than I can get without pressure signs and beyond what the reloading manuals state is obtainable at safe pressures? I'll give examples. Winchester loads 25WSSM 110 gr. to 3000 fps. I can't get beyond 2850. Double Tap loads 338 Lapua 300gr. SBTM to 2800 fps., and I can't get beyond 2700. Are they using proprietary powders, mixing powders, or what the heck is the deal?
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How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
- Thread starter Ultrastealth
- Start date
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are they using proprietary powders, mixing powders, or what the heck is the deal?
</div></div>
Yep
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are they using proprietary powders, mixing powders, or what the heck is the deal?
</div></div>
Yep
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
You also need to factor in environmental conditions during the test. A loading that delivers 3000 fps at 4000 ft above sea level from a 26" barrel (for example) will deliver substantially less at sea level from a 18" barrel.
You also need to factor in environmental conditions during the test. A loading that delivers 3000 fps at 4000 ft above sea level from a 26" barrel (for example) will deliver substantially less at sea level from a 18" barrel.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
As I’m sure you already know it is not the peak pressure that determines velocity but the entire area under the pressure curve. Knowing that my first bet would be for a proprietarily hybrid powder of some kind to achieve the velocities they are getting.
Another thing to remember is that the brass is the weakest link in every completed round, I would not put it past the manufactures to change the metallurgy of the brass or tweak the construction a little to gain an advantage over their competitors.
As I’m sure you already know it is not the peak pressure that determines velocity but the entire area under the pressure curve. Knowing that my first bet would be for a proprietarily hybrid powder of some kind to achieve the velocities they are getting.
Another thing to remember is that the brass is the weakest link in every completed round, I would not put it past the manufactures to change the metallurgy of the brass or tweak the construction a little to gain an advantage over their competitors.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
Hornady superformance is best I've seen although I have not really looking.
Hornady superformance is best I've seen although I have not really looking.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast.
Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast.</div></div>
I chronyd some 140 amaxs out of a 6.5 creedmor. Box said 2700 fps. I got 2812. Take onto consideration it's a 27" bartlein though.
Also in .308 the the 168 amax out of a 22" bartlein I was getting 2720. Or it may have been the 178 Can't remember but I know it was faster than advertised.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast.</div></div>
I chronyd some 140 amaxs out of a 6.5 creedmor. Box said 2700 fps. I got 2812. Take onto consideration it's a 27" bartlein though.
Also in .308 the the 168 amax out of a 22" bartlein I was getting 2720. Or it may have been the 178 Can't remember but I know it was faster than advertised.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
The barrels bore and groove size, finish length, chamber specs. etc...all can effect velocity as well.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
The barrels bore and groove size, finish length, chamber specs. etc...all can effect velocity as well.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast. </div></div>
These are chronographed velocities that match the stated velocities of the ammo manufacturers. It must be hybrid powders like Superformance uses. I'd really much rather reload for my Lapua than pay $90 a box to Doubletap.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are the speeds you quote for factory ammo what they advertize or have you actually chrono'ed it at those speeds? I've never found actual factory velocity to be much better than my reloads, if as fast. </div></div>
These are chronographed velocities that match the stated velocities of the ammo manufacturers. It must be hybrid powders like Superformance uses. I'd really much rather reload for my Lapua than pay $90 a box to Doubletap.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
Is there a rule of thumb that manufactures us like 26" barrel at 3000 ft above sea level. I know archery has IBO Which is 29" draw length 350 grain shaft? Im a newbie, so im kinda dumb still!
Is there a rule of thumb that manufactures us like 26" barrel at 3000 ft above sea level. I know archery has IBO Which is 29" draw length 350 grain shaft? Im a newbie, so im kinda dumb still!
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
I have a custom .308 running a 22 inch bartlein gain twist barrel. It spits FGMM 168's out at 2800fps, according to my 800 yard dope. Really suprised me.
I have a custom .308 running a 22 inch bartlein gain twist barrel. It spits FGMM 168's out at 2800fps, according to my 800 yard dope. Really suprised me.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie
One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
Just wanted to add, my 22" Bartlien runs fast for a given amount of powder. It's the smoothest lapped barrel I've ever cleaned.
Just wanted to add, my 22" Bartlien runs fast for a given amount of powder. It's the smoothest lapped barrel I've ever cleaned.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads.
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultrastealth</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads. </div></div>
We had a meeting with the Hodgdon rep when they first announced the blended powders (Superformance and Leverevolution). In a nutshell this was the info:
- these are not the only blended powders they are using but were the 2 powder combos that would provide load data that fit their criteria for the greatest number of loads.
- In order for them to publish load data it had to show a significant (If I remember correctly it was something like 20% but that seems high) increase in velocity over other published data without increasing the pressure.
- these two blends have application for a number of calibers that Hodgdon is not publishing date for but they did not provide the significant velocity increase they required for the non-published loads. So with that they very may well work in quite a few calibers but may not give you a significant advantage over other powders.
Hope this helps to clarify. Blended powders are actually used in quite a few calibers, thus making it hard for the handloader to safely duplicate the velocities attained.
Charlie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultrastealth</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads. </div></div>
We had a meeting with the Hodgdon rep when they first announced the blended powders (Superformance and Leverevolution). In a nutshell this was the info:
- these are not the only blended powders they are using but were the 2 powder combos that would provide load data that fit their criteria for the greatest number of loads.
- In order for them to publish load data it had to show a significant (If I remember correctly it was something like 20% but that seems high) increase in velocity over other published data without increasing the pressure.
- these two blends have application for a number of calibers that Hodgdon is not publishing date for but they did not provide the significant velocity increase they required for the non-published loads. So with that they very may well work in quite a few calibers but may not give you a significant advantage over other powders.
Hope this helps to clarify. Blended powders are actually used in quite a few calibers, thus making it hard for the handloader to safely duplicate the velocities attained.
Charlie
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
Hornady uses more than one blend in the Superformance line. The Superformance powder offered by Hodgdon is only one of those blends. This is just a warning to someone who buys Superformance powder and pulls a Superformance bullet to weight the charge. It might not be the same blend. Use only the listed loads by Hodgdon for their Superfomance blend available to the public.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a custom .308 running a 22 inch bartlein gain twist barrel. It spits FGMM 168's out at 2800fps, according to my 800 yard dope. Really suprised me.</div></div>
Have you run it over a chrono? Also have you tested your scope to make sure it is tracking correctly?
Hornady uses more than one blend in the Superformance line. The Superformance powder offered by Hodgdon is only one of those blends. This is just a warning to someone who buys Superformance powder and pulls a Superformance bullet to weight the charge. It might not be the same blend. Use only the listed loads by Hodgdon for their Superfomance blend available to the public.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a custom .308 running a 22 inch bartlein gain twist barrel. It spits FGMM 168's out at 2800fps, according to my 800 yard dope. Really suprised me.</div></div>
Have you run it over a chrono? Also have you tested your scope to make sure it is tracking correctly?
Re: How are manufacturers loading to higher velocities
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultrastealth</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads. </div></div>
We had a meeting with the Hodgdon rep when they first announced the blended powders (Superformance and Leverevolution). In a nutshell this was the info:
- these are not the only blended powders they are using but were the 2 powder combos that would provide load data that fit their criteria for the greatest number of loads.
- In order for them to publish load data it had to show a significant (If I remember correctly it was something like 20% but that seems high) increase in velocity over other published data without increasing the pressure.
- these two blends have application for a number of calibers that Hodgdon is not publishing date for but they did not provide the significant velocity increase they required for the non-published loads. So with that they very may well work in quite a few calibers but may not give you a significant advantage over other powders.
Hope this helps to clarify. Blended powders are actually used in quite a few calibers, thus making it hard for the handloader to safely duplicate the velocities attained.
Charlie
</div></div>
I have tried Superformance in my 25WSSM, and it can't come close to the Winchester factory loads in chronographed velocities. The 25WSSM is one of the calibers that Superformance is supposed to really shine in too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultrastealth</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CharlieTN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is happening with factory loads, such as Hornady's Superformance line, is that they are using blended powders. Basically a mix of 2 or more powders that gives them higher velocities without gaining much in the way of pressure.
Very difficult for handloaders to duplicated. Hodgdon does offer 2 of the blended powders but data is somewhat scarce.
Charlie </div></div>
This is what I was thinking, and its too dangerous to mess with. I wish Hodgdon and some of the other companies would start giving data for blended loads. </div></div>
We had a meeting with the Hodgdon rep when they first announced the blended powders (Superformance and Leverevolution). In a nutshell this was the info:
- these are not the only blended powders they are using but were the 2 powder combos that would provide load data that fit their criteria for the greatest number of loads.
- In order for them to publish load data it had to show a significant (If I remember correctly it was something like 20% but that seems high) increase in velocity over other published data without increasing the pressure.
- these two blends have application for a number of calibers that Hodgdon is not publishing date for but they did not provide the significant velocity increase they required for the non-published loads. So with that they very may well work in quite a few calibers but may not give you a significant advantage over other powders.
Hope this helps to clarify. Blended powders are actually used in quite a few calibers, thus making it hard for the handloader to safely duplicate the velocities attained.
Charlie
</div></div>
I have tried Superformance in my 25WSSM, and it can't come close to the Winchester factory loads in chronographed velocities. The 25WSSM is one of the calibers that Superformance is supposed to really shine in too.
