How/or does recoil affect your groups. For example shooting off sand bags or a bi pod vs. shooting out of a lead sled. I noticed my groups were vertically separated when shooting out of the lead sled.
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how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
- Thread starter jsm.usmc
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Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Sand bags are more stable with practice. Bipod will "hop" on you. Especially if you are firing from a hard surface like concrete or packed earth.
Personally I prefer combination of a mechanical rest and sand bags. The main thing is to practice every time the same as before.
Keep notes and what you do and how you shoot. Composition books from any school supply for under $1 will work fine as a field notebook.
Sand bags are more stable with practice. Bipod will "hop" on you. Especially if you are firing from a hard surface like concrete or packed earth.
Personally I prefer combination of a mechanical rest and sand bags. The main thing is to practice every time the same as before.
Keep notes and what you do and how you shoot. Composition books from any school supply for under $1 will work fine as a field notebook.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
So do you think that shooting out of the lead sled affected my groups vs shooting off the ground on a bi pod
So do you think that shooting out of the lead sled affected my groups vs shooting off the ground on a bi pod
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
On this same note of recoil affecting accuracy, I've often wondered: Does the recoil pulse begin before the bullet leaves the bore? In my mind the recoil pulse wouldn't begin until the bullet left the bore thereby rendering the recoil a non issue. Something tells me I'm very wrong though.
On this same note of recoil affecting accuracy, I've often wondered: Does the recoil pulse begin before the bullet leaves the bore? In my mind the recoil pulse wouldn't begin until the bullet left the bore thereby rendering the recoil a non issue. Something tells me I'm very wrong though.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
I'm sure someone will let us know if I'm wrong, but I believe recoil starts as the bullet leaves the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">case</span></span>. You know that physics law about for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
I'm sure someone will let us know if I'm wrong, but I believe recoil starts as the bullet leaves the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">case</span></span>. You know that physics law about for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Recoil has a big affect on the shooter that much is true.
I believe that if the shooting is right, the accuracy and precision should be right regardless of the recoil.
I prefer a bipod and rear bag
Recoil has a big affect on the shooter that much is true.
I believe that if the shooting is right, the accuracy and precision should be right regardless of the recoil.
I prefer a bipod and rear bag
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FoxtrotBravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure someone will let us know if I'm wrong, but I believe recoil starts as the bullet leaves the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">case</span></span>. You know that physics law about for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. </div></div>
I believe you are correct. I've always heard that the recoil starts before the bullet leaves the barrel and have seen evidence of this...
One of my rifles shoots 2" high off of my rapid pivot bipod in the field verses off of the bench. Different holds also effect poi and shape of groups on a few of my rigs.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FoxtrotBravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure someone will let us know if I'm wrong, but I believe recoil starts as the bullet leaves the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">case</span></span>. You know that physics law about for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. </div></div>
I believe you are correct. I've always heard that the recoil starts before the bullet leaves the barrel and have seen evidence of this...
One of my rifles shoots 2" high off of my rapid pivot bipod in the field verses off of the bench. Different holds also effect poi and shape of groups on a few of my rigs.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
As mentioned everyone here is correct.
Difffernt aplications to shooring ie. bipods, sleds, sandbags, or even if you shoot from a sling in the prone.its the different amount of pressures applied to the rifle. just like a variance in stock weld or eye relief will affect the POI.
When I was on the Marine Corps Rifle team all rifles where tested of a sled for acccuracy. As well as for load development.
If your groups are vertical could it be the way the rifle is recoiling different. might not be strapped in an is moving around on you. Or load development.
ensure you are strapping it in correctly or mark its place on the sled an verify no movement.
Hope this helps some
Memo
As mentioned everyone here is correct.
Difffernt aplications to shooring ie. bipods, sleds, sandbags, or even if you shoot from a sling in the prone.its the different amount of pressures applied to the rifle. just like a variance in stock weld or eye relief will affect the POI.
When I was on the Marine Corps Rifle team all rifles where tested of a sled for acccuracy. As well as for load development.
If your groups are vertical could it be the way the rifle is recoiling different. might not be strapped in an is moving around on you. Or load development.
ensure you are strapping it in correctly or mark its place on the sled an verify no movement.
Hope this helps some
Memo
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
IT doesn't..
Recoil is produced when the bullet is leaving the barrel..
Your reaction/jump is what really f's you up. Or unless your
doing full auto or rapid fire..
Its not the recoil also.. Its how stable your support is underneath..
that's like saying if you put a ball on a pack and a roof top which will hold the ball longer.
Your groups are better off of bags because it can sit in the same spot just about every time..
and it keeps in on one place and doesnt force your stabilizer muscles to keep your
rifle from slipping.. Accuracy is all about
being able to repeat the same exact shot.. Over and over and over again.
IT doesn't..
Recoil is produced when the bullet is leaving the barrel..
Your reaction/jump is what really f's you up. Or unless your
doing full auto or rapid fire..
Its not the recoil also.. Its how stable your support is underneath..
that's like saying if you put a ball on a pack and a roof top which will hold the ball longer.
Your groups are better off of bags because it can sit in the same spot just about every time..
and it keeps in on one place and doesnt force your stabilizer muscles to keep your
rifle from slipping.. Accuracy is all about
being able to repeat the same exact shot.. Over and over and over again.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
My 2 cents worth is that recoil begins at ignition. Soon as the bullet starts moving, the recoil impulse begins. Example: In .45ACP, a 230 gr. bullet will have a higher POI than a 185 grainer. Reason: The 230 is slower and is in the barrel longer WHILE the recoil impulse is taking place.
My 2 cents worth is that recoil begins at ignition. Soon as the bullet starts moving, the recoil impulse begins. Example: In .45ACP, a 230 gr. bullet will have a higher POI than a 185 grainer. Reason: The 230 is slower and is in the barrel longer WHILE the recoil impulse is taking place.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Until the bullet leaves the barrel on a locked breeched action the energy is pushing equally in both directions thus creating recoil the instant the charge is ignited.
Until the bullet leaves the barrel on a locked breeched action the energy is pushing equally in both directions thus creating recoil the instant the charge is ignited.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Recoil begins the instant the primer ignites. It has to because Newton's third law says so: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. A primer's brisance is a tiny "action," to be sure, but it is an action nonetheless, and it is entitled to its own reaction.
The meat of the recoil comes as response to the bullet being accelerated down the barrel and the hot cloud of burning gunpowder following after it. So as the bullet sets off down the barrel, the same force is pushing the gun in the opposite direction. That "opposite direction" bit is crucial because that means it's pushing the barrel <span style="font-style: italic">exactly backwards</span> and not changing the point of aim. At least not yet.
The recoiling rifle eventually will encounter resistance, either from your shoulder or the lead sled or ...something. At that point the rifle will begin to rotate and recoil is transformed into muzzle rise. And it's muzzle rise that changes your point of aim, not recoil itself. What's key is how much head start the bullet gets before the rifle encounters this resistance and the muzzle flip begins.
The rifle is accelerated backwards by exactly the same amount of force as is accelerating the bullet forwards. But because <span style="font-weight: bold">Force = Mass x Acceleration</span> (or <span style="font-weight: bold">F÷M=A</span>), and because the rifle is far heavier than the bullet, its acceleration is much slower. Ten pounds works out to 70,000 grains so a 10-lb rifle firing a 200-gr bullet will experience (1/(70,000÷200)=) 1/350th the acceleration of the bullet. In real speed, how fast is that?
The African dangerous game rifles that have reputations for brutal recoil have a recoil speed of about 20 feet per second. A 10-lb .308 bolt gun firing a 175-gr FGMM recoils at about half that. Since it's this movement that's disturbing our aim, let's use the worst case, 20 fps.
And how long does recoil have to act on the bullet before it clears the muzzle and is beyond its influence? A typical rifle bullet will exit the muzzle in about 1 millisecond, 1/1000th of a second after ignition, give or take a tenth or two. And a rifle that moves 20 feet (240 inches) in one second only moves 0.24 inches in a millisecond. So worst case, the rifle's point of aim is only influenced by whatever muzzle flip occurs in the first quarter of an inch of movement under recoil.
Once the bullet exits the muzzle, the second phase of recoil begins but by then the bullet (and accuracy) is beyond the influence of the barrel. It's the "jet effect" of all the hot gas and burning powder that's just escaped from being cooped up behind the bullet.
The charge normally weighs less than the bullet but because kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, and because that cloud of hot gas is faster than the bullet (at least once the bullet gets out of its way), it's not uncommon for the energy of the "muzzle blast" to cause more recoil than bullet itself. That's exactly why devices like muzzle brakes and suppressors are so effective at reducing recoil. They redirect energy that otherwise would travel in a very narrow blast cone around the bullet's path at muzzle exit.
If your groups tighten noticeably from the use of a lead sled, I'd speculate that the improvement is as much the result of a steadier hold as it is the sled absorbing recoil.
Recoil begins the instant the primer ignites. It has to because Newton's third law says so: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. A primer's brisance is a tiny "action," to be sure, but it is an action nonetheless, and it is entitled to its own reaction.
The meat of the recoil comes as response to the bullet being accelerated down the barrel and the hot cloud of burning gunpowder following after it. So as the bullet sets off down the barrel, the same force is pushing the gun in the opposite direction. That "opposite direction" bit is crucial because that means it's pushing the barrel <span style="font-style: italic">exactly backwards</span> and not changing the point of aim. At least not yet.
The recoiling rifle eventually will encounter resistance, either from your shoulder or the lead sled or ...something. At that point the rifle will begin to rotate and recoil is transformed into muzzle rise. And it's muzzle rise that changes your point of aim, not recoil itself. What's key is how much head start the bullet gets before the rifle encounters this resistance and the muzzle flip begins.
The rifle is accelerated backwards by exactly the same amount of force as is accelerating the bullet forwards. But because <span style="font-weight: bold">Force = Mass x Acceleration</span> (or <span style="font-weight: bold">F÷M=A</span>), and because the rifle is far heavier than the bullet, its acceleration is much slower. Ten pounds works out to 70,000 grains so a 10-lb rifle firing a 200-gr bullet will experience (1/(70,000÷200)=) 1/350th the acceleration of the bullet. In real speed, how fast is that?
The African dangerous game rifles that have reputations for brutal recoil have a recoil speed of about 20 feet per second. A 10-lb .308 bolt gun firing a 175-gr FGMM recoils at about half that. Since it's this movement that's disturbing our aim, let's use the worst case, 20 fps.
And how long does recoil have to act on the bullet before it clears the muzzle and is beyond its influence? A typical rifle bullet will exit the muzzle in about 1 millisecond, 1/1000th of a second after ignition, give or take a tenth or two. And a rifle that moves 20 feet (240 inches) in one second only moves 0.24 inches in a millisecond. So worst case, the rifle's point of aim is only influenced by whatever muzzle flip occurs in the first quarter of an inch of movement under recoil.
Once the bullet exits the muzzle, the second phase of recoil begins but by then the bullet (and accuracy) is beyond the influence of the barrel. It's the "jet effect" of all the hot gas and burning powder that's just escaped from being cooped up behind the bullet.
The charge normally weighs less than the bullet but because kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, and because that cloud of hot gas is faster than the bullet (at least once the bullet gets out of its way), it's not uncommon for the energy of the "muzzle blast" to cause more recoil than bullet itself. That's exactly why devices like muzzle brakes and suppressors are so effective at reducing recoil. They redirect energy that otherwise would travel in a very narrow blast cone around the bullet's path at muzzle exit.
If your groups tighten noticeably from the use of a lead sled, I'd speculate that the improvement is as much the result of a steadier hold as it is the sled absorbing recoil.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
my groups got significantly worse with the sled than shooting off the bipod and a bag under the back of the gun.
my groups got significantly worse with the sled than shooting off the bipod and a bag under the back of the gun.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deerkllr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my groups got significantly worse with the sled than shooting off the bipod and a bag under the back of the gun. </div></div>
Then you need to work with what does best for you. I have also noticed myself that different rifles like to be held in different ways. I have 2 that prefer a snug hold and 2 that like a bear hug.
Just something else to think about.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deerkllr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my groups got significantly worse with the sled than shooting off the bipod and a bag under the back of the gun. </div></div>
Then you need to work with what does best for you. I have also noticed myself that different rifles like to be held in different ways. I have 2 that prefer a snug hold and 2 that like a bear hug.
Just something else to think about.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
wat should i use to perform a ladder test on a new gun? bags, sled, bipod. its a rem 700 300wm, heavey barrel, in a mcree stock. i built a sled, and i do most all my load tests in it, works great on my 308, and, 223, but im thinking the 300 has to much snort, and when in the sled, it cant move back under recoil, causing it to have excesive muzzle rise.will that mess up my tests do to muzzle rise? shouldnt a gun be allowd to move back while fired? i dont think my sled botherd the smaller guns as much, do to they dont kick near as much. thoughts, sujestions???
wat should i use to perform a ladder test on a new gun? bags, sled, bipod. its a rem 700 300wm, heavey barrel, in a mcree stock. i built a sled, and i do most all my load tests in it, works great on my 308, and, 223, but im thinking the 300 has to much snort, and when in the sled, it cant move back under recoil, causing it to have excesive muzzle rise.will that mess up my tests do to muzzle rise? shouldnt a gun be allowd to move back while fired? i dont think my sled botherd the smaller guns as much, do to they dont kick near as much. thoughts, sujestions???
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Give this a look, I found it somewhat interesting.
Understanding Recoil
Give this a look, I found it somewhat interesting.
Understanding Recoil
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deerkllr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How/or does recoil affect your groups. For example shooting off sand bags or a bi pod vs. shooting out of a lead sled. I noticed my groups were vertically separated when shooting out of the lead sled. </div></div>
Recoil affects the shooter's ability to shoot groups. Heavy recoiling rifles take their toll on the shooter, and that's why competition shooters typically try to use a cartridge that will get the job done with the least amount of recoil. Example: most service rifle competitors nowadays shoot .223 instead of .308.
Related to the recoil impulse is the fact that surface that the rifle is resting on also affects group size. A rifle resting on a hard surface tends to buck and bounce under recoil, while one resting on the shooter's hand or a surface with more give will almost always give a better group.
The idea is to have the rifle "return to battery" after each shot. This requires a setup that ideally allows the rifle to recoil straight back, and return to the spot it started from. If the rifle recoils at an angle, whether up, down or sideways, it typically will not return to the same starting point with consistency, and group sizes will suffer accordingly.
Sandbags alone or with a mechanical rest, or a rear bag coupled with a bipod have all worked well for me if I get them set up properly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deerkllr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How/or does recoil affect your groups. For example shooting off sand bags or a bi pod vs. shooting out of a lead sled. I noticed my groups were vertically separated when shooting out of the lead sled. </div></div>
Recoil affects the shooter's ability to shoot groups. Heavy recoiling rifles take their toll on the shooter, and that's why competition shooters typically try to use a cartridge that will get the job done with the least amount of recoil. Example: most service rifle competitors nowadays shoot .223 instead of .308.
Related to the recoil impulse is the fact that surface that the rifle is resting on also affects group size. A rifle resting on a hard surface tends to buck and bounce under recoil, while one resting on the shooter's hand or a surface with more give will almost always give a better group.
The idea is to have the rifle "return to battery" after each shot. This requires a setup that ideally allows the rifle to recoil straight back, and return to the spot it started from. If the rifle recoils at an angle, whether up, down or sideways, it typically will not return to the same starting point with consistency, and group sizes will suffer accordingly.
Sandbags alone or with a mechanical rest, or a rear bag coupled with a bipod have all worked well for me if I get them set up properly.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
I think controling recoil "consistently" is the key. The means you use to do this are shooter specific and probably arent the same for each person. Heavier recoiling calibers require more control and input from the operator, and I would use the means that is most comfortable to you and repeatable each shot.
I think controling recoil "consistently" is the key. The means you use to do this are shooter specific and probably arent the same for each person. Heavier recoiling calibers require more control and input from the operator, and I would use the means that is most comfortable to you and repeatable each shot.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
When I was testing loads for a 300 Win Mag, the velocity maximum deviation numbers are lower if using a weighted sandbag between the rifle and my shoulder.
I was never able to see the difference on a 200yd target though.
I've never used the sandbag on further distances to test for accuracy but always said I was going to.
When I was testing loads for a 300 Win Mag, the velocity maximum deviation numbers are lower if using a weighted sandbag between the rifle and my shoulder.
I was never able to see the difference on a 200yd target though.
I've never used the sandbag on further distances to test for accuracy but always said I was going to.
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
If the bullet's accelerating within the bore, an equal and opposite reaction will be at work. Must be, no arguments, Newton's Third Law. There is also a secondary Third Law reaction when the muzzle blast occurs, ala rocket thrust.
As the first stage (bore transit) occurs, rearward rifle motion is happening, and how it is allowed to cause bore axis deviations will determine both POI height and a considerable portion of bullet dispersion as well. If it rides the bags, etc., straight rearward, the POI will be lower than where it would be with perceptible muzzle flip.
So the answer is not just yes, it's Hell, yeah!
Greg
If the bullet's accelerating within the bore, an equal and opposite reaction will be at work. Must be, no arguments, Newton's Third Law. There is also a secondary Third Law reaction when the muzzle blast occurs, ala rocket thrust.
As the first stage (bore transit) occurs, rearward rifle motion is happening, and how it is allowed to cause bore axis deviations will determine both POI height and a considerable portion of bullet dispersion as well. If it rides the bags, etc., straight rearward, the POI will be lower than where it would be with perceptible muzzle flip.
So the answer is not just yes, it's Hell, yeah!
Greg
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
Just to add, when a body is in motion it resists change in motion and also direction.
When you watch a BR shooter, they will let their rifles recoil freely. Once the charge is ignited, and the recoil starts, the mass in motion resists change and the barrel wants to remain on the same axis of motion. Less (I say less, not none) tendency for the barrel to pitch or yaw. Of course with their rifles every effort is made to make sure that this recoil is directed in a straight line with minimal or no "cheek weld" or shoulder contact other than to stop the recoil after the round has left the muzzle.
This may be optimum for BR shooting but very impractical when shooting in a Tactical situation.
Probably best to develop your ammmo and style with the method you intend to use later. Bags or Bipod are most common in the "field", not too many Lead Sleds.
I might shoot a few rounds using a Caldwell "Rock" Rest and sandbag to test some ammo but from there on it's bipod and practice. Once I know that ammo's not the problem then I work on "Me".
Just to add, when a body is in motion it resists change in motion and also direction.
When you watch a BR shooter, they will let their rifles recoil freely. Once the charge is ignited, and the recoil starts, the mass in motion resists change and the barrel wants to remain on the same axis of motion. Less (I say less, not none) tendency for the barrel to pitch or yaw. Of course with their rifles every effort is made to make sure that this recoil is directed in a straight line with minimal or no "cheek weld" or shoulder contact other than to stop the recoil after the round has left the muzzle.
This may be optimum for BR shooting but very impractical when shooting in a Tactical situation.
Probably best to develop your ammmo and style with the method you intend to use later. Bags or Bipod are most common in the "field", not too many Lead Sleds.
I might shoot a few rounds using a Caldwell "Rock" Rest and sandbag to test some ammo but from there on it's bipod and practice. Once I know that ammo's not the problem then I work on "Me".
Re: how does recoil affect accuracy?lead sled vs. bags
I will put my vote with others that say the recoil starts as soon as the bullet leaves the case. It appears the recoil impulse in this video is happening before the bullet leaves the barrel. Go to 1:07 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0VjdI_S_HM
I will put my vote with others that say the recoil starts as soon as the bullet leaves the case. It appears the recoil impulse in this video is happening before the bullet leaves the barrel. Go to 1:07 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0VjdI_S_HM
