Hornady 4Dof question

[CZp-01]

Be easy on me here as I'm new to ballistic apps and some longer range shooting.

I'm just curious on how to properly read this wind data. If the arrow points to the left is it a .80 hold to the left and vice versa if it points right? I dialed the wind hold.

Shot this target at 500yds and ended up left of center (POA) and wasn't sure if I was right on what it was telling me.

Appreciate your help.

 

[Steel head]

Hold left .8

If that group was using that hold then wind didn’t have as much effect as what you inputted for it.

 

[CZp-01]

Hold left .8

If that group was using that hold then wind didn’t have as much effect as what you inputted for it.

So, Shooter sucks...lol

 

[Steel head]

So, Shooter sucks...lol

Not necessarily.
judging winds is tough.
Often the wind you feel isn’t the wind that has the biggest effect on the bullet.

Or you plugged in a high value and shot the low value.

 

[CZp-01]

Or you plugged in a high value and shot the low value.

What exactly does this mean if you don't mind? Or where can on read on it?

 

[Steel head]

If I have variable winds I do wind holds for the high and low value, say a hold for 8mph and a hold for 14mprh and I only shot on a steady high or low and wait on the often unsteady transitions or if it’s switching directions I’ll do a hold for the predominant direction.

You may of plugging in for a 14mph but shot when it was actually a 6mph or direction change

 

[CZp-01]

If I have variable winds I do wind holds for the high and low value, say a hold for 8mph and a hold for 14mprh and I only shot on a steady high or low and wait on the often unsteady transitions or if it’s switching directions I’ll do a hold for the predominant direction.

You may of plugging in for a 14mph but shot when it was actually a 6mph or direction change

That makes sense and I did try to shoot when it wasn't gusting so much. Appreciate that tid bit.

 

[Schw15]

I noticed your altitude was on 0 maybe that could effect it alittle. But also alot of times when wind is blowing at that angle it wont really effect the wind hold side to side as much as you think in my experience. I had a 18 mph wind coming at 10 oclock while hunting shot was over 600 yards i held just a touch of wind and shouldnt of

 

[CZp-01]

I noticed your altitude was on 0 maybe that could effect it alittle. But also alot of times when wind is blowing at that angle it wont really effect the wind hold side to side as much as you think in my experience. I had a 18 mph wind coming at 10 oclock while hunting shot was over 600 yards i held just a touch of wind and shouldnt of

Thanks, I noticed that as well. I adjusted for it after it was 89'. I don't think it changed it any.

 

[OldHistorian]

That is a nice group at 500 yards; your rifle and ammo are doing a nice job, and so are you. How quickly did you deliver those five rounds?
I ask because it has some bearing on the discussion. You said that you waited for the lulls; if so, you did a good job of judging those.
Steady wind is easier to hold for, especially once you can see the result of the first shot. Variable wind is a LOT harder. You said that you waited for the lulls; your results say that you did a good job of judging those. I find that the hardest is switching winds, when the wind backs and veers from either side, blowing more or less on a line from you to the target, but crosses back and forth, left and right. Switching winds still give me trouble. Spending some time at 200 yards with a .22 where you can reliably get switching winds has helped a lot, but I still have a long way to go.

This assumes that the wind you read is the wind that the bullet is going to encounter, which is very often NOT the case. I suspect, given the tight group , that there are terrain factors in play here that are biting you. If you are shooting over a valley, or even a smaller ravine, the wind in the depression may be stronger and different in direction than the wind at the firing point. Looking at foliage in the bottom of the valley and along the sides of the valley walls can help assess this. Your data show a 4 mph wind from 221 degrees. AT THE FIRING POINT. If the wind had been blowing from 140 degrees further downrange, that could negate some of the push at the firing point.

In real life, putting wind flags out is not a practical option, but when you are learning to read the wind at a particular location, flags or even some helium balloons tethered at the bottom of the valley on various length string can give you a good idea what the wind is doing, and help you understand the meaning of what the leaves and grass are telling you. Mirage seen in the spotting scope is another technique to assess wind away from the firing point, and one a lot of folks use, me included. I expect that a drone could also do the same thing, either by letting you see the drone drift, or by dropping a small streamer as we used to do in my skydiving days. Chimney smoke is good, too.

I hope that helps.

With regard to all who seek the Light,
Historian

 

[CZp-01]

That is a nice group at 500 yards; your rifle and ammo are doing a nice job, and so are you. How quickly did you deliver those five rounds?
I ask because it has some bearing on the discussion. You said that you waited for the lulls; if so, you did a good job of judging those.
Steady wind is easier to hold for, especially once you can see the result of the first shot. Variable wind is a LOT harder. You said that you waited for the lulls; your results say that you did a good job of judging those. I find that the hardest is switching winds, when the wind backs and veers from either side, blowing more or less on a line from you to the target, but crosses back and forth, left and right. Switching winds still give me trouble. Spending some time at 200 yards with a .22 where you can reliably get switching winds has helped a lot, but I still have a long way to go.

This assumes that the wind you read is the wind that the bullet is going to encounter, which is very often NOT the case. I suspect, given the tight group , that there are terrain factors in play here that are biting you. If you are shooting over a valley, or even a smaller ravine, the wind in the depression may be stronger and different in direction than the wind at the firing point. Looking at foliage in the bottom of the valley and along the sides of the valley walls can help assess this. Your data show a 4 mph wind from 221 degrees. AT THE FIRING POINT. If the wind had been blowing from 140 degrees further downrange, that could negate some of the push at the firing point.

In real life, putting wind flags out is not a practical option, but when you are learning to read the wind at a particular location, flags or even some helium balloons tethered at the bottom of the valley on various length string can give you a good idea what the wind is doing, and help you understand the meaning of what the leaves and grass are telling you. Mirage seen in the spotting scope is another technique to assess wind away from the firing point, and one a lot of folks use, me included. I expect that a drone could also do the same thing, either by letting you see the drone drift, or by dropping a small streamer as we used to do in my skydiving days. Chimney smoke is good, too.

I hope that helps.

With regard to all who seek the Light,
Historian

Thank you for your reply. As I'm new to most of this especially wind I learn as I go.
I don't have anybody in my area say a mentor so to speak with a wealth of knowledge on shooting, therefore I have to try and teach myself. The more I read or ask questions the more information I can gather to try.

Having a better spotting scope to see at distance helped me yesterday at a PRS match. I was able to make some decent wind calls and get some hits with it. Appreciate your input!

 

[OldHistorian]

Reading the wind is probably the hardest thing there is in shooting. I've been shooting off and on for about 45 years, and I still have lots to learn about the wind and how to deal with it. One thing I have done recently is to shoot .22 rimfire at 100 and 200 yards (and farther!). A .22LR at 100 yards drifts about the same as a .308 at 500; at 200 yards .22LR is about the same drift as .308 at a thousand.

I have learned a lot over the past couple of years shooting rimfire at 100 to 300 yards, and the good parts are:
-No time spent loading ammo for the LR sticks
-very little cost for ammo (I am shooting CCI Standard subsonic Target ammo)
-No wear on my LR barrel.

I have exactly the same scope as on my LR stick, so I get to practice everything I need to do on my LR stick. You may want to give that a go.

Another suggestion, which pains my Scottish soul a bit, is to pay for a good class in long range. While I was not impressed with the LR class I took last year, there are good instructors out there worth paying a few hundred bucks to teach you how to do it.

Lastly, there is value to shooting NRA highpower matches. In particular, learning how to really use a good highpower sling adds a lot of hitting ability to position shooting, especially kneeling and sitting, and to some extent to prone. It's not as good as bags, but there are times when you haven't time or a spot to use a bag. If you can afford it, consider a trip to Gunsite.

With regard to all who seek the Light,
Historian

 

[Long Range 338]

Just a couple of thoughts about this:

-How are you measuring wind? 0.8 mils at 500 yards seems like a lot but you weren't too far off so kudos in that respect. As mentioned above take the time to measure your high gusts and lulls in the wind to get your average. It has been my experience that I tend to overestimate the wind and find that if I "quarter" or "split" the difference on my wind call I'm usually more accurate with the wind.

-Dope is not just for bullet drop. There are a couple of different ways to find out what your guns "wind number" is. Both are based off actual shooting and documenting. There are some good threads here on the Hide as well as the Online Training to help with this. It looks like you are off to a good start using what the app has given you, now you just need to build on that experience.

 

[CZp-01]

Just a couple of thoughts about this:

-How are you measuring wind? 0.8 mils at 500 yards seems like a lot but you weren't too far off so kudos in that respect. As mentioned above take the time to measure your high gusts and lulls in the wind to get your average. It has been my experience that I tend to overestimate the wind and find that if I "quarter" or "split" the difference on my wind call I'm usually more accurate with the wind.

-Dope is not just for bullet drop. There are a couple of different ways to find out what your guns "wind number" is. Both are based off actual shooting and documenting. There are some good threads here on the Hide as well as the Online Training to help with this. It looks like you are off to a good start using what the app has given you, now you just need to build on that experience.

I measured the wind on that day based off what the app gave me. I had a chance to shoot a PRS match this past weekend and was able to make some wind call corrections after staying in my glass for the missed shot. As a lot of it is still a learning curve for me, I'm appreciative of your feedback. Thank you

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Keep in mind that wind velocity and direction vary tremendously over distance and terrain. One of the ranges where I shoot usually has wind flags (plastic ribbons on sticks) on every berm from 400 yards to 850. It is very rare to see all the flags move in the same direction, let alone the same angle. Furthermore, due to terrain and shooting line elevation, the path of a bullet aimed at the 1000-yard plate is well above the mid-range wind flags (which are affected by air swirling around the berms where they are located).

My point is, try to learn to see indicators all the way out. I've gotten reasonably decent at doping wind at the range where I shoot once or twice a week, even though its terrain leads to some tricky crosswind effects. But when I go to the 1000-yard range I shoot far less frequently (driving distance), I struggle past 600-700 yards because I don't shoot that distance very often.

 

[CZp-01]

Keep in mind that wind velocity and direction vary tremendously over distance and terrain. One of the ranges where I shoot usually has wind flags (plastic ribbons on sticks) on every berm from 400 yards to 850. It is very rare to see all the flags move in the same direction, let alone the same angle. Furthermore, due to terrain and shooting line elevation, the path of a bullet aimed at the 1000-yard plate is well above the mid-range wind flags (which are affected by air swirling around the berms where they are located).

My point is, try to learn to see indicators all the way out. I've gotten reasonably decent at doping wind at the range where I shoot once or twice a week, even though its terrain leads to some tricky crosswind effects. But when I go to the 1000-yard range I shoot far less frequently (driving distance), I struggle past 600-700 yards because I don't shoot that distance very often.

Thanks, that's nice distance to have available to you. I have a 500yd and a 300yd range here. Not sure I'm going to be rejoining the 500. The range is lacking in a lot of areas. Do you think 300yds is good enough distance to still be able to play with the wind?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thanks, that's nice distance to have available to you. I have a 500yd and a 300yd range here. Not sure I'm going to be rejoining the 500. The range is lacking in a lot of areas. Do you think 300yds is good enough distance to still be able to play with the wind?

Depends on how hard it's blowing and how often it blows that hard....

I can only offer my perspective based on what/why I shoot and how often.

In my opinion, buying a 6.5CM or similar for PRS-type shooting at 300 yards is like buying a Ferrari to drive five blocks to the grocery store. If you get into benchrest, then trying to make teeny-tiny groups at 300 yards is a reasonable endeavor - I see a guy at my range who takes 20 minutes to set up a benchrest rig with the monster rest and such, and I've never seen him shoot past 200 yards. It just doesn't float my boat at all at this point.

If all I had was 300 yards, given my interest in PRS-style competition, and knowing what I know now after chasing it for a couple of years, I would do this:

• I'd spend about all my time with a high-quality .22. Actually, even with 500+ yards available to me 20 minutes away, I still shoot more .22 in practice and competition than all my centerfires combined. If you want practice doping wind, a .22 at 250-300 yards will definitely give you all you want! I have a Vudoo topped with a Gen-2 Vortex Razor. Is it ridiculous to spend over $4000 for a .22 and optic? Not for me. That .22 is never going to need another barrel in my lifetime, it is capable of top-rung accuracy with match ammo it likes, and it shoots 5-cents-a-round CCI SV well enough to practice positional shooting on 1-inch swingers at 100 yards. If I could only have one rifle, this would be it.
• Centerfire: Get a good .223 and call it good. Barrel life is excellent and the wind becomes a real factor closer in. You can handload match-quality ammo for 30-40 cents a round (the price of bulk 55-grain factory ammo, whose accuracy totally, utterly sucks).
• I personally (again, based on my experience and interest) wouldn't bother with a high-end bolt gun in 6.5CM or similar at 300 yards unless I was chasing benchrest.
• I shoot a lot, and it's always with an end goal of participating in some form of competition. If your interests are more casual - for example, my son doesn't shoot very much but he has a lot of interest in vintage military firearms - 300 yards is plenty on which to have a lot of fun.

Hope this helps, but remember it's only my opinion based on my interests and experience. Be open to allowing your own to evolve.

 

[CZp-01]

Depends on how hard it's blowing and how often it blows that hard....

I can only offer my perspective based on what/why I shoot and how often.

In my opinion, buying a 6.5CM or similar for PRS-type shooting at 300 yards is like buying a Ferrari to drive five blocks to the grocery store. If you get into benchrest, then trying to make teeny-tiny groups at 300 yards is a reasonable endeavor - I see a guy at my range who takes 20 minutes to set up a benchrest rig with the monster rest and such, and I've never seen him shoot past 200 yards. It just doesn't float my boat at all at this point.

If all I had was 300 yards, given my interest in PRS-style competition, and knowing what I know now after chasing it for a couple of years, I would do this:

• I'd spend about all my time with a high-quality .22. Actually, even with 500+ yards available to me 20 minutes away, I still shoot more .22 in practice and competition than all my centerfires combined. If you want practice doping wind, a .22 at 250-300 yards will definitely give you all you want! I have a Vudoo topped with a Gen-2 Vortex Razor. Is it ridiculous to spend over $4000 for a .22 and optic? Not for me. That .22 is never going to need another barrel in my lifetime, it is capable of top-rung accuracy with match ammo it likes, and it shoots 5-cents-a-round CCI SV well enough to practice positional shooting on 1-inch swingers at 100 yards. If I could only have one rifle, this would be it.
• Centerfire: Get a good .223 and call it good. Barrel life is excellent and the wind becomes a real factor closer in. You can handload match-quality ammo for 30-40 cents a round (the price of bulk 55-grain factory ammo, whose accuracy totally, utterly sucks).
• I personally (again, based on my experience and interest) wouldn't bother with a high-end bolt gun in 6.5CM or similar at 300 yards unless I was chasing benchrest.
• I shoot a lot, and it's always with an end goal of participating in some form of competition. If your interests are more casual - for example, my son doesn't shoot very much but he has a lot of interest in vintage military firearms - 300 yards is plenty on which to have a lot of fun.

Hope this helps, but remember it's only my opinion based on my interests and experience. Be open to allowing your own to evolve.

Thank you!
I do shoot a lot I'm out almost every weekend putting rounds down range.
I do own a lil .22 RRPR with a Sightron 10-50x60 on it not the best scope for a PRS trainer. It's no Vudoo..lol also have a .223 trainer rifle Rem700 5r in a manners stock and a Gen 2 PST. Amazingly the .223 loves Hornady 55gr SP. I handload all my own ammo. I'll take your advice and work more with those rifles on shorter distances with wind.

I have ventured into PRS with a RPR in 6.5CM and recently dropped a Bergara B-14 action into a MPA chassis. I'm going to leave it like that and shoot the crap out of it to get some experience.

They may not be tier one rifles but it's what I have to work with and it gets me out shooting which is what I enjoy doing.
Thanks again!

 

[OldHistorian]

Keep in mind that wind velocity and direction vary tremendously over distance and terrain. One of the ranges where I shoot usually has wind flags (plastic ribbons on sticks) on every berm from 400 yards to 850. It is very rare to see all the flags move in the same direction, let alone the same angle. Furthermore, due to terrain and shooting line elevation, the path of a bullet aimed at the 1000-yard plate is well above the mid-range wind flags (which are affected by air swirling around the berms where they are located).

My point is, try to learn to see indicators all the way out. I've gotten reasonably decent at doping wind at the range where I shoot once or twice a week, even though its terrain leads to some tricky crosswind effects. But when I go to the 1000-yard range I shoot far less frequently (driving distance), I struggle past 600-700 yards because I don't shoot that distance very often.

This.

Learning to read the wind at a specific location is moderately challenging. Generalizing that experience to ANY location is harder; as stated, you have to figure the wind where the bullet is travelling, not where the indicators are, and you need to know how that changes as the wind does. The school solution is reading mirage at different points along the path of flight, as well as foliage, smoke, etc.

The .22 as a wind trainer helps, as it is much easier to find 200 yards than 1000. If you can shoot in the wind at 200 with a .22, you will shoot better at a thousand with a centerfire when the need arises.

With regard to all who seek the Light,
Historian

 

[Skunkworx]

Has your 4dof always had the dual number wind value? Is that an upgrade or glitched ap?

 

[CZp-01]

Has your 4dof always had the dual number wind value? Is that an upgrade or glitched ap?

I would say yes. I haven't paid for any upgrades. I've had the app for about a year or so. Does your app have it?

Here's the version I'm using.
version 2019.1029.235

 

[Skunkworx]

I would say yes. I haven't paid for any upgrades. I've had the app for about a year or so. Does your app have it?

Here's the version I'm using.
version 2019.1029.235

No, mine just had the one row of numbers. What’s your bullet, and velocity? I’m curious if I punch in that data If the output would be close to yours or different? My hud is attached

 

[Guns&WhiteWater]

I would say yes. I haven't paid for any upgrades. I've had the app for about a year or so. Does your app have it?

Here's the version I'm using.
version 2019.1029.235

I use the same app. It seems to work well with the ELD-M's out to 1100. I use the local pressure and set my elevation to 0. You can also change the drag factor up and down to true the dope. Winds from behind and in front that are at a slight angle are the trickiest for me. I'd much rather shoot in a direct crosswind so I can read the mirage better.

 

[CZp-01]

@Skunkworx 140 Eldm 2733 fps

 

[Skunkworx]

@Skunkworx 140 Eldm 2733 fps

I can’t quite duplicate your windage outputs but was sorta close at .73 Mils with a 14 mph wind at 221 degrees. I guess my next question would be how did you determine the wind was really at 221 degrees? Just updating the wind vector to 200 degrees cuts the windage in half. What’s your wind angle determination method just for reference?

 

[CZp-01]

I can’t quite duplicate your windage outputs but was sorta close at .73 Mils with a 14 mph wind at 221 degrees. I guess my next question would be how did you determine the wind was really at 221 degrees? Just updating the wind vector to 200 degrees cuts the windage in half. What’s your wind angle determination method just for reference?

I used a compass to figure out which way was north. I then used my local weather app to see which way the wind was blowing. I may not have a true exact angle of 221, you can say it was my best guess based off the information I was using.

All of this was completely experimental. I've never shot at 500 with any regularity nevermind with wind.

Your #'s are pretty darn close. There maybe some other inputs I have in the app that aren't getting you to where I'm at. Just a guess.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Stupid question but did you input your rifle/load information into the system?

 

[CZp-01]

Stupid question but did you input your rifle/load information into the system?

Yes, it's all in there.