Advanced Marksmanship How do you manage recoil?

[goodgorilla]

This might belong to the stupid marksmanship section, but some of the details do not seem that basic. A few days ago I discovered that I wasn't managing my recoil correctly off of a bench using a 308. So the next day I spent about 300 .22 rounds trying to figure out where I was going wrong. Seems like there were several areas like:

Not using my gun shoulder correctly.
Squeezing the sandbag to hard.
Pressing my face against the gun to hard.

For not using my gun shoulder correctly may have something to do with my stock being to short, but it's probably more than that because I wasn't shooting the .308 right. When I started out shooting my .22 I wasn't fighting the recoil at all, I was just letting it happen and letting my shoulder take the blow. By doing that, after the shot was taken the point aim was thrown upwards. I can't remember if it was throwing the shot high or not, but I remember when the recoil resulted in no right or left follow through, the bullet wasn't really straying left or right very much. Once I tried to reduce the barrel whip by pushing my shoulder into the rifle to fight barrel whip, the point of aim remained on target and resulted in a more accurate shot.

For squeezing the sandbag to hard, it seems that if I did that the point of aim would go off to the right or left after the shot, and makes me think the shot was to the left or right.
The same logic went for pushing my face to hard on the rifle, it resulted in the point of aim going off to the left. In addition to these things, I was able to have a more sturdy crosshair when I was being conscious of how hard I was squeezing the bag or face pressure on the stock.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Sounds like you are having more of a problem building a solid position and setting up your NPA

 

[PDXGS]

1. Get off the bench and go prone
2. Master the fundamentals- body position aligned behind the dominant shoulder, breathing, trigger control and follow through
3. Preload your bipod- if you're using one
4. Your non-trigger hand should be relaxed or slightly tight on the rear bag- no death grip.
5. The ergonomics of the rifle need to be set up for you- cheek weld, eye relief, length of pull.
6.learn how tot establish and/or adjust your natural point of aim (NPA).
Try to minimize your stress....relax, cut back on the caffeine or monster drinks, get decent rest, use good ear pro, a comfortable shooting mat....etc, etc.

 

[agbm]

I add a JP recoil eliminator and a Limbsaver recoil pad to start. Then I added a jewel trigger and it made a big difference.Those three item's helped me out a lot and allowed me to really work on perfecting my shooting skills.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Sounds like you are having more of a problem building a solid position and setting up your NPA

+1!!!

 

[goodgorilla]

1. Get off the bench and go prone
2. Master the fundamentals- body position aligned behind the dominant shoulder, breathing, trigger control and follow through
3. Preload your bipod- if you're using one
4. Your non-trigger hand should be relaxed or slightly tight on the rear bag- no death grip.
5. The ergonomics of the rifle need to be set up for you- cheek weld, eye relief, length of pull.
6.learn how tot establish and/or adjust your natural point of aim (NPA).
Try to minimize your stress....relax, cut back on the caffeine or monster drinks, get decent rest, use good ear pro, a comfortable shooting mat....etc, etc.

I believe my trigger control is ok, I believe my only problem is somewhere in after pulling the trigger. I do shoot prone whenever I can and when I do there is less problem after pulling the trigger. I also preload bipod, and understand that the gun needs to be as close to center of your body that you can manage. I also do controlled breathing. The natural point of aim sounds like another problem that I will need to look into. I wonder if I need to start a new thread about natural point of aim, I haven't even started to learn about it.

 

[Hawk45]

You could subscribe to the SnipersHide training courses for $10 a month. Well worth the money. Also, Jacob at Rifles Only has a fantastic video that teaches you exactly what you are working on, fundamentals. These small investments in good training can save you lots of time and money and bring joy instead of frustration to your shooting. Reviewing fundamentals is something even the most seasoned shooters need to do every once in a while.

 

[Darkside-Six]

1. Subscribe to the snipers hide training section.
2. Purchase "The fundamentals of Marksmanship" by Rifles Only DVD
3. Go to a precision rifle course in your area.

 

[damoncali]

Recoil management is 95% lining up the rifle so that the path of least resistance is straight back, which means putting your center of mass as close to inline with the recoil as possible. Probably an oversimplification, but the basic idea is "don't be crooked". Done right, you can watch the reticle bounce around inside the scope from the recoil.

 

[Pester]

1. Subscribe to the snipers hide training section.
2. Purchase "The fundamentals of Marksmanship" by Rifles Only DVD
3. Go to a precision rifle course in your area.

DSX is spot on in my opinion although I might rank order those differently. You can also go to You Tube and search for NSSF. There are a bunch of short instructional videos that would likely help. I was at a local comp yesterday and saw a lot of the top guys shooting. Always something to learn so dont forget knowing WHAT to do is one thing. Knowing HOW to do it is different. Having someone skilled giving you pointers is the best way to progress.

 

[djskit]

The natural point of aim sounds like another problem that I will need to look into. I wonder if I need to start a new thread about natural point of aim, I haven't even started to learn about it.

As others have eluded to, and you have stated here directly - this IS your problem.

Step 1) is positioning your body correctly behind the rifle
Step 2) is establishing an NPA.

Without a solid and consistent NPA, everything that happens afterword is meaningless. Any work on trigger control, breathing, recoil management, etc, etc etc, is waste of time, if you are not establishing an NPA.

 

[goodgorilla]

Recoil management is 95% lining up the rifle so that the path of least resistance is straight back, which means putting your center of mass as close to inline with the recoil as possible. Probably an oversimplification, but the basic idea is "don't be crooked". Done right, you can watch the reticle bounce around inside the scope from the recoil.

I will have to just practice with this in mind.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Without a solid and consistent NPA, everything that happens afterword is meaningless. Any work on trigger control, breathing, recoil management, etc, etc etc, is waste of time, if you are not establishing an NPA.

^Most succinct explanation here.^

I would add that practice with a .22 is great (I do it too), but it does not reproduce the recoil impulse that a full size cartridge does, so it can actually make worse problems with your basic form (building of position, follow-through, etc, fundamental stuff). Essentially, it can ingrain bad habits... like the pushing, pulling, (using muscles to aim) that you described above. One can get away with many sins behind the .22 that the .308 will not abide. I would stick with the .308 and practice finding/moving natural point of aim.

Good on ya for posting up an honest request for advice and not claiming to normally shoot 1/4 MOA all day long.

 

[goodgorilla]

^Most succinct explanation here.^

I would add that practice with a .22 is great (I do it too), but it does not reproduce the recoil impulse that a full size cartridge does, so it can actually make worse problems with your basic form (building of position, follow-through, etc, fundamental stuff). Essentially, it can ingrain bad habits... like the pushing, pulling, (using muscles to aim) that you described above. One can get away with many sins behind the .22 that the .308 will not abide. I would stick with the .308 and practice finding/moving natural point of aim.

Good on ya for posting up an honest request for advice and not claiming to normally shoot 1/4 MOA all day long.

The .308 belongs to a friend and will not be able to shoot it on a regular basis. My 7wsm will not be done until the end of the year. All I have is the .22 at the time and sources like sniper's hide. I'm guessing natural point of aim is when your sitting behind the rifle, let your muscles relax to see where the crosshair goes. If the crosshair stays on target, your natural point of aim is at the target, otherwise it is not on target. After firing the round, the recoil is going to go in that direction.

 

[PDXGS]

That's part of the NPOA.
-get on your scope with your normal cheek spweld and sight picture.
-relax your entire body and CLOSE YOUR EYES, breathe...
-now open your eyes and see if you're still on target...if so, then your NPOA is good....if not, you need to adjust your body...not just your hold. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

To hit consistently where aimed from shot to shot, what's important is making recoil resistance consistent from shot to shot; therefore, when I shoot, I am not thinking about recoil but instead I am thinking about rebuilding my position like it was for preceding shot. My focus is on sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through.

 

[goodgorilla]

That's part of the NPOA.
-get on your scope with your normal cheek spweld and sight picture.
-relax your entire body and CLOSE YOUR EYES, breathe...
-now open your eyes and see if you're still on target...if so, then your NPOA is good....if not, you need to adjust your body...not just your hold. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'll try to work on that this weekend. I never really gave it much practice.

 

[pinsandpitons]

I'll try to work on that this weekend. I never really gave it much practice.

This/that as described by pdwxgs will pay huge dividends.

 

[damoncali]

To hit consistently where aimed from shot to shot, what's important is making recoil resistance consistent from shot to shot; therefore, when I shoot, I am not thinking about recoil but instead I am thinking about rebuilding my position like it was for preceding shot. My focus is on sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through.

This is insightful, but incomplete. I believe that recoil control is a big part of accuracy - it's just that it isn't something that is actively managed. A good position and NPA will control recoil. Take care of the first two, and the third is a freebee. In high power, this manifests itself when the sights settle back on the bull immediately. Shooting off a bipod, it shows up as being able to see through the scope until the rifle settles again (also on the bull) or being able to watch the bullet hit. A problem with recoil indicates a problem with position or NPA.

 

[M40_A1]

A good position and NPA will control recoil.

damoncali, what is your definition of Natural Point of Aim?

 

[Graham]

How do you manage recoil?

Rifle in line with target; body in line with rifle. Meaning: No muscle tension used to build or maintain the position.

 

[M40_A1]

I would add that practice with a .22 is great (I do it too), but.....it can ingrain bad habits... like the pushing, pulling, (using muscles to aim) that you described above. One can get away with many sins behind the .22 that the .308 will not abide.

Au contraire. The longer barrel time of the .22 makes many of the fundamentals even MORE important, especially follow-through!! The difference in recoil only makes body positioning more forgiving with the .22; otherwise, small bore is great practice for big bore. It will not "ingrain bad habits". Whoever told you that must not shoot small bore competetively.

 

[damoncali]

damoncali, what is your definition of Natural Point of Aim?

Probably the same as everyone else - the point of aim when you are settled into position (without muscle). If I might read into your question a bit, it's not a given that an NPA will automatically control recoil. Every position, good and bad, after all, has an NPA.

But, if your position is good (you, the rifle and the target are lined up), and your NPA is off, recoil will also not be controlled well because you are muscling the gun, and voiding the "goodness" of your position. This might manifest itself by the sights coming back down off target after the shot.

If your position is bad, but your NPA is dead on, recoil will not be managed well. This is just physics- if you're lined up wrong, the recoil will twist you off target.

Only when your NPA is on target AND your position is solid will recoil be managed. I would also argue is that IF your position and NPA are good, it follows that recoil will be managed as well as the position allows in the vast majority of situations. I'm sure I could conjure up a situation where that is not the case (some weird barricade position, perhaps). But in normal situations (prone, sitting, kneeling), a good position is defined by its stability, and its stability is directly related to recoil management.

Maybe it's not an absolute law of nature, but I think this pattern works more often than not. In my experience, It certainly holds true for the prone and sitting positions with a sling or bipod.

 

[marduk185]

forgive me if its already been stated above, but i find possessing a pair of testicles helps to dampen any ill effects of recoil. short of that option, i assume a tampon properly placed may improve things slightly?

 

[pinsandpitons]

Hey dickwad! The op wasn't complaining about recoil, he asked a reasonable question. If you don't have anything to offer (apparently you don't) then move on.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Here's a summary of the effect recoil has on marksmanship:

A good position has three elements: bone/artificial support, muscular relaxation, and natural point of aim. If the shooter has good support the position will be muscularly relaxed; and, when relaxed, less muscle tension means less movement. Muscular relaxation also permits the use of maximum bone/artificial support to create minimum arc of movement (shooter wobble) and consistency in the resistance of recoil (control of rifle from the time the trigger is pulled until recoil subsides).

Natural point of aim is where the rifle will be naturally pointed upon shouldering the rifle if the shooter does not unconsciously steer the rifle to the target while shouldering it. Since the sight may not appear to be on the target when the rifle is allowed to point naturally, natural point of aim must be adjusted for the desired sight picture. Adjusting NPA rather than steering with muscle to get the desired sight picture is important since muscular effort induces wobble.

Now, the shooter must concentrate on the factors of a steady position: butt to shoulder, stockweld, grip, non-firing hand, and elbows. These factors describe the contact between shooter, gun, and ground, which must be consistent from shot to shot to also have consistent recoil resistance.

Making recoil resistance consistent is the secret to great shooting. It assures the angle between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet departure is more similar than dissimilar. Only when similar will small groupings be possible at LR and only when the angle is identical will the literal definition of a zero be realized.

Most shooters don't have a clue about this sort of discussion. They blame poor LR results on wind when the actual issue is rebuilding a consistent position from shot to shot. Even when told of the importance of rebuilding a consistent position these shooters do not know how to do it. They cannot feel when the position has been perfected as they have never learned how to properly fit themselves to their rifles.

There should be no mistaking the importance for making recoil resistance consistent; but, when the shooter who is using a bipod or sandbag support has no earlier experiences where muscular relaxation was realized from bone alone, the shooter may not be able to recognize the presence of muscle. Thus, even though the shooter is just using a hardly perceivable amount of muscle to maintain the sight picture, groupings are sure to be bigger than what could be possible.

The solution for the shooter described is to dry fire from bone alone but this is no fun and requires more discipline than the average shooter wants to put into it. It's why average shooters remain average shooters.

One more thought about NPA, NPA is only a problem when the rifle is initially steered to the target upon shouldering the rifle. Then, with sight on target being maintained with muscle, NPA would only be discoverable by relaxing, which will place the sight off the target. Since the brain does not want to take the sight off the target a struggle to realize NPA and thereafter adjust for a desired sight picture ensues. The solution is to just let the rifle point where ever it wants to point. To assure it points to where ever it wants to point, do not look at the target while shouldering the rifle. Don't overthink it. There is not much here to learn, just follow directions. If you do not understand any of this minutiae don't despair just remember when you shoot that anything different from shot to shot will produce a different result; therefore, attempt to discern how the position feels from shot to shot and make it feel comfortable.

 

[goodgorilla]

Most shooters don't have a clue about this sort of discussion. They blame poor LR results on wind when the actual issue is rebuilding a consistent position from shot to shot. Even when told of the importance of rebuilding a consistent position these shooters do not know how to do it. They cannot feel when the position has been perfected as they have never learned how to properly fit themselves to their rifles.

It's not easy to identify yourself as the problem. I am lucky to have a fellow member of the hide around to prove me wrong at his range. I'll have to get a shooting mat to do some dry practice.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

It's not easy to identify yourself as the problem. I am lucky to have a fellow member of the hide around to prove me wrong at his range. I'll have to get a shooting mat to do some dry practice.

From the little I've seen of your shooting, I'd say you are getting the job done; yet, if putting bullets in one hole is where you want to take it, then the how to of perfecting the position from shot to shot will need to be addressed. You seem to be off to a great start.

 

[goodgorilla]

I went to the range today and did plenty of experimenting. Seems like my NPA is good, breathing good, trigger control good, preload bipod good, relaxed muscles good, but something still seems to be off. I think my face might be to far back on the but of the stock or something. Or perhaps the way the gun is resting on my shoulder isn't right, or perhaps the way I am grabbing the bag (I'm still not exactly sure of it's function other than supporting the butt). Or maybe I'm not able to do better than 2 moa at 50 yards with my .22. It seems like everything I have tried didn't really matter very much. One thing I experimented with was how the stock was resting on my shoulder, it didn't seem to matter if I pulled it in real tight or let it rest on my shoulder. I think my stock might be to light and it's definitely a few inches to short. I did get one insane shot though, the one I put for my avatar. It was like the 3rd set I shot where the first round was a perfect bulls eye at 50 yards.

 

[goodgorilla]

This is starting to be like a shooting diary for me. Today I reduced my MOA by like .4. What seemed to help me the most was having the bench flush with my stomach instead of leaning on the side. Last time I tried that, one of the range masters made me get back to the side because he said the crown of the gun had to be over the front end of the bench. Today nobody messed with me and I was able to do a whole session of 250 rounds directly behind the bench. Something else seemed to help a little, and that was putting more pressure on my shoulder blade. Where on the butt is your shoulder blade suppose to contact? Seemed like I had the best results where my shoulder blade was somewhere around the middle of the butt.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

This is starting to be like a shooting diary for me. Today I reduced my MOA by like .4. What seemed to help me the most was having the bench flush with my stomach instead of leaning on the side. Last time I tried that, one of the range masters made me get back to the side because he said the crown of the gun had to be over the front end of the bench. Today nobody messed with me and I was able to do a whole session of 250 rounds directly behind the bench. Something else seemed to help a little, and that was putting more pressure on my shoulder blade. Where on the butt is your shoulder blade suppose to contact? Seemed like I had the best results where my shoulder blade was somewhere around the middle of the butt.

Ahah! There is your problem, the gun belongs in your shoulder pocket which is just below your collar bone and inside your anterior deltoid muscle. Your shoulder blade is on your back.

My former method of handling recoil is to tense every muscle and close my eyes just before the shot breaks. I have since found out that that is not conducive to accuracy.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Get off the bench. Prone, sitting, kneeling, standing. Unless you're shooting "bench"rest.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

This is starting to be like a shooting diary for me. Today I reduced my MOA by like .4. What seemed to help me the most was having the bench flush with my stomach instead of leaning on the side. Last time I tried that, one of the range masters made me get back to the side because he said the crown of the gun had to be over the front end of the bench. Today nobody messed with me and I was able to do a whole session of 250 rounds directly behind the bench. Something else seemed to help a little, and that was putting more pressure on my shoulder blade. Where on the butt is your shoulder blade suppose to contact? Seemed like I had the best results where my shoulder blade was somewhere around the middle of the butt.

You're using your brain to distinguish consistency but it appears you may still be somewhat unorganized. Perhaps you are doing too much thinking, which can overload productivity. This order may help:

1. Shoulder the rifle without looking at target or steering to it. Be cognizant of the 5 factors of a steady position, making all contact between shooter, gun, and ground consistent from shot to shot.

2. Adjust NPA for desired sight picture.

3. Focus on reticle.

4. Pull trigger SMOOTHLY.

5. Follow-though.

Remember, there should only be enough pressure on the rifle to control it.

About butt to shoulder, in any position, start with firing hand placed on butt plate to bring the stock to head, allowing for head to remain vertical and erect. Then, with non firing hand on fore end, push butt into pocket formed in shoulder. Note, the higher the position the higher the butt will be in shoulder. Lower body into position, dropping firing elbow to where ever it falls naturally. Whether you have a bipod or sandbag support, you might want to keep the non firing hand on the stock fore end with non firing elbow as close to directly under the rifle as possible. This will assure the height of your position is not too low. You should not need a rear bag; and, remember to relax the shoulder, that's to say, do not use shoulder tension to maintain the sight picture. Instead, to adjust NPA, move your belt buckle.

As others have suggested, after you have grasped sight alignment and trigger control, you might want to learn how to build a steady position starting from prone; and, I also think you might want to use bone alone or bone and sling instead of sandbags or bipod. With bone alone or with bone and sling you will be able to better feel for when you have maximized muscular relaxation, one of the three elements of a steady position.

One more thing, plot each call and shot. Then, by analyzing the call/strike corollary, and/or grouping pattern, you can better discern the cause of shot misplacement. For example, vertical grouping may suggest varying the butt position in shoulder, or not enough head pressure. Knowing the possible causes of error can allow you to concentrate on what it is you need to do to not repeat the error.

 

[goodgorilla]

Ahah! There is your problem, the gun belongs in your shoulder pocket which is just below your collar bone and inside your anterior deltoid muscle. Your shoulder blade is on your back.

My former method of handling recoil is to tense every muscle and close my eyes just before the shot breaks. I have since found out that that is not conducive to accuracy.

I realized I said the wrong bone just before logging on. Just below the collar bone? So you are saying the collar bone needs to be near the bottom of the butt. the top? I need to look up where the anterior deltoid muscle is, I know what the delts are, there's one on the front of your body, and one on the side. For the sake of positioning the gun, it's probably the one on the front.

Steerling, My shooter mat came in the mail today, and I'll start using that pretty soon. I'm gonna take next week off from shooting because I am starting to run low on .22 rounds. How is follow through suppose to be like? My current understanding is you want the crosshair to remain on target, and you need to have your trigger finger compressed briefly after pulling the trigger.

"
About butt to shoulder, in any position start with firing hand placed on butt plate to bring the stock to head, allowing for head to remain vertical and erect, or do you use the firing hand just to move the stock into the shoulder? Then with non firing hand on fore end push butt into pocket formed in shoulder. Note, the higher the position the higher the butt will be in shoulder. Lower body into position, dropping firing elbow to where ever it falls naturally. Whether you have a bipod or sandbag support, you might want to keep the non firing hand on the stock fore end with non firing elbow as close to directly under the rifle as possible. This will assure the height of your position is correct. You should not need a rear bag, and remember to relax the shoulder, that's to say, do not use shoulder tension to maintain the sight picture. Instead, to adjust NPA move your belt buckle.
"

I'm having trouble visualizing what is suppose to happen. In my mind you want to use the firing hand to adjust the vertical position on your shoulder, and the non firing hand the horizontal? Basically find the pocket and use your hands to adjust the stock. The way I have been doing it was backing off the butt with my body then getting back on, my way sounds pretty wrong. The elbow resting on the ground being as close to center sounds like a good tip. The way I have been doing it was just putting it wherever to make my body feel square to the rifle. Just thinking about my elbow being under the rifle makes me think my torso will have to torc to get the elbow there.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I realized I said the wrong bone just before logging on. Just below the collar bone? So you are saying the collar bone needs to be near the bottom of the butt. the top? I need to look up where the anterior deltoid muscle is, I know what the delts are, there's one on the front of your body, and one on the side. For the sake of positioning the gun, it's probably the one on the front.

Steerling, My shooter mat came in the mail today, and I'll start using that pretty soon. I'm gonna take next week off from shooting because I am starting to run low on .22 rounds. How is follow through suppose to be like? My current understanding is you want the crosshair to remain on target, and you need to have your trigger finger compressed briefly after pulling the trigger.

"
About butt to shoulder, in any position start with firing hand placed on butt plate to bring the stock to head, allowing for head to remain vertical and erect, or do you use the firing hand just to move the stock into the shoulder? Then with non firing hand on fore end push butt into pocket formed in shoulder. Note, the higher the position the higher the butt will be in shoulder. Lower body into position, dropping firing elbow to where ever it falls naturally. Whether you have a bipod or sandbag support, you might want to keep the non firing hand on the stock fore end with non firing elbow as close to directly under the rifle as possible. This will assure the height of your position is correct. You should not need a rear bag, and remember to relax the shoulder, that's to say, do not use shoulder tension to maintain the sight picture. Instead, to adjust NPA move your belt buckle.
"

I'm having trouble visualizing what is suppose to happen. In my mind you want to use the firing hand to adjust the vertical position on your shoulder, and the non firing hand the horizontal? Basically find the pocket and use your hands to adjust the stock. The way I have been doing it was backing off the butt with my body then getting back on, my way sounds pretty wrong. The elbow resting on the ground being as close to center sounds like a good tip. The way I have been doing it was just putting it wherever to make my body feel square to the rifle. Just thinking about my elbow being under the rifle makes me think my torso will have to torc to get the elbow there.

The prone position with bone alone or bone and sling is indeed one where the torso in either bent knee or straight leg configuration will be different than when shooting with bipod where non firing hand is at butt. Attempting to get body alignment parallel to rifle will cause extreme muscular tension and a rifle barrel too far from the non firing elbow. Utilizing the non firing hand, pulling the forend up into the chest will create the proper angle between your body and barrel.

 

[goodgorilla]

The prone position with bone alone or bone and sling is indeed one where the torso in either bent knee or straight leg configuration will be different than when shooting with bipod where non firing hand is at butt. Attempting to get body alignment parallel to rifle will cause extreme muscular tension and a rifle barrel too far from the non firing elbow. Utilizing the non firing hand, pulling the forend up into the chest will create the proper angle between your body and barrel.

Oh ok, you were talking about using the elbow to support your arm to support the gun, I thought you were talking about doing that with a bipod. Your saying to practice without the support? I think I am having selective understanding this morning.

edit: I brought my McMillan stock to my place to practice a bit. Seems like there are a million ways you can put the butt in the shoulder area. I've been experimenting with different positions. After I put the butt up to my shoulder I jerk the rifle to emulate a firing. Seems like there are 2 different type of recoil absorption. A fleshy absorption, and a bone like absorption. I think the bone absorption seems like the one I need to chase after. I still wonder if the positioning is right, because when I am satisfied with the butt position, it seems like there a top portion of the butt that isn't touching anything. I have my shooting mat with me, but I want to figure out this butt thing first.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

GG, not to contradict Sterling's superb instruction on the matter, but I learned a different way to mount a gun. It doesn't really apply to shooting prone supported, at least not all of it, but does to all the other positions in terms of establishing a good relationship between the butt of the gun and your NPA. In trap shooting, one brings the gun to the face first with the butt about 3" out from the shoulder and then uses both hands with the shooting hand as the guide and the support hand as the power to bring the gun back into the shoulder pocket. This with the shoulders and feet more or less square with the firing line. One then moves the feet to square up with the anticipated line of the target. This nearly always results in the gun positioned so you can look down the bbl and establish a sight picture slightly over the bbl. The rest, alignment with the target and firing hand position can be easily acquired. Assuming the initial move of the gun is correct, the butt should fall inside the line of the anterior deltoid in the top front of your shoulder and somewhere along the line of your clavicle which runs along the top of your shoulder along to your neck. No, it probably won't encompass the whole butt plate, depends on the distance between your cheek bone and that clavicle. As you move from standing to prone, that position is going to vary. How much will depend on rifle fit and your own physiognomy. Such things as length of pull, drop at toe, heel and comb and angular offset of comb and heel, called cast, all come into play. A properly fitted stock can make a huge difference in your bodies reaction to recoil and the effect is has on the gun. Remember trap guns shoot where you look when fitted correctly. Translated into rifle talk, it is much easier to achieve a relaxed NPA when your gun fits you right. Here is a place where a good coach with some experience with gun fit can make a huge difference in your shooting.

 

[steve123]

This might belong to the stupid marksmanship section, but some of the details do not seem that basic. A few days ago I discovered that I wasn't managing my recoil correctly off of a bench using a 308. So the next day I spent about 300 .22 rounds trying to figure out where I was going wrong. Seems like there were several areas like:

Not using my gun shoulder correctly.
Squeezing the sandbag to hard.
Pressing my face against the gun to hard.

For not using my gun shoulder correctly may have something to do with my stock being to short, but it's probably more than that because I wasn't shooting the .308 right. When I started out shooting my .22 I wasn't fighting the recoil at all, I was just letting it happen and letting my shoulder take the blow. By doing that, after the shot was taken the point aim was thrown upwards. I can't remember if it was throwing the shot high or not, but I remember when the recoil resulted in no right or left follow through, the bullet wasn't really straying left or right very much. Once I tried to reduce the barrel whip by pushing my shoulder into the rifle to fight barrel whip, the point of aim remained on target and resulted in a more accurate shot.

For squeezing the sandbag to hard, it seems that if I did that the point of aim would go off to the right or left after the shot, and makes me think the shot was to the left or right.
The same logic went for pushing my face to hard on the rifle, it resulted in the point of aim going off to the left. In addition to these things, I was able to have a more sturdy crosshair when I was being conscious of how hard I was squeezing the bag or face pressure on the stock.

You are pretty much discovering on your own some of the things not to do. Well done.

GG,

There's plenty of great advise here.

Too simplify and to be specific...

Try not to "torque" the rifle or at a minimum do everything the same for each shot, the recoil and the shot will typically go in the direction the rifle is torqued.

Developing proper "form". Avoid things like...

Changing hand position after you cycle the bolt or squeezing the grip.
Pushing against the cheek piece with your face differently from one shot to another.
Placing the butt in a different place on the shoulder pocket.
Pulling the trigger back at a angle/or jerking the trigger. For instance when you are shooting your 22 and you pull the trigger on a dud the rifle is supposed to be "dead", if there is any movement there is a problem.

The do's...

NPA.
Trigger press strait back.
Observe sameness.
Follow through-follow through-follow through.

Like I've mentioned to you a few times already in previous posts. For you to shoot a rifle to full potential the rifle must fit you perfectly. Until you are able to achieve this important goal consistency will be a bit of a struggle.

By far the best tool I've used to develop my form was buying a good quality air rifle with a fully adjustable stock. Any holes in my form became immediately obvious, were eliminated by practicing and I became a much better rifleman than before. All right here at my house too!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Search: Improve Your Prone Position-Tips from the USAMU, then click "the first shot" and go to article.

 

[goodgorilla]

Search: Improve Your Prone Position-Tips from the USAMU, then click "the first shot" and go to article.

CMP - First Shot Online!

lots of great info there.

 

[canezach]

Exccellent discussion in this thread. I hope someone can "diagnose" my own issue. Admittedly, I didn't give it much thought until I read something in this very thread that made me think of my last trip to the range.

I have read in more than one place about how good recoil management "allows" (for lack of a better term) you to remain behind the gun and that, if done properly, or should I say, if the shooter is lined up behind the rifle properly, then you can "watch the reticle bounce inside the scope". My last trip to the range consisted of a 100 yard zero check for two five round volleys, then I went to work on a steel target at 1080 yards. I distinctly remember my scope climbing, then settling, and my POA was about 5 or so mils to the left of the target. I shifted my aim in time to see my round splash on the steel. ETA - When I say climbing, I mean there was some vertical travel of my reticle, maybe 4 mils worth of climb, where the top of the target was visible in the bottom of my scope.

Here are the factors to be considered: The firing line is concrete (fairly smooth, too, not slightly ridged or rough, if you get what I'm saying), I'm shooting prone with an Atlas bipod mounted to the spigot on my AICS. I was using fairly heavy sandbags in front of the bipod legs so I could prelaod the bipod without having them slide on the concrete.

I'm never going to claim that I'm a sub 1/2 MOA guy all day long, so it's likely it was something I did. Perhaps I wasn't as lined up behind the rifle as I thought, or perhaps I didn't have the rifle into the pocket as well as I thought. Did I simply experience some bipod hop on the concrete? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

 

[steve123]

What cartridge are you shooting and is your rifle braked or suppressed?

 

[canezach]

What cartridge are you shooting and is your rifle braked or suppressed?

178 gr AMAX, 26" barrel, no suppressor or brake

 

[M40_A1]

How is follow through suppose to be like? My current understanding is you want the crosshair to remain on target, and you need to have your trigger finger compressed briefly after pulling the trigger.

Follow through has nothing to do with the sights. In fact, worrying about keeping the cross hairs on target after the shot defeats follow through. Follow through is simply doing nothing for a few moments after the shot. I used to think of follow through as beginning once the shot breaks, but now I consider follow through to begin once the trigger finger starts pressing the trigger. My eyes concentrate on the sights, and my finger presses the trigger while my mind concentrates on follow through.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Another way of saying it: Follow through is simply applying the principles until recoil has subsided. Follow through allows the bullet to clear the barrel before the brain allows the shooter to relax. Follow through permits the shooter to call the shot, that's to say, to recognize where the sight appeared to be on the target as the bullet cleared the bore. Calling the shot, a shooter can recognize the cause of most shooter error. For example, a shot called right-in-there which is right-in-there suggests proper execution of the firing tasks. A shot called at 3 o'clock which hits at 3 o'clock suggests movement of the rifle, perhaps from poor trigger control. A shot called right-in-there but actually hitting anywhere but right-in-there suggests a need to adjust sight to counter for effects on trajectory, like distance, slope, wind, and weather conditions.

 

[steve123]

178 gr AMAX, 26" barrel, no suppressor or brake

Recoil with your set up is getting up there enough to upset the sight picture like you describe, it is what it is and that's why muzzle devises are popular. I'm sure the hard surface and rubber feet contribute to the hopping. What is the hop like when you don't preload into the sand bags? When I load the bipod it's just enough forward pressure to make the bipod stop bending forward and that's all otherwise it would be hard to tell how much load I'd be imposing consistently, like I mentioned earlier too observe sameness as much as possible. At least the rifle is hopping up vs off to the side so you must have the rifle positioned pretty well. That's a lot of wind 5 mils holdoff!?

For me follow-through is when I've settled into the shot, began the trigger press and have let the rifle fire unanticipated, some would disagree but I've been successful using this method, of course I can only utilize as described in a very stable position where the wobble is minuscule. You'll know if follow through was executed correctly when the rifle is completely dead in the event of a misfire. When shooting in unstable positions I time the shot but continue with the hold for a brief moment after the shot. When this type of form has been developed you will notice that it's possible to call your own shots as to where on the target you'll hit.

 

[canezach]

Recoil with your set up is getting up there enough to upset the sight picture like you describe, it is what it is and that's why muzzle devises are popular. I'm sure the hard surface and rubber feet contribute to the hopping. What is the hop like when you don't preload into the sand bags? When I load the bipod it's just enough forward pressure to make the bipod stop bending forward and that's all otherwise it would be hard to tell how much load I'd be imposing consistently, like I mentioned earlier too observe sameness as much as possible. At least the rifle is hopping up vs off to the side so you must have the rifle positioned pretty well. That's a lot of wind 5 mils holdoff!?

I'm going to hit the range this week and see what my visible recoil (observed recoil? Through scope recoil? Whatever you want to call it) is like with some lower grain rounds.

When I said my point of aim was about 4 or 5 mils off, I meant when the rifle had settled after recoil. After settling, the very left edge of the target was visible in the right side of my scope, so I could quickly get back on target to observe my round impact. I had my scope dialed in for a half mil for windage. It was a blustery day, but the wind wasn't really full value. It was coming in from about 1 o'clock.

 

[Lowlight]

Managing recoil is all about technique, and has been demonstrated Ad nauseam.
It makes no difference the rifle, the barrel length, the bullet, especially with a 308.

I have shown how easy it is to control with a 20" 338, and i weigh all of 130LBS. If you follow the proper technique the rifle recoils straight back and moves very little. Video makes it easy to see, less than 1/2" of moment.

The same principles translate to alternate positions allowing the shooter to see the results of their impacts even from positions other than prone. As well these techniques can remove any deviation the shooter may have going from, say, Prone to the Bench, where poor recoil management skills cause POI deviations by those who ignore the principles.

if you're doing it wrong the recoil pulse (like electricity and the path of least resistance) will exploit "Your" error in position & technique.

We have enough videos to demonstrate the proper technique as well as instructional ones that go into details on how to do.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Consistent recoil resistance, this is describing a consistent shot to shot movement of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet departs from the muzzle, is essential to great shooting; yet, it is a concept, it appears, not recognized to be important by some shooters. They do not know that unless they have a consistent relationship between gun and ground from shot to shot the recoil resistance between shots will be more dissimilar than similar and thus, the angle between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet departure will be different from shot to shot too, preventing the bullet path from intersecting line of sight. In fact, even really good shooters have some difficulty with the realization of consistent recoil resistance, seeing groupings of misplaced shots, instead of seeing a singular hole through which all bullets have passed.

Muscular relaxation is the how to of getting the desired results. It permits the use of maximum bone/artificial support to create a minimum arc of movement and consistency in recoil resistance.

 

[steve123]

I'm going to hit the range this week and see what my visible recoil (observed recoil? Through scope recoil? Whatever you want to call it) is like with some lower grain rounds.

When I said my point of aim was about 4 or 5 mils off, I meant when the rifle had settled after recoil. After settling, the very left edge of the target was visible in the right side of my scope, so I could quickly get back on target to observe my round impact. I had my scope dialed in for a half mil for windage. It was a blustery day, but the wind wasn't really full value. It was coming in from about 1 o'clock.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood. Well just keep working on it. The rifle is going to move no matter what, the trick is finding the position so it recoils strait back and then goes strait forward again.

Most of my rifles are braked and the recoil impulse so slight I never think about recoil control anymore when shooting off the bipod. I just fire, see where I hit and make a correction if need be.

LL piped in so I'll defer to his expertise and videos.