Hornady 178 BTHP that is being used in the Superformance when they release it later this year as a component. It has a BC of .535 and should easily be sent out of a .308 in the 2650-2750fps range depending on barrel type and length.
Keep an eye out for the new Hornady 178 BTHP that is being used in the Superformance when they release it later this year as a component. It has a BC of .535 and should easily be sent out of a .308 in the 2650-2750fps range depending on barrel type and length.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
Thanks Josh. I was looking for bullets that would fit a standard AI mag and be practical, which the 208 obviously isn't, as you mentioned. I didn't think the 185 Berger would make it either, but that's where I'm not sure.
Rob, that looks like a winner to me. That's even better than the 175gr Berger with a BC of .515 (the highest BC of any .308 less than 180gr according to Appllied Ballistics).
My understanding was that bullets above 180 were too long for standard AI mags (practically speaking, not theoretically). Is that incorrect?
Thanks Josh. I was looking for bullets that would fit a standard AI mag and be practical, which the 208 obviously isn't, as you mentioned. I didn't think the 185 Berger would make it either, but that's where I'm not sure.
Rob, that looks like a winner to me. That's even better than the 175gr Berger with a BC of .515 (the highest BC of any .308 less than 180gr according to Appllied Ballistics).
My understanding was that bullets above 180 were too long for standard AI mags (practically speaking, not theoretically). Is that incorrect?
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
" I've seen some threads discussing the highest BC for single loading, but not for fitting in a mag. "
I don't think there is any correlation; a magazine won't care what the BC of any loaded projectile is. Seat it as necessary to fit and feed, develop your load and shoot them the same as any other bullets.
" I've seen some threads discussing the highest BC for single loading, but not for fitting in a mag. "
I don't think there is any correlation; a magazine won't care what the BC of any loaded projectile is. Seat it as necessary to fit and feed, develop your load and shoot them the same as any other bullets.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob, that looks like a winner to me. That's even better than the 175gr Berger with a BC of .515 (the highest BC of any .308 less than 180gr according to Appllied Ballistics).</div></div>
rocdoc,
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. I would wait until they get tested before jumping to the conclusion that they are better than the VLDs. I don't shoot bergers much because of the cost, but they tend to be as good and mostly better, when it comes to BC than most any other large brand.
Josh
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob, that looks like a winner to me. That's even better than the 175gr Berger with a BC of .515 (the highest BC of any .308 less than 180gr according to Appllied Ballistics).</div></div>
rocdoc,
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. I would wait until they get tested before jumping to the conclusion that they are better than the VLDs. I don't shoot bergers much because of the cost, but they tend to be as good and mostly better, when it comes to BC than most any other large brand.
Josh
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
Good point Josh. Marketing at most companies tends to be "optimistic". I'll definitely wait to see some independent testing.
Fuzzball, I guess that's what I was talking about earlier with Josh. Seating as necessary to fit and feed from a mag may be impractical with a bullet that's too long/heavy.
Good point Josh. Marketing at most companies tends to be "optimistic". I'll definitely wait to see some independent testing.
Fuzzball, I guess that's what I was talking about earlier with Josh. Seating as necessary to fit and feed from a mag may be impractical with a bullet that's too long/heavy.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. </div></div>
Not true. Off the top of my head I can say the 6.5mm 140 AMAX is higher than published per Litz testing and higher than the 139 Scenar as well. I don't have my Litz book at work but I am sure there are others.
As a note I have used the published data in JBM and have shot 178 AMAX, 140 AMAX, 208 AMAX and 105 AMAX to 1000+ and have always been within a couple tenths of a mil.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. </div></div>
Not true. Off the top of my head I can say the 6.5mm 140 AMAX is higher than published per Litz testing and higher than the 139 Scenar as well. I don't have my Litz book at work but I am sure there are others.
As a note I have used the published data in JBM and have shot 178 AMAX, 140 AMAX, 208 AMAX and 105 AMAX to 1000+ and have always been within a couple tenths of a mil.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I think the best combos are either the 155 scenar at around 2900-2950 or the 185 berger long range in the 2500-2550 range. Josh </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... which the 208 obviously isn't, as you mentioned. </div></div>
Using Litz figures in JBM:
185's@2550mv still sonic @1200yds(used match target boat tail)
155's@2950mv still sonic @1100yds(2156)
208's@2320mv still sonic @1100yds +plus+ less windage
DPMS SASS 18"bbl 1:10 twist
38.0gr H4895
CCI BR primers
Winchester brass
COAL 2.810" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
20" barrel would be even faster(plus ~100fps...)
use that search box!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I think the best combos are either the 155 scenar at around 2900-2950 or the 185 berger long range in the 2500-2550 range. Josh </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... which the 208 obviously isn't, as you mentioned. </div></div>
Using Litz figures in JBM:
185's@2550mv still sonic @1200yds(used match target boat tail)
155's@2950mv still sonic @1100yds(2156)
208's@2320mv still sonic @1100yds +plus+ less windage
DPMS SASS 18"bbl 1:10 twist
38.0gr H4895
CCI BR primers
Winchester brass
COAL 2.810" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
20" barrel would be even faster(plus ~100fps...)
use that search box!
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
"Fuzzball, I guess that's what I was talking about earlier with Josh. Seating as necessary to fit and feed from a mag may be impractical with a bullet that's too long/heavy."
Understand, but my point is that the practical maximum bullet length is dependant on the fired spin rate, not the magazine. Any unsual bullet length will intrude into powder space but that won't matter if the load is developed normally and the spin rate is sufficent for stabalization.
"Fuzzball, I guess that's what I was talking about earlier with Josh. Seating as necessary to fit and feed from a mag may be impractical with a bullet that's too long/heavy."
Understand, but my point is that the practical maximum bullet length is dependant on the fired spin rate, not the magazine. Any unsual bullet length will intrude into powder space but that won't matter if the load is developed normally and the spin rate is sufficent for stabalization.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
I have used the 208 AMAX projo in my AIAW 308. I can still load it to 2.940" (can't remember exactly). I can push it up to 2650 fps. I can reach way out 1500+ here in the desert. Doc, the point is to pick a projo that will shoot well in your gun. Of course, pick the highest BC projos. Usually, the higer BC correlates to a heavier projos, which tend to be a bit longer. With longer projos, you may not have enough mag. length to seat it accordingly and therefore you have to watch for the pressure as you work up the load. Hope that helps.
I have used the 208 AMAX projo in my AIAW 308. I can still load it to 2.940" (can't remember exactly). I can push it up to 2650 fps. I can reach way out 1500+ here in the desert. Doc, the point is to pick a projo that will shoot well in your gun. Of course, pick the highest BC projos. Usually, the higer BC correlates to a heavier projos, which tend to be a bit longer. With longer projos, you may not have enough mag. length to seat it accordingly and therefore you have to watch for the pressure as you work up the load. Hope that helps.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. </div></div>
Not true. Off the top of my head I can say the 6.5mm 140 AMAX is higher than published per Litz testing and higher than the 139 Scenar as well. I don't have my Litz book at work but I am sure there are others.
As a note I have used the published data in JBM and have shot 178 AMAX, 140 AMAX, 208 AMAX and 105 AMAX to 1000+ and have always been within a couple tenths of a mil. </div></div>
Rob,
I fully respect you and am not attempting a pissing match here. That said, the 140 tested almost exactly as published by Hornady for Litz. Not higher, but damn close to right on.
The 139 scenar advertised BC is almost 10% higher than actually tested.
Again, this is no hit on Hornady. Sierra is fairly optimistic as well based on the real world. However, these companies tend to use computer simulations and modeling to generate the BCs. Being with a couple points is almost a certainty with these models. The OP was asking for the "highest BC" and I was pointing out the fact that until the bullet is actually tested by being fired from a rifle you can only assume all the parameters were exactly correct in the simulation.
Honestly, there are tons of great projectiles from any number of companies. BC does not ALWAYS make the difference. If you can't launch it at a reasonable speed you are selling yourself short. Find the best combo by testing it in your rifle and seeing what kind of pressures you can support. Every rifle is different...find your sweet spot.
Josh
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Nothing against Hornady, but there other offerings have always had BCs that were higher than actually tested. </div></div>
Not true. Off the top of my head I can say the 6.5mm 140 AMAX is higher than published per Litz testing and higher than the 139 Scenar as well. I don't have my Litz book at work but I am sure there are others.
As a note I have used the published data in JBM and have shot 178 AMAX, 140 AMAX, 208 AMAX and 105 AMAX to 1000+ and have always been within a couple tenths of a mil. </div></div>
Rob,
I fully respect you and am not attempting a pissing match here. That said, the 140 tested almost exactly as published by Hornady for Litz. Not higher, but damn close to right on.
The 139 scenar advertised BC is almost 10% higher than actually tested.
Again, this is no hit on Hornady. Sierra is fairly optimistic as well based on the real world. However, these companies tend to use computer simulations and modeling to generate the BCs. Being with a couple points is almost a certainty with these models. The OP was asking for the "highest BC" and I was pointing out the fact that until the bullet is actually tested by being fired from a rifle you can only assume all the parameters were exactly correct in the simulation.
Honestly, there are tons of great projectiles from any number of companies. BC does not ALWAYS make the difference. If you can't launch it at a reasonable speed you are selling yourself short. Find the best combo by testing it in your rifle and seeing what kind of pressures you can support. Every rifle is different...find your sweet spot.
Josh
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
I havnt read everything read above so please dont flame if this is off the topic.
Any 30 cal bullet will fit into a .308 case and can be made to fit in an AI mag.
The projectile is not the deciding factor for mag length bullets... Its down to the rifle and what you want out of your bullet.
Some .308s can have their 155 scenars loaded mag length and shoot great... some cannot
Some might load mag length and get 1moa at 100 and be happy... some might not
Some might load beyond mag length and get 1/4moa at 100, but some might not like single loading...
make sense?
I havnt read everything read above so please dont flame if this is off the topic.
Any 30 cal bullet will fit into a .308 case and can be made to fit in an AI mag.
The projectile is not the deciding factor for mag length bullets... Its down to the rifle and what you want out of your bullet.
Some .308s can have their 155 scenars loaded mag length and shoot great... some cannot
Some might load mag length and get 1moa at 100 and be happy... some might not
Some might load beyond mag length and get 1/4moa at 100, but some might not like single loading...
make sense?
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
There's a couple guys on here loading 185 scenars and 208 amax to 2.8 mag length and they say it works well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good point Josh. Marketing at most companies tends to be "optimistic". I'll definitely wait to see some independent testing.
</div></div>
Well, if I remember right the BC depends on velocity and altitude as well - it's not ironclad. So if you have a bullet that is .500 at sea level it'll fly as if it's a .550 or so when you get way up in altitude.
There's a couple guys on here loading 185 scenars and 208 amax to 2.8 mag length and they say it works well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good point Josh. Marketing at most companies tends to be "optimistic". I'll definitely wait to see some independent testing.
</div></div>
Well, if I remember right the BC depends on velocity and altitude as well - it's not ironclad. So if you have a bullet that is .500 at sea level it'll fly as if it's a .550 or so when you get way up in altitude.
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
Just goes to show I've got a lot to learn. I was under the mistaken assumption that the longer bullets (>180gr) would leave too little case capacity to achieve adequate velocity if loaded to mag length. I had no idea it could be done with a 208 Amax! I guess it's more a matter of finding the right balance between BC and velocity for a particular rifle. Thanks for the info!
Just goes to show I've got a lot to learn. I was under the mistaken assumption that the longer bullets (>180gr) would leave too little case capacity to achieve adequate velocity if loaded to mag length. I had no idea it could be done with a 208 Amax! I guess it's more a matter of finding the right balance between BC and velocity for a particular rifle. Thanks for the info!
Re: Highest BC for magazine length .308?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just goes to show I've got a lot to learn. I was under the mistaken assumption that the longer bullets (>180gr) would leave too little case capacity to achieve adequate velocity if loaded to mag length. I had no idea it could be done with a 208 Amax! I guess it's more a matter of finding the right balance between BC and velocity for a particular rifle. Thanks for the info! </div></div>
If you look in the 308 thread in the reloading depot there is a guy shooting 208 amaxs mag length out of a dpms sass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just goes to show I've got a lot to learn. I was under the mistaken assumption that the longer bullets (>180gr) would leave too little case capacity to achieve adequate velocity if loaded to mag length. I had no idea it could be done with a 208 Amax! I guess it's more a matter of finding the right balance between BC and velocity for a particular rifle. Thanks for the info! </div></div>
If you look in the 308 thread in the reloading depot there is a guy shooting 208 amaxs mag length out of a dpms sass.
