How much barrel life is affected from mil surp 308?

Happiness Is A Warm Gun

Supporter
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 2, 2019
455
286
NC
I have read several posts debating the concept of whether military surplus 762 nato ammo shortens barrel life or not. What all are your experiences with this? If it does have an impact, which seems to be the case, exactly how much more is the barrel life reduced compared to non surplus brass ammo?

The reason I ask is I am sitting on around 2,250 rounds of the old radway green surplus, 500 of the German 762, and another thousand of us xm ammo from my old fal days that I ordered over a decade ago. This would be going through the lmt mws I ordered in feb when it finally arrives from v1tactical.

With as crazy as ammo prices are now, it isn't so easy to just avoid shooting what I have on hand, so I guess I want to try and see exactly how much faster it will wear out a barrel.
 
Who cares, just shoot the shit out of what you have and replace the barrel when you shoot it out. Those Lmt barrels run and run. I’ve run 20k plus of shit Ammo through an Lmt mrp, with mostly mag dumps and it was still shooting moa.

You can find mws barrels for $400-$600 which is nothing compared to the $10-$15k of amount cost to get there
 
Yeah, the advantage of the lmt is how easy it is to put in a new barrel. I was asking more out of curiosity's sake than anything. Or for those non lmt 308 barrels. I never thought about it when the surplus ammo was 40 cents a round, but geeze now I see people selling it for over a dollar a round for 1980s surplus that isn't super accurate to begin with.
 
The original date for delivery was back in October, so who knows when it gets here.

Ok so two months late now. However, you might be waiting a bit as Lmt is still working on Estonia orders.

I spoke to the owner, John of v1 last week, and he told me that Lmt is still tied up and they have no dates from them as of yet. He did put a pre order of $2million to Lmt in April, so they should be getting first dibs or close to first dibs on retail products, as few companies pre order with cash beforehand.

In any case, if you haven’t owned a mws, you should be happy with it. Rifles are built like tanks and can shoot.
 
No Offense... but your concerns might be over rated.

I have fired thousands of .308 / 7.62x51 surplus over the years... SA, RG, Port, DAG, IMI, XM80 , with a bunch of others in there as well. A lot of those were through my M21 and numerous .308 Large Frame AR's.

The barrels are typically Match quality... Douglas, Criterion, Krieger, as well as CL'd FN's

"If" those rounds have taken life out of the various barrels.... I haven't noticed.

I tend not to blast away ammo... I prefer precision, so my rate of fire is moderate.

Now if I was firing as fast as possible / FA, I'd be more concerned... since the heat generated is the barrel killer.
 
No Offense... but your concerns might be over rated.

I have fired thousands of .308 / 7.62x51 surplus over the years... SA, RG, Port, DAG, IMI, XM80 , with a bunch of others in there as well. A lot of those were through my M21 and numerous .308 Large Frame AR's.

The barrels are typically Match quality... Douglas, Criterion, Krieger, as well as CL'd FN's

"If" those rounds have taken life out of the various barrels.... I haven't noticed.

I tend not to blast away ammo... I prefer precision, so my rate of fire is moderate.

Now if I was firing as fast as possible / FA, I'd be more concerned... since the heat generated is the barrel killer.

None taken. I had no idea this was even an argument until the other day from reading here. I guess the fal people didn't care or knew the fals weren't accurate enough to start with to make a difference! Your experience is exactly what I was wanting to read. Now that I am getting into 308 ARs I wanted to see what difference it made since they are far more accurate than the old battle rifles.
 
Not sure why copper jacket, brass case military surplus would shorten barrel life.

I thought the Nato stuff is not even as hot as modern .308 ammo.
 
The Malaysian stuff I have is hot and accurate.
I remember when Sam @SGAmmo first got it in and priced it dirt cheap, I bought up half a pallet of it.

I like that stuff. It shoots well out of my M1A and FAL. I also picked up a little stash of it from SG ammo.

I see tests showing about 2,700 FPS with longer barrels and about 2,520 FPS out of a 16 inch semi auto. I think that’s about standard.

Bi metal jacket. Not sure how thick the copper is or if it's effective, so I’m shooting this stuff in my older military rifles, not the match guns.
 
Last edited:
I also picked up an Sr25 CC upper a few weeks ago. I am guessing it is the same as the lmt in that it shouldn't matter much since it is a chrome lined barrel, though obviously not as easy to rebarrel as the lmt.
 
I have read several posts debating the concept of whether military surplus 762 nato ammo shortens barrel life or not. What all are your experiences with this? If it does have an impact, which seems to be the case, exactly how much more is the barrel life reduced compared to non surplus brass ammo?

The reason I ask is I am sitting on around 2,250 rounds of the old radway green surplus, 500 of the German 762, and another thousand of us xm ammo from my old fal days that I ordered over a decade ago. This would be going through the lmt mws I ordered in feb when it finally arrives from v1tactical.

With as crazy as ammo prices are now, it isn't so easy to just avoid shooting what I have on hand, so I guess I want to try and see exactly how much faster it will wear out a barrel.

No more or less, nothing to worry about
 
Copper plated steel jackets have been proven to accelerate barrel wear. Solid copper jackets, no problem. That said, in almost every case when this type of discussion comes up (this one or steel cased vs. brass cased), the cost savings of the "junk" ammo buys a new barrel/extractor/bolt/whatever well before the replacement is necessary.
 
None taken. I had no idea this was even an argument until the other day from reading here. I guess the fal people didn't care or knew the fals weren't accurate enough to start with to make a difference! Your experience is exactly what I was wanting to read. Now that I am getting into 308 ARs I wanted to see what difference it made since they are far more accurate than the old battle rifles.
FWIW... some surplus can be quite accurate.... 20rds rapid'ish fire, 100yds.... YMMV
IMG_2475_thumb_711861fafb2654239279af7afabd4f78-708437.jpg
 
DAG is the only surplus I'd ever shoot in any scenario not involving the end of the universe. It blows my mind how accurate and consistent that ammunition is across so many different firearms. I don't know what magic voodoo is involved, but I wish I could load ammunition that would shoot that well in millions of different firearms. Sure, you can reload better for an individual rifle, but DAG is basically the FGMM of surplus. It shoots well in almost anything.

All the rest, save it in a bunker for CQB training and/or whatever world ending scenario you cosplay for. Go load some ammo or buy better stuff to train to be a better shooter. You don't learn good fundamentals of precision shooting when dealing with variance from 4MOA-on-a-good-day ammunition.
 
The way I heard it, the Malaysian stuff is made on machinery brought in and set up by Winchester in/prior to the 1980's. I have found that the brass (5.56) is excellent for reloading. I bought a couple of ammo cans worth of it in the late 1990's.

This past week I have been processing/prepping a batch of 500 old assorted bulk 5.56 brass cases for reloading; and sure enough, when the stuff was sorted out by headstamp, there were twenty MAL 10-81's in there.

The Malaysian 5.56 I bought shot and reloaded since back in the 1990's has shot, reloaded, and otherwise performed as well as any other serious (LC, IMI, etc.) GI brass I've handled.

I can't speak to the 308 stuff; I never had any to try out. Photos of Malaysian 7.62x51 NATO I have seen on SGammo look atrocious, but IMHO that simply indicates poor care during storage, some of which has been described as having been brought out from under water.

Greg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: camocorvette
Surplus ammo is no worse than match ammo unless you are talking about bimetal.

The real statement should be dont waste your valuable barrel life with a match barrel and junk ammo. Shoot the surplus ammo in guns with coated bores and not precision platforms.
 
i'm not even sure all bi-metal means the same thing.
are we only talking about bullets that are attracted to a magnet?
many ranges say "steel core or bi-metal ammo not allowed. tested with a magnet.
ppu is not magnetic. is malaysian or other "surplus" ammo different?
 
They are talking about non brass/copper jackets. Some ammo is produded with steel or other harder metal jackets that are cheaper but are more abrasive to the barrel. They will reduce barrel life in both coated and non coated barrels.
 
Heat and friction kills barrels. The jackets used are infinitely softer than your barrel not withstanding semi auto nature of shooting cycle. Powder and pressure curve matters here

Zero issue
 
Thats partially correct. Guys like pat rodgers and todd green had significantly quicker barrel degredarion shooting tula and wolf than brass cases/copper jacketed. It reduced the barrel life by half in cmv hammer forged chromed barrels. Infos old but out there if you search. Also had higher incents of bolt breakage and steel case removes less heat from the chamber than brass due to differences thermo conductivity causing premature chamber and throat wear with rapid firing schedules.

Most people will never shoot that much and even then ammo cost makes cost of a new barrel insignificant but doesnt change the facts.
 
Thats partially correct. Guys like pat rodgers and todd green had significantly quicker barrel degredarion shooting tula and wolf than brass cases/copper jacketed. It reduced the barrel life by half in cmv hammer forged chromed barrels. Infos old but out there if you search. Also had higher incents of bolt breakage and steel case removes less heat from the chamber than brass due to differences thermo conductivity causing premature chamber and throat wear with rapid firing schedules.

Most people will never shoot that much and even then ammo cost makes cost of a new barrel insignificant but doesnt change the facts.
what that test didn't do is actually uniformally test the bullets and decided it was the bullets meanwhile, the tula and wolf had higher pressure curves closer to the throat which is where the wear was. Tula was much closer and the curve is almost immediate

it's not the bullets in fact, the Germans did testing and found burn curve to matter moe

the lucky gunner test is beyond bad for a multitude of reasons some above
 
  • Like
Reactions: theLBC
what that test didn't do is actually uniformally test the bullets and decided it was the bullets meanwhile, the tula and wolf had higher pressure curves closer to the throat which is where the wear was. Tula was much closer and the curve is almost immediate

it's not the bullets in fact, the Germans did testing and found burn curve to matter moe

the lucky gunner test is beyond bad for a multitude of reasons some above
Some of the earlier tests with BCM and DD rifles where they were torture testing to see how they would hold up.. Its how we got the filthy 14 and others.

They did other shit like shooting pistols to failure (M&P was destroyed after 60k rounds, glock kept on ticking with consumable parts replaced like springs and extractor)

Its not just the pressure curve, its also heat. The steel cases do not extract heat the at the same rate as brass due to their lack of malleability and thermal propperties. This results in a hotter chamber and throat which will degrade faster. The harder bullet materials will wear through chrome lining faster.

With all that being said I still shoot steel through my training and work carbines. My SR-15's run well on Tula/Wolf and Its usualy what I run in training classes due to cost. Saving $1-200 per 1k of rounds is huge and and after 10-20K, the cost savings will buy a whole new gun. We shooting 25M and in the vast majority so accuracy is not a factor. Just need to be aware of whats going it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theLBC
I read the Lucky Gunner report several times because I already had an investment in several cases of the 55gr 223 stuff, and I had both basic and precision rifles to shoot it out of. I wanted to be certain I wasn't going to screw up any decent barrels of my own.

Rear and rereading, and weighing both LG's and my own conclusions, I determined the following.

The most significant point of wear was the extractors. The steel case stuff was especially unkind to the basic AR extractor. I just recently replaced a broken extractor. It was a ten minute job with basic tools, and the parts cost, even using upgraded parts, was nearly negligible.

Bore wear with the 'steel case" was more significant. But, the firing cadence was rapid, far more so than I would have ever done with any ammo in any AR I own. The report noted this and cited this as a factor that significantly accelerated bore wear by both types of ammo, but especially with the "Steel case" ammo.

Let's stop a moment, and examine this 'Steel Case' ammo. The term is misleading; nearly a misnomer, Yes there are components in the metallic jacket that are contained in what is commonly called steel, but the formulation is important, and that which is present in Steel jacketed ammo is so different that I would personally prefer to call it "iron core" jacket material. Its very need to be ductile and malleable makes it almost diametrically different from what most of us mean when we say "steel", as in Tool Steel. Many of us would be surprised to find out that during WWII, just about every one of the powers used these steel jacketed bullet, including the USA. There were literally millions of rounds of steel core 30-06 produced by the US during WWII.

I have the stuff, that doesn't mean it's my first choice. It's my last choice, my "back's against the wall" choice; the choice I use when it's me or the barrel, buddy. Some of you might make that same choice. What pretty much all of us (the ones in our right minds, anyway), would not do is multiple absolutely fastest possible mags dumps with the stuff. It has a place in our viewpoints, and that's not it.

It's OK, IMHO, for plinking, especially regarding cost. It's something to keep on hand for when you can no longer afford to send the every best, and if you don't send something, the game's just plain completely up. It has its place, it's just not likely to ever be first place.

At my house, there's a rifle reserved for its use on a heavier than usual scale. Sitting directly next to that rifle in the gun cabinet is a brand new identical replacement barrel.

Over the recent years here at The 'Hide, we have come to the recognition that barrels are wear items; parts with expected life spans, with an expected eventual replacement in their futures.

So I'd say, if we must be Nervous Nellies and shy away from things like steel jackets, let's of course do so.

But we don't all have to do that.

Greg
 
Last edited:
FWIW... some surplus can be quite accurate.... 20rds rapid'ish fire, 100yds.... YMMV
View attachment 7498281

Here’s a thread I posted seven years ago with chronograph results for the DAG, MEN, AB Ballistics:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/7-62x51-military-surplus-report-dag-men-a-b.71577/

The DAG was clearly the best in the bunch.

~8 SD out of an original Laure OBR with a Lothar Walther Barrel

(as the weapon warmed up the spread got worse… I need to try it with the bolt gun)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bfoosh006
Here’s a thread I posted seven years ago with chronograph results for the DAG, MEN, AB Ballistics:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/7-62x51-military-surplus-report-dag-men-a-b.71577/

The DAG was clearly the best in the bunch.

~8 SD out of an original Laure OBR with a Lothar Walther Barrel

(as the weapon warmed up the spread got worse… I need to try it with the bolt gun)
Thank you for the chrono data, that is a very nice, low SD from the DAG, MEN and your reloads.
Actually pretty amazingly low for "MilSpec" ammo.

Again thanks for sharing, I had not seen your post before.