Holding Elevation @ 200 yards+ What effects more: ammo ES or Wind??

[300ATT]

Getting excited about HRL .22 matches so I pulled my Sako Finnfire Range out of mothballs and mounted and IOR tactical scope and have started to test the rig shooting dots at 25, 50, 100 and 200 yards at the local range. The gun shoots very well and will group in the .1's and .2's at 50 yards and 1/2 MOA at 100 yds. with ELEY or Federal Ultra match - indoors - no wind.

I tested the gun out the AM with ELEY Edge ammo and it grouped 0.2"-0.3" at 50 yds and was repeatable hitting 1/4", 1/2" and 2" dots at 25-100 yards respectively. At these nearer distances the gun/ammo would hold 1/4-1/3" elevation at 50yd and 3/4"-1" at 100 yards; however when I shot it at 200 I experienced elevation issues that I did not expect. I would have expected the gun to hold 1.5"-3" elevation @ 200 but it seemed to vary 4-7 inches. Wind was in my face variable 1-7 mph fish-tailing from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

So for those Hide members out there that have a lot more experience shooting precision .22's beyond 200 yards, how much does ES variation in the ammo contribute to elevation issues at distance vs. wind push/pull on the bullet??


Thx.

 

[Dirtracer151]

It has a huge effect.

i strapped a magneto to my Sako last year and had a friend plot each shot along with the FPS. It got to where we could look at the paper and guess the velocity without even looking at the magneto.

 

[TheGerman]

It's very ammo dependent at 200+. If you can constantly group at 100, its not like the gun takes a shit accuracy wise going further; its all in the ammo spread opening your cone of accuracy up.

I still see rounds impact slightly left/right of the target and then all of a sudden one goes 3 feet off somewhere. But for most misses, the wind will account for the error as the majority of misses I see at 250+ is in line with the target vertically, its just off to the side.

 

[NOMAD]

You also need to remember we are pushing a .22 LR 2 times or more past its capability. For a very long Time these ammo companies have been focused at making there top of the line .22 ammo perfect for 50 yard/meter type shooting. Now we have created a new sport and are now pushing the envelope.

Stuff that groups at 50 and 100 may be some of the worst at 200 and 300. Thats why you need to test it all at the max distances and chose the lesser of the evil.

 

[300ATT]

"Lesser of two evils". Gotcha. Sounds like I need to do some more serous testing at 200. I ass-u-me'd that if the Ammo holds 1/2" elevation at 100 it ought to hold 2" at 200. Stupid me.

Thanks all for the input. Any other tricks of the trade worth sharing would be appreciated.

 

[jbell]

.

Stuff that groups at 50 and 100 may be some of the worst at 200 and 300. Thats why you need to test it all at the max distances and chose the lesser of the evil.

So true!

But on the ES vs wind call: IMO the best you can do is find a Brand & lot of ammo that shoots well @ distance and has as small of an ES as you can find. Knowing you have the best ammo available for the task you can then just worry about making the correct wind call.

 

[300ATT]

Another question: at what distance does ".22 ELR" start? Oxymoron I know. Just wondered if there were agreed upon distances such as
25-50 Yds - short range
75-150 yards - mid range
150-250 - long range
250 - ELR?

 

[jbell]

Keep in mind that these little pills going so slow out past 100 yards can be pushed up or down by the wind way more than a fast high BC centerfire bullet. Meaning substantial POI shifts in elevation may be caused by wind depending on the terrain your shooting over. I have seen it more than once when shooting over berms with a "no value" head or tail wind.

 

[TheGerman]

Another question: at what distance does ".22 ELR" start? Oxymoron I know. Just wondered if there were agreed upon distances such as
25-50 Yds - short range
75-150 yards - mid range
150-250 - long range
250 - ELR?

I was going to say 200, but close enough.

For me, 250ish is the limit of where I am extremely confidant I can get a hit almost every time on a 3 inch gong. After that I can still make hits, but the variables REALLY come into play from wind, wind gradients you have no idea how to gauge as well as your position, trigger and follow through having to be 100% as even 90% will get you a miss. Here's a post from the other week shooting at 243 and 315y. https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...per-s-hide-rimfire-section/6743637-315y-today

 

[JG26_Irish]

People often ask, "Why is it that my rifle will shoot 1/2 moa at 50y but it will not shoot half moa at 200y?" This is a valid question. For the most part the answer is wind variance and its impact on the POI. Out past 200y, it is becoming one of the dominant variables. In my opinion, 200y is about where the ammo and wind variances are just about equal but that is a huge generality since wind speed, direction and variability all affect its impact on your accuracy. Where I shoot winds are usually light to mid-speed but highly variable so, my variance may be higher than yours if you live where steady straight line winds are the norm as is the case in the flat plains. I have hills, valleys, treelines, etc all which combine to affect the shot.

Irish

 

[300ATT]

I want to thank those that responded, the information you posted was helpful and led me to run a 200 yard test of the best shooting 100 yard ammo.

The winds were relatively calm (0-4 mph at 9 - o'clock). I shot 5-shot groups of Federal ultra match, Eley Edge, Eley Match(Remington) and Eley Tennex at 3" shoot-n-c spotters at 200 yards.
Each of these loadings shoots well at 50 and 100 yards (1/2 MOA or better).

I shot off a bench with bags and adjusted the elevation knob (6.8 mils) for 200 and held center (ignoring wind) in order to measure elevation spread of each group:

FWIW here are the results:

Fed Ultra Match - 3.25" elevation spread at 200 yards
Eley Edge - 1.25"
Eley Match - 1.0"
Eley Tenex - 0.5"

I was impressed with Tenex, so much so I didn't believe the results and shot another 5-shot group and the elevation spread of the second group measured 5/8". So I can confirm what was already stated - ammo that shoots really well at 50 may not perform at 100 and ammo that shoots really well at 100 (Ultra Match) may not shoot well at 200 and beyond - you need to test. I was impressed with how consistent the Eley ammo was in POI (velocity) between Edge, Match and Tenex and how well Tenex held elevation.

I learned that doping the wind at 200 with .22 feels an awful lot like making wind calls with a .308 at 800-900 yards ... so fun, I think I am hooked ...

 

[JG26_Irish]

200 yard test of the best shooting 100 yard ammo.

The winds were relatively calm (0-4 mph at 9 - o'clock). I shot 5-shot groups of Federal ultra match, Eley Edge, Eley Match(Remington) and Eley Tennex at 3" shoot-n-c spotters at 200 yards.
Each of these loadings shoots well at 50 and 100 yards (1/2 MOA or better).

I shot off a bench with bags and adjusted the elevation knob (6.8 mils) for 200 and held center (ignoring wind) in order to measure elevation spread of each group:

FWIW here are the results:

Fed Ultra Match - 3.25" elevation spread at 200 yards
Eley Edge - 1.25"
Eley Match - 1.0"
Eley Tenex - 0.5"

I was impressed with Tenex, so much so I didn't believe the results and shot another 5-shot group and the elevation spread of the second group measured 5/8". So I can confirm what was already stated - ammo that shoots really well at 50 may not perform at 100 and ammo that shoots really well at 100 (Ultra Match) may not shoot well at 200 and beyond - you need to test. I was impressed with how consistent the Eley ammo was in POI (velocity) between Edge, Match and Tenex and how well Tenex held elevation.

I learned that doping the wind at 200 with .22 feels an awful lot like making wind calls with a .308 at 800-900 yards ... so fun, I think I am hooked ...

Welcome to 22lr ELR shooting. That Sako seems to like that lot of the 10x ammo. 1/2" is impressive for 200y. Far better than I can do. You need to knuckle down and shoot a 200y 6x5 tgt now while you still have enough of that 10x on hand. It is funny how every rifle is different. I tried shooting Eley long range in some of my guns and it never performed as well as it does at 50y. Plus, I have never had any gun that shot the 10x better than a fresh lot of Eley Black. But that is the stuff that makes it fun. Enjoy.

Irish

 

[TheGerman]

Tried a little test today at 265.

Put a USPS large shipping box (folded) out there with a orange sticker on it. Shot 5 round groups to see where it would land in relation to what I thought the holds were, and more importantly to really see what the elevation spread on the Center X ammo looked like.

It was basically stringing almost perfectly vertical and there's definitely some velocity spread in it. Looked like it was a ladder test.

At 265 the bottom round was 5 inches from the top of the top round, with 3 rounds within 1.5 inches of each other in the middle. Did this a few times and it seems that out of 5 rounds, 3 of them seem to always be pretty close velocity wise and then you have 1-2 that are a bit off. I'm curious if switching up to Midas + will cut the spread a bit as this makes perfect sense as to why I can get hits 2-3 in a row and then there's 1 round at that distance that flys above the target .2mils.

Ammo here is a huge factor just as wind is, but 250+ with a 22LR is very doable and I've been doing this for quite a while.

 

[jbell]

Tried a little test today at 265.

Put a USPS large shipping box (folded) out there with a orange sticker on it. Shot 5 round groups to see where it would land in relation to what I thought the holds were, and more importantly to really see what the elevation spread on the Center X ammo looked like.

It was basically stringing almost perfectly vertical and there's definitely some velocity spread in it. Looked like it was a ladder test.

At 265 the bottom round was 5 inches from the top of the top round, with 3 rounds within 1.5 inches of each other in the middle. Did this a few times and it seems that out of 5 rounds, 3 of them seem to always be pretty close velocity wise and then you have 1-2 that are a bit off. I'm curious if switching up to Midas + will cut the spread a bit as this makes perfect sense as to why I can get hits 2-3 in a row and then there's 1 round at that distance that flys above the target .2mils.

Ammo here is a huge factor just as wind is, but 250+ with a 22LR is very doable and I've been doing this for quite a while.

I have shot a lot of groups at similar distances with VERY similar results. A good shooting rifle will stack 3 (sometimes 4) into a nice tight sub MOA or much less group and then have usually 2 out with one above center and one below center. I have tested that with Center X, Midas, Eley Match, Tenex, R50, R100, Wolf, SK, Federal GM (2 different grades) and on average most show that kind of dispersion, just varying degrees...

 

[308pirate]

I ass-u-me'd that if the Ammo holds 1/2" elevation at 100 it ought to hold 2" at 200.

You pretty much need to forget how centerfire match bullets behave when dealing with 22LR rimfire

 

[RTH1800]

Wind at 6 or 12 will cause vertical dispersion. Sure most of you know that but not sure it was addressed in thread.

 

[300ATT]

Here's a pic of the test targets. The top 2" row of dots was shot at 100 yards after I shot the vertical 3" dots at 200 yards. Wind was 2-4 mph from 7-8 o'clock, temp 62 degrees. I shot starting at the bottom dot with Federal Ultra-match and working my way up. I held left edge on each dot not worrying about trying to dope the wind.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i84.photobucket.com\/albums\/k29\/indunajr\/2017.11.28.ammo.test_zpsxwxcbzgg.jpg"}[/IMG2][/URL]

I then moved the target to 100 yards and shot the top dots. The wind started picking up as shot the last 200 yard group (notice the 'weather report' shaped group of the Eley Tenex @ 200) and it started to blow 6-12 mph when I shot at 100.

All in all I learned a few things:

0.) YOU HAVE TO TEST AT EACH DISTANCE ...
1.) The gun shoots better than I can ... I guess that is what we all strive for ...
2.) The Federal Ultra Match that shoots well inside 100 did not do as well as Eley at 200
3.) Eley tenex must have very consistent velocities to hold 1/2" elecation at 200
4.) 6.8 Mils of elevation to get to 200 yards (with Eley) and about 0.8 mils of wind hold in 3 mph crosswind

Next test - find out what happens when the wind is hard in your face or from behind to see how much dispersion to expect. I expect it to play havok with these little slow moving bullets. Very interesting.

 

[TheGerman]

I've been testing this 'theory' but wanted some other guys to try it out as well.

We all know the trajectory on a 22 going out to 200, 250+ is high. And even if we were 100% certain of the wind at the gun, midway and at the target, the higher up you go the more the wind blows. For example, the wind may be a very stead 5mph in your face, but 6 feet or so in the air its probably blowing 1-3mph faster.

To counter this, because I've noticed especially with a 22 at these Rimfire ELR ™ distances that I'm usually not holding enough wind at first. Even with the Kestrel at the gun, and taking my time getting constant readings at the target, the results on the target are telling me its not enough wind adjustment - mainly because its going through wind levels/layers above that are faster.

What to do to 'test' this:

- Run a JBM range card, or use your ballistics app for your 22 round

- Make sure to get information that tells you how much drop the round has, in inches, for your distances (for 22 at distance I have every 10 yards on my card). Make sure to have the drop calculation start at the gun, not at your zero range

- On your range card, find where your drop is listed every 6 feet in inches, ie 72 inches, 144 inches, etc. (I may adjust this up or down to 4,5, 7 feet, etc as the testing goes)

- At the first 6 foot interval notate a 1, at the second notate a 2, at the 3rd notate a 3, etc.

- The numbers are what you add to your wind call for every 5mph wind you are calling. For example, a distance within the 2 range (144 inches - 216 inches, if it goes that far) you add 2 mph for every 5mph you would call, so a 5mph is a 7mph, a 10 is a 14, etc.

From my initial testing of this, at least for me, I've been very successful on first round hits at distance assuming the error wasn't elevation.

Let me know how this works, any tweaks, etc. Like I said, just testing the idea.

 

[jbell]

Very interesting theory, I would honestly have to test it to see how repeatable it is. Unfortunately my only "precision" rimfire is off having a new barrel hung on it (its a bit of a resurrection project), so I will not be able to try this out for a while. But I would guess if this holds true it may mean the ballistic models used or the software being uses is not accurately following the velocity drop in with the rimfire there fore can’t calculate the correct wind call.

Or could it be as simple as these bullets are just getting very unstable at distances over 200 yards and it doesn't take hardly any wind at all to disturb their flight path in odd/unexpected ways? So they become very unpredictable?... I am not really sure about this, just thinking out loud. I am going to think on it more and definitely start testing it out more in depth when I get my Anschutz back.

 

[steve123]

I've been testing this 'theory' but wanted some other guys to try it out as well.

We all know the trajectory on a 22 going out to 200, 250+ is high. And even if we were 100% certain of the wind at the gun, midway and at the target, the higher up you go the more the wind blows. For example, the wind may be a very stead 5mph in your face, but 6 feet or so in the air its probably blowing 1-3mph faster.

To counter this, because I've noticed especially with a 22 at these Rimfire ELR ™ distances that I'm usually not holding enough wind at first. Even with the Kestrel at the gun, and taking my time getting constant readings at the target, the results on the target are telling me its not enough wind adjustment - mainly because its going through wind levels/layers above that are faster.

What to do to 'test' this:

- Run a JBM range card, or use your ballistics app for your 22 round

- Make sure to get information that tells you how much drop the round has, in inches, for your distances (for 22 at distance I have every 10 yards on my card). Make sure to have the drop calculation start at the gun, not at your zero range

- On your range card, find where your drop is listed every 6 feet in inches, ie 72 inches, 144 inches, etc. (I may adjust this up or down to 4,5, 7 feet, etc as the testing goes)

- At the first 6 foot interval notate a 1, at the second notate a 2, at the 3rd notate a 3, etc.

- The numbers are what you add to your wind call for every 5mph wind you are calling. For example, a distance within the 2 range (144 inches - 216 inches, if it goes that far) you add 2 mph for every 5mph you would call, so a 5mph is a 7mph, a 10 is a 14, etc.

From my initial testing of this, at least for me, I've been very successful on first round hits at distance assuming the error wasn't elevation.

Let me know how this works, any tweaks, etc. Like I said, just testing the idea.

I've been doing similar with all the rifles I shoot, centerfire, rimfire and even air rifles. The reason why is because the trend is missing wide to the wind more often than inside the wind. Well keeping it simple I'd rather err to the inside of the wind which more often than not results in a well centered hit vs just relying on what the ballistic calculator states.

Of course the wind is always throwing a doozy, and like Irish mentioned, land features coupled with variable conditions disrupt what we would think is a good call into a WTF moment.

A good example of the above phenomenon was what my friend, who shot the Extreme Benchrest Match a month ago, with his 25 cal FX Crown air rifle, experienced (that thing is capable of sub moa at 100Y no problem). I want him to come shoot with us at our NRL 22 match with it and think he could win, he won the FT nationals this year BTW! See what I have to compete against, LOL.
Onto the story, you drew tables, and flat out, the guys that got the bad table locations didn't stand a chance of winning. The land features cause zones of swirls which affect vertical and horizontal, and of course "much" more so than a 22rf would have because these pellets only have a .045BC and are only going 860 fps.

 

[300ATT]

The wind gradient definitely increases as you go up and I think Mr. German may be on to something. Unfortunately there are 15' berms surrounding the range where I shoot and they seem to provide "significant" terrain induced variables when the wind is from any direction except from behind. I shot today with the wind pumping from behind and saw a lot (4"-5") of elevation spread that is normally 1" or less on a dead calm day. With the wind at 6-11 mph from behind I noticed that i had to reduce my 200 yd elevation by 0.3 mils ... .22 ELR is definitely a challenge.

 

[300ATT]

Will try to find some flat land to shoot to test Mr German's approach ... what size targets? 2-4 MOA?

 

[MMH]

This is an interesting thread. I am thinking about getting a precision 22, thinking that the practice I would get at 100 yards would be valuable for my centerfire 600 & 1000 yard work.

I never thought that a 22LR could be shot at 200 yards and beyond for anything other than just horsing around. With the crappy ballistics and low velocity, if one can read the wind w/ a 22LR at 200 I imagine that the skill developed will pay dividends shooting a 5.56 at 600 yards and .308 at 1000 yards.

Now I'm really excited about shooting 22!

 

[justin amateur]

Ammunition quality is everything at 200 yards.
I can wait for the flags to indicate when to squeeze,
but there's nothing I can do to compensate for varying muzzle velocities.
200 yards is where I spend my time with my assortment of rimfires.
Match grade 22lr will show 1/10th inch of vertical spread for 1 fps difference in mv.
Typical Midas+, RWS R50, Tenex will chronograph about 40 fps ES for a box of 50.
That works out to 4 inches of vertical spread for those 50 shots.
RFC CZ forum is running a monthly 200 yard rimfire competition at this time,
10 shot groups with rimfire at 200 yards and sub-moa results have been turned in.
Even I've been able to accomplish that particular task,
and did not win with a 1.7 inch 10 shot group.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/jJXSzXF.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[TheGerman]

The wind gradient definitely increases as you go up and I think Mr. German may be on to something. Unfortunately there are 15' berms surrounding the range where I shoot and they seem to provide "significant" terrain induced variables when the wind is from any direction except from behind. I shot today with the wind pumping from behind and saw a lot (4"-5") of elevation spread that is normally 1" or less on a dead calm day. With the wind at 6-11 mph from behind I noticed that i had to reduce my 200 yd elevation by 0.3 mils ... .22 ELR is definitely a challenge.

You are correct; gradients exist but overall with centerfire aren't too prevalent unless you're going VERY far out. I usually give a bit more of a wind call as is, but shooting 'ELR' with 22LR a lot this year I've noticed that even a 2mph wind call error will make a huge difference whereas with a 6.5, 308, 300, etc you may just be slightly opening your group size up.

I noticed that I always seemed to be off in initial wind calls by almost the same amount each time regardless of how much time I spent measuring wind at both the gun and at the target. Once I started to account for wind that didn't exist (even just a little) I'm making first round hits. With centerfire you're normally putting your wind call in a bracket, 7-10, 12-15, etc. With the 22 at long distance every 1 mph counts. and this initial method/theory is to try and cut down on the lost wind values.

 

[TheGerman]

Will try to find some flat land to shoot to test Mr German's approach ... what size targets? 2-4 MOA?

Target size isn't too important for testing or practice as long as you know where your rounds are going, and why.

Also note that at 274ish yards, a 4 inch clay is only .4MIL vertical/horizontal. At that distance a full value 5mph wind (i.e. next to no wind) requires 1.3MILS of horizontal adjustment. That's 3 times the size of the target.

For further distances, especially if I don't have a good berm that will show the impact splashes, I put up a flat cardboard box behind it to see where my rounds went, how close together they were as well as if they are all vertically spread yet I held for the wind the exact same each shot.

The other part of this is to update your range card. I found at some distances my card was 100% on as far as elevation, and at further distances I always had to add more elevation; this can be from your velocity being off or just the total shit BC the 40g round is. Verify the range, record the adjustment as well as temperature and DA - the cardboard backer lets you know exactly where you were hitting.

Once I have everything dialed in/verified, I'll normally shoot 4 inch clays at 250-300+, as well as 2 inch and 3.6inch metal spinners from 150-275ish.

 

[300ATT]

Shooting a .22 @ 200 with eley running at 1085 fps is very much like shooting a 308 at 800 yards they blow around about the same except I get more vertical dispersion than I ever see with the .308.

 

[300ATT]

Well for fun I went out the range today. Wind was fishtailing from 6 o'clock at 18 mph gusting to 27 mph. The gun shot decent at 50, 75 and 100 ... but at 200 in those conditions I saw an elevation spread of 8" for ammo that will normally hold 1" or less at 200 yards (Eley Match). The small diamonds were shot at 50 yards (approx 1/4") then moved target to 75 yards and shot at the next size up (approx. 3/4"), then moved to 100 yards and shot the diamonds that were about 1.5". Then I moved the target to 200 yards to shoot a 6"-ish diamond around a 3" spotter and it got noticeably harder.


The range is set up such that there are 20' berms on either side out to 100 yards which sort of would funnel the wind. Then the wind has to launch over a 12' berm cross-ways at 100 on the way to 200. I assume that this would create an eddy as it goes over the 100 yard berm which greatly affects elevation with ammo that can hold 1" elevation at 200 on a calm day ... Don't know if there is anyway to better deal with this - suggestions?

 

[justin amateur]

Don't know if there is anyway to better deal with this - suggestions?

Absolutely, laugh, loudly, it's what I do on those days where timing gusts is the challenge.
Trying to judge the right moment to squeeze and getting hammered by a gust is normal.

 

[steve123]

Yep, next time I suggest staying home and drinking coffee while catching up on reloading for the centerfire, lol. Been there... and that's why I became a fair weather shooter.

 

[300ATT]

Hee, hee, yeah I guess there's a new use for the kestrel: tell you when its time to pack up, go home and do something more productive ... but things worked well in the same wind before the Bullets had to pass over the 100 yd berm.

I guess the the solution is to shoot on a flat bermless range or indoors.

 

[justin amateur]

Nope, not going to shoot indoors.
Still going to be at the 200 yard range even if it's gusting 30.
How can you learn if the conditions are always optimum.
I prefer the challenge of making a difficult shot
compared to the blandness of shooting in dead air.

 

[300ATT]

It definitely adds a new dimension to reading the wind (vertical) that doesn't really show up with centerfire at PRS distances.