I have noticed a trend or a fact that most tactical shooter only use scopes with usually no more than 15 power? I dont get to play with my tactical gun like i would like to( no tactical matches in my neighborhood) so i have to go by what i read. Most new scopes intended for tactical shooting are around 12-15 power and under. Whats the main reason for this? I would think more the better, but then again, i just dont know! Just looking to learn something here. Thanks Lee
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Rifle Scopes How come lower power scopes fortactical purposes?
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purposes?
good question and have wondered that myself for awhile...
i could be wrong but i heard from different people it has something to do with the field of vision / creating a universal baseline for data (rangefinding and such), 10 power for instance seems to be very popular. i was told it also takes into account how much variable power and optic could go through before the quality of the image start to degrade.
still don't believe any of it...
good question and have wondered that myself for awhile...
i could be wrong but i heard from different people it has something to do with the field of vision / creating a universal baseline for data (rangefinding and such), 10 power for instance seems to be very popular. i was told it also takes into account how much variable power and optic could go through before the quality of the image start to degrade.
still don't believe any of it...
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purposes?
I usually have to dial down to 12 - 14 power at the shoots i've gone to because mirage from noon sun and or barrel heat starts taking effect. The other 1/4 matches the weather is cool so i can use the full NF power. And at 10x parelax isn't as great of a factor.
my 2cents.
I usually have to dial down to 12 - 14 power at the shoots i've gone to because mirage from noon sun and or barrel heat starts taking effect. The other 1/4 matches the weather is cool so i can use the full NF power. And at 10x parelax isn't as great of a factor.
my 2cents.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
Moving targets, multiple targets, etc. are PIA with high power scopes. Fast target aquisition is difficult as well. Shooting 2 MOA or bigger targets really doesn't require alot of magnification.
Moving targets, multiple targets, etc. are PIA with high power scopes. Fast target aquisition is difficult as well. Shooting 2 MOA or bigger targets really doesn't require alot of magnification.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
There are a couple different reasons I can think of off hand. One reason that has already been stated is to cut down the effects of mirage. Another major reason is ffp is all the rage lately in tactical scopes. Too much power increases the size and thickness of the reticle to where it covers your aiming point too much and makes ranging more difficult. The other thing that comes to mind is in general, lower power scopes have more travel in the erector system.
There are a couple different reasons I can think of off hand. One reason that has already been stated is to cut down the effects of mirage. Another major reason is ffp is all the rage lately in tactical scopes. Too much power increases the size and thickness of the reticle to where it covers your aiming point too much and makes ranging more difficult. The other thing that comes to mind is in general, lower power scopes have more travel in the erector system.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
There are diminishing returns with respect to increasing magnification. As magnification increases:
field of view decreases
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases
mirage becomes more evident
eye relief becomes more critical
<span style="font-style: italic">Depending upon it's subtensions,</span> a FFP reticle could <span style="text-decoration: line-through">begin to</span> obscure a small target, <span style="font-style: italic">regardless of distance</span>
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability
etc, etc...
Not to mention again the fact that tactical shooters are usually trying to hit (dare I say) 'man sized' targets from often improvised shooting positions. In contrast to punching bugholes in paper or colony varmint shooting, the 'extra' magnification above the stated 15X max. magnification just ain't necessary...
There are diminishing returns with respect to increasing magnification. As magnification increases:
field of view decreases
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases
mirage becomes more evident
eye relief becomes more critical
<span style="font-style: italic">Depending upon it's subtensions,</span> a FFP reticle could <span style="text-decoration: line-through">begin to</span> obscure a small target, <span style="font-style: italic">regardless of distance</span>
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability
etc, etc...
Not to mention again the fact that tactical shooters are usually trying to hit (dare I say) 'man sized' targets from often improvised shooting positions. In contrast to punching bugholes in paper or colony varmint shooting, the 'extra' magnification above the stated 15X max. magnification just ain't necessary...
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
as knockemdown stated the field of view is better with lower power scopes because the shooter can see more of whats around the target. the shooter doesn't want to be "dialed" in on his target only to be picked off by something he couldn't see.
as knockemdown stated the field of view is better with lower power scopes because the shooter can see more of whats around the target. the shooter doesn't want to be "dialed" in on his target only to be picked off by something he couldn't see.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
i like to be able to shoot at high magnifcations, but my "hit" score(timed) are allot better w/ my 4 power acog than my 4.5x14 mk4, my shot placement is much better w/ the mk 4 but it takes longer to find the target. (no i am not that finacially well off, but my dad's toys are fun to shoot)
try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
i like to be able to shoot at high magnifcations, but my "hit" score(timed) are allot better w/ my 4 power acog than my 4.5x14 mk4, my shot placement is much better w/ the mk 4 but it takes longer to find the target. (no i am not that finacially well off, but my dad's toys are fun to shoot)
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
depends on target size, shooting 8 inch pd requires different equipment, but your question is directed towards tactical. around 10x works well for the A zone in an IPSC target. Still useful at the extreme ranges as well as useable close. Lower powers allow one to see the strikes (if a miss) for correction and if the course of fire requires going prone a lower power allows one to still see the strike, and in some cases where the shooting position is cramped because of course design just getting a shot or other reasons your set up isn't ideal.
depends on target size, shooting 8 inch pd requires different equipment, but your question is directed towards tactical. around 10x works well for the A zone in an IPSC target. Still useful at the extreme ranges as well as useable close. Lower powers allow one to see the strikes (if a miss) for correction and if the course of fire requires going prone a lower power allows one to still see the strike, and in some cases where the shooting position is cramped because of course design just getting a shot or other reasons your set up isn't ideal.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
For timed events and movers it's easier to locate the target with lower magnification.
For me 3-17x is a great range.
For timed events and movers it's easier to locate the target with lower magnification.
For me 3-17x is a great range.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
On the other hand in a corrections environment a high mag variable is desirable because of the need for target id ( bad guys switching clothing etc. with good guys). We have been getting it done with 3.5-10x, but are looking for an upper end of 15x at least and preferably 17 or 20.
I was just using a 6.5-20x at training and while shooting movers at 200 and 300 kept it on 20 to see the difference in time. While it is undeniable that it does take more time it wasn't a huge amount, and I had the option of dialing down. I think it has been discussed here before that with a higher power variable you can always dial down.
On the other hand in a corrections environment a high mag variable is desirable because of the need for target id ( bad guys switching clothing etc. with good guys). We have been getting it done with 3.5-10x, but are looking for an upper end of 15x at least and preferably 17 or 20.
I was just using a 6.5-20x at training and while shooting movers at 200 and 300 kept it on 20 to see the difference in time. While it is undeniable that it does take more time it wasn't a huge amount, and I had the option of dialing down. I think it has been discussed here before that with a higher power variable you can always dial down.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
It the "real world" you are correct. Target ID is an absolute requirement. The upper end of my SN-3 is great for seeing if that's a cell phone or a gun. At the ranges we work at there is even a high probability that I can ID if it's a real gun, or a BB gun.
I thought the OP's question was more for tactical competitions.
When I deploy I usually dial my magnification up so that my field of view extends over possible openings that the target may appear in. That way if I am on the glass I have a higher probability to see the target if he/she appears in a different opening from the one that may have my attention at that point.
Sometimes we are close enough that even at 3.2x I can only glass an opening or two. This is why "both eyes open" is a necessity.
It the "real world" you are correct. Target ID is an absolute requirement. The upper end of my SN-3 is great for seeing if that's a cell phone or a gun. At the ranges we work at there is even a high probability that I can ID if it's a real gun, or a BB gun.
I thought the OP's question was more for tactical competitions.
When I deploy I usually dial my magnification up so that my field of view extends over possible openings that the target may appear in. That way if I am on the glass I have a higher probability to see the target if he/she appears in a different opening from the one that may have my attention at that point.
Sometimes we are close enough that even at 3.2x I can only glass an opening or two. This is why "both eyes open" is a necessity.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
All great info. I shoot a 6-20, but most of the time I have it turned down to more like 10 or 12, one of the main reasons is to spot my own hits/misses. Which can be hard on full power.
All great info. I shoot a 6-20, but most of the time I have it turned down to more like 10 or 12, one of the main reasons is to spot my own hits/misses. Which can be hard on full power.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
I personally prefer to use variable power scopes on my tactical rigs with magnification between 20 and 25, but I do most of the shooting on the lowest magnification. I have found that once I have trained myself to shoot this way, I don't generally need the higher magnificantion to make successful hits. I just like having the higher magnification so that if I do want to see my target a little better, I can. I have used the adage that about 1x for each 100 yds should be ample, and I have found that do be more or less true.
I personally prefer to use variable power scopes on my tactical rigs with magnification between 20 and 25, but I do most of the shooting on the lowest magnification. I have found that once I have trained myself to shoot this way, I don't generally need the higher magnificantion to make successful hits. I just like having the higher magnification so that if I do want to see my target a little better, I can. I have used the adage that about 1x for each 100 yds should be ample, and I have found that do be more or less true.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
Lower powered scopes also have a smaller signature and are typically lighter. My 3-12 PMII is more than adequate enough to competitively shoot high scores in long range multi-positional tactical comps without the added bulk sitting on top of the rifle.
Lower powered scopes also have a smaller signature and are typically lighter. My 3-12 PMII is more than adequate enough to competitively shoot high scores in long range multi-positional tactical comps without the added bulk sitting on top of the rifle.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OKbow87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a couple different reasons I can think of off hand. One reason that has already been stated is to cut down the effects of mirage. Another major reason is ffp is all the rage lately in tactical scopes. Too much power increases the size and thickness of the reticle to where it covers your aiming point too much and makes ranging more difficult. The other thing that comes to mind is in general, lower power scopes have more travel in the erector system. </div></div>
While the reticle becomes bigger at higher magnification, so does the target for a FFP scope. The amount that the reticle covers the aiming point has nothing to do with the magnification; it is inherent in the design of the reticle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OKbow87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a couple different reasons I can think of off hand. One reason that has already been stated is to cut down the effects of mirage. Another major reason is ffp is all the rage lately in tactical scopes. Too much power increases the size and thickness of the reticle to where it covers your aiming point too much and makes ranging more difficult. The other thing that comes to mind is in general, lower power scopes have more travel in the erector system. </div></div>
While the reticle becomes bigger at higher magnification, so does the target for a FFP scope. The amount that the reticle covers the aiming point has nothing to do with the magnification; it is inherent in the design of the reticle.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
likely lighter weight.
more forgiving eye relief increases shooter versatility.
Good form more than compensates for (lack of) magnification.
likely lighter weight.
more forgiving eye relief increases shooter versatility.
Good form more than compensates for (lack of) magnification.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
i like high mag variables (6-24) scopes for observation, identification, and confirmation (whew that's alot of "tions") when shooting longer ranges at paper or hunting. but for hunting or shooting 100yard or less, they become more of an encumberance than anything.
did we get a diffinitive answer to the original question, or is the concensus:
field of view decreases
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases
mirage becomes more evident
eye relief becomes more critical
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability
etc, etc...
and quick target acquistion?
i like high mag variables (6-24) scopes for observation, identification, and confirmation (whew that's alot of "tions") when shooting longer ranges at paper or hunting. but for hunting or shooting 100yard or less, they become more of an encumberance than anything.
did we get a diffinitive answer to the original question, or is the concensus:
field of view decreases
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases
mirage becomes more evident
eye relief becomes more critical
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability
etc, etc...
and quick target acquistion?
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
Top,
Consensus and a given: That higher the scope power, then....
field of view decreases = YES
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases = YES
mirage becomes more evident = YES
eye relief becomes more critical = YES
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target = NO, the reticle covers the same amount of target at all powers in an FFP scope. If the reticle is too big @ 3, 4 or 5 power, it will also be to big @ 10, 12, 14, 16, or whatever power. Or contra-wise, too small...
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability = YES, and more power means a bigger scope to compensate for the exit pupil effects.
Also adjustment range (W&E) is usually smaller as top power increases. This can be compensated somewhat by makers adopting 34, 35, and 40mm scope tubes, in lieu of 30mm main tubes.
Also, a bit harder (meaning longer trigger times) to pick up a moving target at closer ranges
On the plus side however, more x Power means the ability to differentiate GG's (good guy's) from BG's (bad guy's), which could be critical in real-life situations.
Bob
Top,
Consensus and a given: That higher the scope power, then....
field of view decreases = YES
perceived 'wobble' of sight picture increases = YES
mirage becomes more evident = YES
eye relief becomes more critical = YES
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target = NO, the reticle covers the same amount of target at all powers in an FFP scope. If the reticle is too big @ 3, 4 or 5 power, it will also be to big @ 10, 12, 14, 16, or whatever power. Or contra-wise, too small...
exit pupil decreases which could affect light gathering ability = YES, and more power means a bigger scope to compensate for the exit pupil effects.
Also adjustment range (W&E) is usually smaller as top power increases. This can be compensated somewhat by makers adopting 34, 35, and 40mm scope tubes, in lieu of 30mm main tubes.
Also, a bit harder (meaning longer trigger times) to pick up a moving target at closer ranges
On the plus side however, more x Power means the ability to differentiate GG's (good guy's) from BG's (bad guy's), which could be critical in real-life situations.
Bob
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target = NO, the reticle covers the same amount of target at all powers in an FFP scope. If the reticle is too big @ 3, 4 or 5 power, it will also be to big @ 10, 12, 14, 16, or whatever power. Or contra-wise, too small...
</div></div>
Thanks for catching that. Bad wording on my part, but that was what I was attempting to explain...
I'll edit my post for clarification...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
a FFP reticle could begin to obscure a small target = NO, the reticle covers the same amount of target at all powers in an FFP scope. If the reticle is too big @ 3, 4 or 5 power, it will also be to big @ 10, 12, 14, 16, or whatever power. Or contra-wise, too small...
</div></div>
Thanks for catching that. Bad wording on my part, but that was what I was attempting to explain...
I'll edit my post for clarification...
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
Has anyone mentioned Field Of View?
In any life/death situation, (IE not comps or gaming), you better have a wide field of view to be sure of everything that's happening.
Maybe a lot of guys use 4.5-14x Leupold because they have 100moa of turret adj?
I used to own a mk4 16x and sold it because the FOV was too restricted.
I would rate FOV as more critical than perfect image. Wonder which Premium scope has the widest FOV at over 20x?
Has anyone mentioned Field Of View?
In any life/death situation, (IE not comps or gaming), you better have a wide field of view to be sure of everything that's happening.
Maybe a lot of guys use 4.5-14x Leupold because they have 100moa of turret adj?
I used to own a mk4 16x and sold it because the FOV was too restricted.
I would rate FOV as more critical than perfect image. Wonder which Premium scope has the widest FOV at over 20x?
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
REAL tactical=3-15
One way range (precison rifle comps, etc)=5-25
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hershey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
</div></div>
If you're on a two-way range and the bad guys are within 100yds, a precison rifle ain't the weapon of choice, PERIOD.
Co-witness is for unmagnified optics.
REAL tactical=3-15
One way range (precison rifle comps, etc)=5-25
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hershey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
</div></div>
If you're on a two-way range and the bad guys are within 100yds, a precison rifle ain't the weapon of choice, PERIOD.
Co-witness is for unmagnified optics.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hershey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
i like to be able to shoot at high magnifcations, but my "hit" score(timed) are allot better w/ my 4 power acog than my 4.5x14 mk4, my shot placement is much better w/ the mk 4 but it takes longer to find the target. (no i am not that finacially well off, but my dad's toys are fun to shoot) </div></div>
Learn to shoot with both eyes open.
Seriously. When I am dealing with snaps, movers, or real live bad guys I keep both eyes open. It's fairly simple to notice the target in the non-dominant eye, then shift the glass to it.
Good luck co-witnessing a magnified optic. That's for "true" 1x optics like the EOTech or Aimpoint. My patrol rifle is an M4 with the Aimpoint set so that the irons are on a lower 1/3 co-witness. The purpose for this has NOTHING to do with target acquisition speed. It has to do with not having to touch anything to use your irons when your optic dies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hershey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try finding a pop up target that can shoot back at you w/ a 30x scope at 100yds, he could be using irons and have you dead before you ever found him in your glass.
that is kinda the co-witness idea of irons and optics.
i like to be able to shoot at high magnifcations, but my "hit" score(timed) are allot better w/ my 4 power acog than my 4.5x14 mk4, my shot placement is much better w/ the mk 4 but it takes longer to find the target. (no i am not that finacially well off, but my dad's toys are fun to shoot) </div></div>
Learn to shoot with both eyes open.
Seriously. When I am dealing with snaps, movers, or real live bad guys I keep both eyes open. It's fairly simple to notice the target in the non-dominant eye, then shift the glass to it.
Good luck co-witnessing a magnified optic. That's for "true" 1x optics like the EOTech or Aimpoint. My patrol rifle is an M4 with the Aimpoint set so that the irons are on a lower 1/3 co-witness. The purpose for this has NOTHING to do with target acquisition speed. It has to do with not having to touch anything to use your irons when your optic dies.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
I think tactical shooters and hunters have a lot in common:
1. Shooting at big targets: even 10x is sufficient out to 1k yards
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
3. Don't want another knob to adjust: i.e. parallax of higher mag scopes.
4. Don't want to carry a boat-anchor around: i.e. 2lb+ benchrest scopes.
5. Lowlight performance is much better at lower magnifications.
6. Mirage? what mirage?
In short, lower mag scopes are more practical.
I'm not a tactical shooter, but most hunters who need to more careful ID a trophy animal will also be carrying a spotting scope for that purpose. I suppose you could justify a higher mag rifle scope as a way to dump the spotter...but most of those scopes don't have a low enough "low" mag setting (1-3)
I think tactical shooters and hunters have a lot in common:
1. Shooting at big targets: even 10x is sufficient out to 1k yards
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
3. Don't want another knob to adjust: i.e. parallax of higher mag scopes.
4. Don't want to carry a boat-anchor around: i.e. 2lb+ benchrest scopes.
5. Lowlight performance is much better at lower magnifications.
6. Mirage? what mirage?
In short, lower mag scopes are more practical.
I'm not a tactical shooter, but most hunters who need to more careful ID a trophy animal will also be carrying a spotting scope for that purpose. I suppose you could justify a higher mag rifle scope as a way to dump the spotter...but most of those scopes don't have a low enough "low" mag setting (1-3)
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
</div></div>
Depends on what you consider a "Tactical" shooter. Most of us that do this for real carry a secondary 1x sight set. They are rigidly affixed to our handguns.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
</div></div>
Depends on what you consider a "Tactical" shooter. Most of us that do this for real carry a secondary 1x sight set. They are rigidly affixed to our handguns.
Re: How come lower power scopes fortactical purpos
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
</div></div>
Depends on what you consider a "Tactical" shooter. Most of us that do this for real carry a secondary 1x sight set. They are rigidly affixed to our handguns.
</div></div>
ROFL!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Need low magnification for quick target acquisition and up close and personal engagements. Ideal would be a 1x setting.
</div></div>
Depends on what you consider a "Tactical" shooter. Most of us that do this for real carry a secondary 1x sight set. They are rigidly affixed to our handguns.
</div></div>
ROFL!!
