HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

P

PEACEMAKER

Private
Minuteman
Jan 7, 2010
25
0
49
QLD, Australia
#1
I was going to run the 168gn 30cal A-MAX in my Rem 700XCR Tac as my target load as they were supposed to be there premo target pill. When working up a load I weighed 60 pills only to find that out of the 60, 23 came in at 168gns and the rest were between 167.6gns and 168.3gns. Now for a target pill this is not good. And it really shows up when you shoot long ranges so I contacted HORNADY in regards to this and there response was

"From: Doug Dxxxxr
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 5:05 PM
To: tech
Subject: RE: "Other" Contact from Jason

Jason, I'm sorry you are having trouble with our product. To be very
honest with you the bullets are well within our spec and I could not
guarantee that I could not replace them with another bullet that would
be closer in weight.
"

That is crap IMOP, I informed them in the first e-mail that I also weighed the burger VLD HUNTING 168gn pills and they came in at 167.9, all 50 that I weighed. So the 500+ SHIT hornady A-MAX that i have will be off loaded for a quality pill from a company that cares about quality. And the order of 20,000(168gn,178gn .30cal, 140gn 6.5cal, 250gn .338cal) pills that a group of 5 of us long range shooters here in OZ were just about to place will be caned.
 
#2
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

So you came to the conclusion that they are no good by weighing them. Have you loaded and tested any? The 168s and 178s shoot very well in a couple 308s I have. Also the 105 6MM is awesome in 243. Not to mention 75 AMAX in 223 and 22-250. I guess since you and the 5 other shooters won't be ordering AMAXes, there will be more for others......LOL.
 
#3
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

No i did load and shoot them and they shot OK but i batched them also so that each charge weight had the same pill weight or as close to it. My only problem is the fact that they are supposed to be there target pill and i don't want to have to weigh every pill in a box because a company can't get its quality control right. Why were the BERGERS all the same weight and also the SMK's i weighed the the day. When you think about it if you were shooting at a target say 800m and out of 10rds there is a weight variance of .7gns that could be the difference between a win or 3rd place. And there all yours! The best part is one of the 5 shooters(well respected) works in the bigest gun shop here in Australia and he was there when I weighed them, as a resuld won't be recomending them any more to people.
 
#6
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

SOLD just come and pick them up.....lol
laugh.gif
Nah i will just use them in the pump 7600 on goats and wild dogs.
 
#7
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Do this. Load up 5-10 of the lightest and 5-10 of the heaviest bullets in your weight range. Then go shoot them for groups at 600 yards or further, and report back. Then we might listen. I can't put into perspective how worthless this topic is.
 
#8
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

After weighing many 223 pills from both Sierra and Hornady, I can tell you that my Sierra blems have a closer tolerance to the advertised weight of the projectile than Hornady first runs do.

That said, were you able to document that the weight difference you were seeing on your scale in your reloading room had any relevance on the shooting range?
 
#14
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DRAM40A1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you came to the conclusion that they are no good by weighing them. Have you loaded and tested any? The 168s and 178s shoot very well in a couple 308s I have. Also the 105 6MM is awesome in 243. Not to mention 75 AMAX in 223 and 22-250. I guess since you and the 5 other shooters won't be ordering AMAXes, there will be more for others......LOL. </div></div>

Exactly. I need some 75 A-Max's for my .223. If anybody doesn't like their performance PM me and I'll tell you where to mail them.
smile.gif
 
#16
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

The AMAX is a fine bullet. Shoots great in everything I have put them in. That includes 4 department guns with TAP ammo and handloading them in 168 and 178 for an FN SPR and an AI. Been averaging 1.4" groups with them at 300. What exactly are you looking for. Particularly for the price difference (vs. Berger), I think they are hard to beat.

Just my .02
 
#18
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can't put into perspective how worthless this topic is. </div></div>

I have a sneaking suspicion that you just did.
 
#20
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Ya know.... I've never been anal enough to weigh my bullets or for that matter my brass either.

I guess when I start counting granules of powder it will give me something else to do.

I'm still in that "tacticool" mode I guess.
 
#21
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I am not sideing with any one on this one but I have found (from my own experiance at the range) that I have never had good results with any of hornadys "match" bullets in many calibers. I dont know why this is I know some who love them, but I just cant get them to shoot w/ sierra, Im starting to think it mental on my part. I have also noticed the hornady tend to show more copper fouling than others. Any one have any intelligent thoughts on this?
 
#22
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Amax bullets are the only bullets i sort thru.I use a comparator to check bullet diffrences in ojive.Hornady doesnt put out bullets like Lapua.
 
#23
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I'm just going to quote Lee Rasmussen verbatim:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There&#8217;s some physics behind why one doesn&#8217;t need to sort bullets by weight which backs up some comments in this thread.

Target shooters often weigh bullets and segregate them according to weight, because variations in bullet weight can cause a variation in muzzle velocity and bullet drop.

Well the good news is we can calculate the effect of variation of bullet weight to predict the change in muzzle velocity.

(CV/V) = .24 * (CW/W)

CV== change in velocity
V== velocity
CW== change in bullet weight
W== bullet weight

For an easy illustration let&#8217;s compare an 800 grain bullet with an 808 grain projectile going 2700 fps.

.24 x (8/800) x 2700 = 6.48 fps difference due to the weight difference!!</div></div>

If you don't know who Lee is, do some checking. More credibility than just about anyone you'll ever hear from on this subject.

I don't think your .6gr max spread is anything to cry over.
 
#25
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: froggy2229</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AMAX is a fine bullet. Shoots great in everything I have put them in. That includes 4 department guns with TAP ammo and handloading them in 168 and 178 for an FN SPR and an AI. Been averaging 1.4" groups with them at 300. What exactly are you looking for. Particularly for the price difference (vs. Berger), I think they are hard to beat.

Just my .02 </div></div>
Maybe i am just expecting to much? I was under the impression that if you want to achieve accuracy you first need consistency! Hell i might as well just weigh the powder at around 45.5gns don't matter if its 45gns or 46gns i guess. In fact why did i bother using lapua cases,Redding match bushing dies or even the Fed 210m's......must Just be a waist of time to produce the best ammo you can. I didn't spend over $2800 tuning my 700 just to shoot average ammo through it and as for the floggers that said weigh primers or shavings....... Thanks for that wise imput. Think i will just give the A-MAX a miss and run with the Bergers as they shoot 28mm at 400m and for my 2, 6.5x47's the lap 139's shoot like stink!
I do listen to intelligent input but some of the responses on here just show lack of interest to actually help others on here. I have taken on board that this variance in weight most likely will have no real effect and i understand that but i am just not happy with there product so fk them taking my cash else were!
 
#26
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Oh and before you say why bother wasting $$$$ on a 700xcr tac tricking it up....... coz i fkn can! I was given to me as a birthday prezy and i already have 2 stillers and a surgeon so i thought why the hell not!
 
#27
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I had a very similar experience with the Hornady 180 grain SST bullets for my 300 Win Mag. Accuracy was very poor compared to other bullets (Sierra and Nosler) and when I started weighing them they were all over the map between 168 and 192 grains. I contacted Hornady and got an equally lame answer. Now the only time I shoot Hornady bullets is to fire-form brass. The consumer has a long memory when it comes to quality and customer service and when they have a bad experience they don't generally go back. Maybe this explains why Hornady is giving away so many bullets with equipment purchases.
 
#28
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I've had no complaints whatsoever with the 178's and the 208's. They both shoot really well out of the sticks I've used them in. Some bbls shoot better with certain bullets. No two bbls are the same and .6 isn't enough to make a difference (everything else being equal) in most cases. Just shut up and shoot!! Sometimes its not just the bullets. Conditions can have a huge effect on accuracy. Everything else being equal, nobody can shoot the same in all conditions. Some do better than others (calling wind), yeah, but if the equipment is squared away and its all top shelf gear, its usually the driver's fault instead of the equipment.

Chad
 
#29
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flashhole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a very similar experience with the Hornady 180 grain SST bullets for my 300 Win Mag. Accuracy was very poor compared to other bullets (Sierra and Nosler) and when I started weighing them they were all over the map between 168 and 192 grains. I contacted Hornady and got an equally lame answer. Now the only time I shoot Hornady bullets is to fire-form brass. The consumer has a long memory when it comes to quality and customer service and when they have a bad experience they don't generally go back. Maybe this explains why Hornady is giving away so many bullets with equipment purchases. </div></div>

You had a box of 180's that ranged 24 grains and Hornady told you to pound sand?

I understand when they said "too bad" over .4gr of range, but it sounds to me like your bullets either got mixed up or your scale is broken.

I don't mean to sound offensive, but something doesn't smell right. Even junky military bullets from Turkey have tighter control over the weight than that. Something smells fishy to me.

My experience with the Amax's has been excellent.
 
#30
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PEACEMAKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was going to run the 168gn 30cal A-MAX in my Rem 700XCR Tac as my target load as they were supposed to be there premo target pill. When working up a load I weighed 60 pills only to find that out of the 60, 23 came in at 168gns and the rest were between 167.6gns and 168.3gns. Now for a target pill this is not good. And it really shows up when you shoot long ranges so I contacted HORNADY in regards to this and there response was

"From: Doug Dxxxxr
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 5:05 PM
To: tech
Subject: RE: "Other" Contact from Jason

Jason, I'm sorry you are having trouble with our product. To be very
honest with you the bullets are well within our spec and I could not
guarantee that I could not replace them with another bullet that would
be closer in weight.
"

That is crap IMOP, I informed them in the first e-mail that I also weighed the burger VLD HUNTING 168gn pills and they came in at 167.9, all 50 that I weighed. So the 500+ SHIT hornady A-MAX that i have will be off loaded for a quality pill from a company that cares about quality. And the order of 20,000(168gn,178gn .30cal, 140gn 6.5cal, 250gn .338cal) pills that a group of 5 of us long range shooters here in OZ were just about to place will be caned. </div></div>

I'll bet after you shoot long enough, you'll rethink your post. I don't weigh anything other than the powder, as case prep, chamber, crown and barrel seem to make a much larger difference on my side of the planet.
 
#31
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Peacemaker,

Youve made it apparent that we have ruffled your feathers a little bit but keep in mind this isnt benchrestcentral. We know that the Berger is a high quality well produced projectile...hince the cost. The amax is about half the cost producing the same accuracy in some of our rifles including mine and makes for a great huntin round also. Part of being a good marksmen is having the confidence in all of your equipment so if loading the Berger over amax helps you with your mentality roll with it. If you plan on sticking around here do yourself a big favor; 1- Fill out your Fn profile 2-Respect the guys that have been on here for a long time (even if they are very opinionated at times)3-If your goin to bash a company on a public forum you better have the gonads to back it up.

Oh and please send all amaxes to me. Thanks in advance.
 
#33
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PEACEMAKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i already have 2 stillers and a surgeon so i thought why the hell not! </div></div>

There is absolutely no chance that this is true.


zero chance, none at all...
 
#35
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I am unfamiliar with the type of rifle competions shot in Australia, and am only somewhat familiar with the kinds of matches available in the U.S. so please excuse my ignorance when I ask in reference to your statement above:

"When you think about it if you were shooting at a target say 800m and out of 10rds there is a weight variance of .7gns that could be the difference between a win or 3rd place."

What is the difference in prize money between first and third?
 
#36
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I shoot the A-Max 168 grain with H4895 and get half MOA groups all day long. I have shot the SMK and my gun likes A-Max more.
I can't understand all the whining when he hasn't even tried shooting them yet. I sure would hate to see how many loads he will waste when he blames the A-Max for his ill shooting.
 
#37
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PEACEMAKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and before you say why bother wasting $$$$ on a 700xcr tac tricking it up....... coz i fkn can! I was given to me as a birthday prezy and i already have 2 stillers and a surgeon so i thought why the hell not! </div></div>
You haven't even shot them and are dogging them. I don't get it. I truely don't understand. A few tenths of a grain difference in bullet weight will not effect your accuracy and/or long range trajectory. Shoot the freakin' bullets, and then report back.
 
#38
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

I don't think this thread is going the way the OP originally intended?

Then there's the law of 'diminishing returns'.

I think every box of bullets will have some variation.

One of the regulars here, said something like this, when weight sorting brands of target bullets:

'Sierras were a 5-6 pile brand, Lapua was a 2-3 pile brand and Bergers were a 1-2 pile brand.'

Bergers are $40+ a box, Scenars are $35-$40 a box and SMKs are $25-$35 a box, so the freakin' comsumer wins.

Chris
 
#39
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Hornady's A-max bullets have been excellent in my rifles.
The SST's were not.
Those seem like very reasonable bullet weight variations to me.

You'll be way past supersonic range before those minor weight variations would even become perceptible.

Are you familiar with sig figs?
This applies directly to your shooting equation.
 
#40
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

To the OP,

I kind of thought the same thing when I first started shooting long distance. I figured that EVERYTHING had to be just right & uniform in order to hold consistant groups. One day I also weighed all my bullets from Hornady box of 168 AMAX's and found only about 30 to 40 that were 168 & the rest were either a tad low or high in weight.....but the lowest was 167 & the heaviest was 169.

So I loaded five up ranging from 167 to 169 under 44 grains of Varget with WLR primers. None of the bullets weighed the same.....so I shoot them at 500 yards, and the group measured under 3 inches. Shit! I guess that answered my question!! That was good enough for me!!
 
#43
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Wow, this thread was entertaining.

Somebody got a little sand in their vagina, perhaps he needs to go take a shower, cool off a bit, and come back when his ego takes a nap. The OP sounds like a 16y.o. kid that's been absorbing everything from the interweb, and feels that everything he's learned is crucial to his success. I weighed bullets for some testing, no difference, waste of time for me.

Most of us on this site aren't benchresters, there's a forum just for those guys, those guys that feel 1/2moa is for "lewsers" (i'm joking around.....a bit). Here on the tactical side, or "practical shooting" side we aren't as critical about shooting tiny little groups. We just need to be able to hit a fairly decent sized target at any range from some really screwy positions. Of course quite often we like to post our tiny bug hole benchrest type groups for bragging purposes.

To the OP, the difference between 1st and 3rd at your matches isn't the .6gr spread between your bullets, it's the ability of the winner to read the wind better than the others. Bugholes at 100 and 200 won't yield great groups at 600-1000 or further if you can't read the wind worth a darn. Get out and shoot, learn from doing, not only from only reading.

Branden
 
#44
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm gonna start calling all my boolits, pills. </div></div>

I call my 208's "wingless cruise missiles". Well at 1.520" long they sure look like one.

Branden
 
#45
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP,

I kind of thought the same thing when I first started shooting long distance. I figured that EVERYTHING had to be just right & uniform in order to hold consistant groups. One day I also weighed all my bullets from Hornady box of 168 AMAX's and found only about 30 to 40 that were 168 & the rest were either a tad low or high in weight.....but the lowest was 167 & the heaviest was 169.

So I loaded five up ranging from 167 to 169 under 44 grains of Varget with WLR primers. None of the bullets weighed the same.....so I shoot them at 500 yards, and the group measured under 3 inches. Shit! I guess that answered my question!! That was good enough for me!! </div></div>I know this is not a benchrest sight and i am not shooting from a bench rest but thanks for your responses any way, the above post is the kind of feed back i was looking for. Not stupid comments that most have posted. If you are going to comment please read all post above first (for the ones that said i haven't shot them) Don't matter now any way i picked up 2000 Bergers today so i will use them as the remo likes them better regardless.
 
#46
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

Hey Peacemaker where bouts in oz are you?

If your in VIC let me know if you ever head up to the ranges wouldn't mind getting to know some local 308 handloaders.

In regards to the Bergers, correct me if im mistaken, but the VLD's require the projectile to either touch the lands or be a bee's penis away from it... Knowing what my remington is like im guessing your going to have to seat those bad boys pretty far forward.

Let me know how they go.

Pay much for the Bergers? Tried Lapua 155 scenars?
 
#47
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PEACEMAKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP,

I kind of thought the same thing when I first started shooting long distance. I figured that EVERYTHING had to be just right & uniform in order to hold consistant groups. One day I also weighed all my bullets from Hornady box of 168 AMAX's and found only about 30 to 40 that were 168 & the rest were either a tad low or high in weight.....but the lowest was 167 & the heaviest was 169.

So I loaded five up ranging from 167 to 169 under 44 grains of Varget with WLR primers. None of the bullets weighed the same.....so I shoot them at 500 yards, and the group measured under 3 inches. Shit! I guess that answered my question!! That was good enough for me!! </div></div>I know this is not a benchrest sight and i am not shooting from a bench rest but thanks for your responses any way, the above post is the kind of feed back i was looking for. Not stupid comments that most have posted. If you are going to comment please read all post above first (for the ones that said i haven't shot them) Don't matter now any way i picked up 2000 Bergers today so i will use them as <span style="font-weight: bold">the remo likes them better regardless.</span> </div></div>

How would you know. You never really shot them. And I don't me five or ten times. I'm talkng full load development with multipal powders. Untile then, shoot your bergers but don't badmouth a boolit cus you don't know what your doing with them.
 
#48
Re: HORNADY A-MAX , NOT HAPPY

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PEACEMAKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the OP,

I kind of thought the same thing when I first started shooting long distance. I figured that EVERYTHING had to be just right & uniform in order to hold consistant groups. One day I also weighed all my bullets from Hornady box of 168 AMAX's and found only about 30 to 40 that were 168 & the rest were either a tad low or high in weight.....but the lowest was 167 & the heaviest was 169.

So I loaded five up ranging from 167 to 169 under 44 grains of Varget with WLR primers. None of the bullets weighed the same.....so I shoot them at 500 yards, and the group measured under 3 inches. Shit! I guess that answered my question!! That was good enough for me!! </div></div>I know this is not a benchrest sight and i am not shooting from a bench rest but thanks for your responses any way, the above post is the kind of feed back i was looking for. Not stupid comments that most have posted. If you are going to comment please read all post above first (for the ones that said i haven't shot them) Don't matter now any way i picked up 2000 Bergers today so i will use them as <span style="font-weight: bold">the remo likes them better regardless.</span> </div></div>

How would you know. You never really shot them. And I don't me five or ten times. I'm talkng full load development with multipal powders. Untile then, shoot your bergers but don't badmouth a boolit cus you don't know what your doing with them. </div></div>no your right.... i only ended up loading 100 of them using ADI ar2206h & ar2208 and as i said they shot OK but i haven't had the chance to shoot them past 500m but most of you guys are missing the point i was trying to make as far as quality control with hornady v berger or sierra. I know there is a difference in price between the pills( $57v$65 AUD)but i was just surprised with there response as i didn't ask for replacements just asked if i got a bad batch or was this the norm. So now that all the fantastic people on here have advised me that they will still shoot fine and not to worry about it in there own special little ways, i thank you for educating me.
 
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