Let's say you are using a bolt action rifle with a bipod on a wooden table in the sitting position. At 100 yards how many inches away from the target is it normal for the reticle to drift? I know you can never hold the rifle perfectly still like a vise but should you be able to keep it within an area of 1 MOA, 2 MOA, etc?
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Advanced Marksmanship How Much Movement Is Normal?
- Thread starter dan46n2
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Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's say you are using a bolt action rifle with a bipod on a wooden table in the sitting position. At 100 yards how many inches away from the target is it normal for the reticle to drift? I know you can never hold the rifle perfectly still like a vise but should you be able to keep it within an area of 1 MOA, 2 MOA, etc? </div></div>
A position built on bone/artificial support which is muscularly relaxed with NPA adjusted will have very little wobble, even if it's a kneeling or standing position. In prone, or sitting position, the position with a sling support can indeed be vice like.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's say you are using a bolt action rifle with a bipod on a wooden table in the sitting position. At 100 yards how many inches away from the target is it normal for the reticle to drift? I know you can never hold the rifle perfectly still like a vise but should you be able to keep it within an area of 1 MOA, 2 MOA, etc? </div></div>
A position built on bone/artificial support which is muscularly relaxed with NPA adjusted will have very little wobble, even if it's a kneeling or standing position. In prone, or sitting position, the position with a sling support can indeed be vice like.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
I have recently found that prone with the bipod on grass/somewhat soft dirt, the reticle comes right back to the target after the recoil pulse is over. Believe me, I was shocked to see that.
Prone with the bipod on concrete I might end up off the target after recoil. So the surface the bipod is on makes a big difference for me.
The goal is to have the reticle come right back on your target where it was before the shot. I don't know how much deviation from that is acceptable? I thought it was out of reach for me till I got in the grass where the bipod is loaded much more easily.
That's not really much of an answer. Other than to suggest that you try getting something with more "grip" under your bipod and see if it helps. It might make a bigger difference than you think.
I have recently found that prone with the bipod on grass/somewhat soft dirt, the reticle comes right back to the target after the recoil pulse is over. Believe me, I was shocked to see that.
Prone with the bipod on concrete I might end up off the target after recoil. So the surface the bipod is on makes a big difference for me.
The goal is to have the reticle come right back on your target where it was before the shot. I don't know how much deviation from that is acceptable? I thought it was out of reach for me till I got in the grass where the bipod is loaded much more easily.
That's not really much of an answer. Other than to suggest that you try getting something with more "grip" under your bipod and see if it helps. It might make a bigger difference than you think.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
The situation you describe; seated at 100 yrds from a concrete bench movement should be .25 moa or less. If not you need to evaluate your position. Many factors afffect position stabitiy.
The situation you describe; seated at 100 yrds from a concrete bench movement should be .25 moa or less. If not you need to evaluate your position. Many factors afffect position stabitiy.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshotbml</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The situation you describe; seated at 100 yrds from a concrete bench movement should be .25 moa or less. If not you need to evaluate your position. Many factors affect position stabitiy. </div></div>
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I agree that 1/4 MOA is what a good shooter can accomplish with a 5+ shot group but that does not necessarily mean the reticle is moving only 1/4 MOA in area in relation to the bullseye. Or is that exactly what you are saying? Even if the reticle is moving in a 2 MOA area you can still get 1/4 MOA groups. I can get 1 MOA with my ARs and 1/2 or better with my bolt gun but the reticle can move 2 MOA or more in the position I described. Looks like I need to do some work?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshotbml</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The situation you describe; seated at 100 yrds from a concrete bench movement should be .25 moa or less. If not you need to evaluate your position. Many factors affect position stabitiy. </div></div>
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I agree that 1/4 MOA is what a good shooter can accomplish with a 5+ shot group but that does not necessarily mean the reticle is moving only 1/4 MOA in area in relation to the bullseye. Or is that exactly what you are saying? Even if the reticle is moving in a 2 MOA area you can still get 1/4 MOA groups. I can get 1 MOA with my ARs and 1/2 or better with my bolt gun but the reticle can move 2 MOA or more in the position I described. Looks like I need to do some work?
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how much wiggling into position is acceptable while I acquire the crosshairs? </div></div>
This is what I am referring to. With breathing, your pulse, and other factors affecting movement, what is an acceptable area of movement? When the reticle crosses over the point you want to break the trigger that is something else. But before this happens the best I can do is about 2 MOA of area that my reticle moves in relation to the point I am trying to align the crosshairs of the reticle to. So is this ok or do I need to work at it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how much wiggling into position is acceptable while I acquire the crosshairs? </div></div>
This is what I am referring to. With breathing, your pulse, and other factors affecting movement, what is an acceptable area of movement? When the reticle crosses over the point you want to break the trigger that is something else. But before this happens the best I can do is about 2 MOA of area that my reticle moves in relation to the point I am trying to align the crosshairs of the reticle to. So is this ok or do I need to work at it?
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
Well I was shooting my 77/22 off a Harris bipod and rear leather sandbag at 100 yards today from a seated bench position. I was getting about 1/8 to 1/4 MOA movement. If you're getting 2 MOA movement from that type of position, something is really wrong.
Well I was shooting my 77/22 off a Harris bipod and rear leather sandbag at 100 yards today from a seated bench position. I was getting about 1/8 to 1/4 MOA movement. If you're getting 2 MOA movement from that type of position, something is really wrong.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
When the position is built properly with bone/artifical support, that's to say when it transfers the stability of the ground into the position, there will be very little wobble. In a properly built bench or prone position there should be no noticable wobble.
When the position is built properly with bone/artifical support, that's to say when it transfers the stability of the ground into the position, there will be very little wobble. In a properly built bench or prone position there should be no noticable wobble.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
mmmm might have to employ a sling at some point
Many of you guys use slings whilst prone?
The other day at the range, at 400 yards i had 3 shots create a .25moa group and then 2 "fliers" opened the group up to 1.25moa with 5 shots.
Would you guys consider this to be a good group? I would be extatic if all 5 landed within .25moa however these last two shots have me asking questions.
I also feel, that at 400 yards, this degree of movement is difficult to distinguish.
Tips would be much appreciated
mmmm might have to employ a sling at some point
Many of you guys use slings whilst prone?
The other day at the range, at 400 yards i had 3 shots create a .25moa group and then 2 "fliers" opened the group up to 1.25moa with 5 shots.
Would you guys consider this to be a good group? I would be extatic if all 5 landed within .25moa however these last two shots have me asking questions.
I also feel, that at 400 yards, this degree of movement is difficult to distinguish.
Tips would be much appreciated
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
If you are seeing 2 moa of movement, prone with a bipod, something is SERIOUSLY wrong!
If you are seeing 2 moa of movement, prone with a bipod, something is SERIOUSLY wrong!
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody mentioned using a rear bag yet? </div></div>
I picked one up a month ago for the first time, what.huge.difference it makes. I had just been using my left hand in a fist, but a rear hag supplies.so much more.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody mentioned using a rear bag yet? </div></div>
I picked one up a month ago for the first time, what.huge.difference it makes. I had just been using my left hand in a fist, but a rear hag supplies.so much more.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
I am still confused.
Are you asking about movement -
Prior to the shot?
During recoil?
Once the gun settles back after recoil?
Me at 825 the other day - prone with a bi pod and a rear bag on a sloped (to my left), rutted and rocky skid trail
Prior to - none -> less than 1/10 MIL
During recoil - 3/4 MIL Up + 3/4 MIL Right
Settles back - 1/2 MIL high + 1/4 MIL Right
Good luck
I am still confused.
Are you asking about movement -
Prior to the shot?
During recoil?
Once the gun settles back after recoil?
Me at 825 the other day - prone with a bi pod and a rear bag on a sloped (to my left), rutted and rocky skid trail
Prior to - none -> less than 1/10 MIL
During recoil - 3/4 MIL Up + 3/4 MIL Right
Settles back - 1/2 MIL high + 1/4 MIL Right
Good luck
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's say you are using a bolt action rifle with a bipod on a wooden table in the sitting position. At 100 yards how many inches away from the target is it normal for the reticle to drift? I know you can never hold the rifle perfectly still like a vise but should you be able to keep it within an area of 1 MOA, 2 MOA, etc? </div></div>Drift prior to squeezing the trigger? 1/4 to 1/2" if the rest is proper and you are not contorted. Most new shooters never take the time to find NPA in all 3 positions. They wonder why the sights wobble all around the target instead of settling on the bulls eye. Practice with different body positions with your finger off the trigger until you find the correct position that allows you to relax with the sights on target. Next, practice one shot and see where the sights are after the shot. Where the barrel lands after recoil is your true NPA. Adjust your body so the sights settle on target after each shot. To do that, you need to get up and move your body, not just twist to move the barrel. If the barrel is too the right of target, get up and rotate left, etc. Once you master that, your groups will shrink a lot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dan46n2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's say you are using a bolt action rifle with a bipod on a wooden table in the sitting position. At 100 yards how many inches away from the target is it normal for the reticle to drift? I know you can never hold the rifle perfectly still like a vise but should you be able to keep it within an area of 1 MOA, 2 MOA, etc? </div></div>Drift prior to squeezing the trigger? 1/4 to 1/2" if the rest is proper and you are not contorted. Most new shooters never take the time to find NPA in all 3 positions. They wonder why the sights wobble all around the target instead of settling on the bulls eye. Practice with different body positions with your finger off the trigger until you find the correct position that allows you to relax with the sights on target. Next, practice one shot and see where the sights are after the shot. Where the barrel lands after recoil is your true NPA. Adjust your body so the sights settle on target after each shot. To do that, you need to get up and move your body, not just twist to move the barrel. If the barrel is too the right of target, get up and rotate left, etc. Once you master that, your groups will shrink a lot.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
The OP mentioned shooting from a wooden bench.
The range I shoot at has concrete benches on concrete legs. It also has wooden benches with robust angle iron legs.
Guess which one has less wobble area...
Prone w/sling my wobble area is around 0.75 MOA. I would say the wooden bench might not provide the support you need.
The OP mentioned shooting from a wooden bench.
The range I shoot at has concrete benches on concrete legs. It also has wooden benches with robust angle iron legs.
Guess which one has less wobble area...
Prone w/sling my wobble area is around 0.75 MOA. I would say the wooden bench might not provide the support you need.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
OP,
Here's what's it's all about: sight alignment and trigger control are supported by a steady position. There are three elements to a steady position: bone/artificial support, muscular relaxation, and natural point of aim. There are five factors to a solid position, butt-to-shoulder, stockweld (rest the full weight of the head on the comb), grip, non-firing hand, and elbows. The factors describe the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground. Unless these elements and factors are properly considered to assure a consistent angle/arc effect, that's to say a consistent relationship between the bore at rest and the bore at bullet exit, you will not hit where aimed. Greater consistency will get better hits. And, if you can get your position consistent to a molecular level from shot to shot, you can expect to hit exactly where aimed, meaning zero displacement from point of aim and point of impact. The key to consistency is muscular relaxation. When you are relaxed you are comfortable. I know, it's hard to imagine how comfort has a role in good shooting. Most folks will simply muscle or force a relationship between the sight and target, using even more muscle to maintain the relationship. They think this work is what will help them get the job done. They perceive this is the way "snipers" do it, through brute strength and will, but, they're wrong.
To get a good start on a proper position, just shoulder the rifle without any consideration for the target. This is essential, as, if you are thinking about the target, letting it distract you, you will unconsciously steer the sight to the target using muscle. This is a bad start, precluding a good result. Once shouldered and sight alignment established, then adjust the NPA to get the hold you are seeking. Now, think about the whole position as you will need to rebuild it exactly for every shot. That's about all there is to it. Also, for best results from a bench, use a sandbag support with the non-firing hand placed between the handguard and bag. Use only enough grip there to control the rifle. Do not use a rear bag. And, when shouldering remember to bring the butt to the head not the head to the butt. There are reasons for doing all this stuff in the way I've instructed, but for now just try it out.
BTW, if you cannot rest the full weight of your head on the comb to get a sight picture where the eyeball is square to the eyepiece, that's to say if you find yourself lifting your cheek somewhat, you will need to stop everything and build up the comb with something expedient. This is important. If you do not have a good chipmunk cheek you will not get good results for a multitude of reason.
One more thing, wobble is not a the problem as most imagine it is. The important thing is to adjust NPA. This will minimize wobble. From there, trigger control can be manipulated to sync with wobble for a good hit. Also, since wobble error is not angular as the error from sight misalignment, it's not as important to make it perfect. Only in the context of target shooting for a high X count is minimizing wobble particularly interesting.
OP,
Here's what's it's all about: sight alignment and trigger control are supported by a steady position. There are three elements to a steady position: bone/artificial support, muscular relaxation, and natural point of aim. There are five factors to a solid position, butt-to-shoulder, stockweld (rest the full weight of the head on the comb), grip, non-firing hand, and elbows. The factors describe the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground. Unless these elements and factors are properly considered to assure a consistent angle/arc effect, that's to say a consistent relationship between the bore at rest and the bore at bullet exit, you will not hit where aimed. Greater consistency will get better hits. And, if you can get your position consistent to a molecular level from shot to shot, you can expect to hit exactly where aimed, meaning zero displacement from point of aim and point of impact. The key to consistency is muscular relaxation. When you are relaxed you are comfortable. I know, it's hard to imagine how comfort has a role in good shooting. Most folks will simply muscle or force a relationship between the sight and target, using even more muscle to maintain the relationship. They think this work is what will help them get the job done. They perceive this is the way "snipers" do it, through brute strength and will, but, they're wrong.
To get a good start on a proper position, just shoulder the rifle without any consideration for the target. This is essential, as, if you are thinking about the target, letting it distract you, you will unconsciously steer the sight to the target using muscle. This is a bad start, precluding a good result. Once shouldered and sight alignment established, then adjust the NPA to get the hold you are seeking. Now, think about the whole position as you will need to rebuild it exactly for every shot. That's about all there is to it. Also, for best results from a bench, use a sandbag support with the non-firing hand placed between the handguard and bag. Use only enough grip there to control the rifle. Do not use a rear bag. And, when shouldering remember to bring the butt to the head not the head to the butt. There are reasons for doing all this stuff in the way I've instructed, but for now just try it out.
BTW, if you cannot rest the full weight of your head on the comb to get a sight picture where the eyeball is square to the eyepiece, that's to say if you find yourself lifting your cheek somewhat, you will need to stop everything and build up the comb with something expedient. This is important. If you do not have a good chipmunk cheek you will not get good results for a multitude of reason.
One more thing, wobble is not a the problem as most imagine it is. The important thing is to adjust NPA. This will minimize wobble. From there, trigger control can be manipulated to sync with wobble for a good hit. Also, since wobble error is not angular as the error from sight misalignment, it's not as important to make it perfect. Only in the context of target shooting for a high X count is minimizing wobble particularly interesting.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
I have long believed that I understood the process, but Charles 'exposition brought new understanding about positional shooting and the principles underlying a good position. I am enlightened, thank you Charles.
Greg
I have long believed that I understood the process, but Charles 'exposition brought new understanding about positional shooting and the principles underlying a good position. I am enlightened, thank you Charles.
Greg
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
Sterling Shooter,
Would you explain why not using a rear bag while on the bench is helpful.
Thanks.
Sterling Shooter,
Would you explain why not using a rear bag while on the bench is helpful.
Thanks.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
The bag on the bench will lead you bring the head to the gun rather than the gun to the head. You may end up with a lower gun position than appropriate. Without a rear bag, when the gun is shouldered properly, the butt will be in the pocket formed in the shoulder; and, the handguard height that will allow for the desired hold can be created with the sandbags. Remember, in the bench position, I suggested the non-firing hand is between the handguard and the sandbag, not at the butt of the gun. If the non-firing hand were at the butt, the bag would perhaps be useful.
The bag on the bench will lead you bring the head to the gun rather than the gun to the head. You may end up with a lower gun position than appropriate. Without a rear bag, when the gun is shouldered properly, the butt will be in the pocket formed in the shoulder; and, the handguard height that will allow for the desired hold can be created with the sandbags. Remember, in the bench position, I suggested the non-firing hand is between the handguard and the sandbag, not at the butt of the gun. If the non-firing hand were at the butt, the bag would perhaps be useful.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
After the shot is made, is the rifle suppose to stay on target? I have been shooting off the bench with a bag in front and left hand supporting the rear of the rifle. I notice that the rifle jumps quite a bit and my shot tends to walk from shot to shot sideways. sorry if this is a hijack. Just trying to learn from the experts.
After the shot is made, is the rifle suppose to stay on target? I have been shooting off the bench with a bag in front and left hand supporting the rear of the rifle. I notice that the rifle jumps quite a bit and my shot tends to walk from shot to shot sideways. sorry if this is a hijack. Just trying to learn from the experts.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
The forces of recoil can be mitigated but not stopped. It is the same as shooting a pistol - shot goes off, the shooter can track the front sight / reticle through its arc during recoil and watch it settle back on target, bang - next shot.
From prone and using free recoil - where NPA = POA and where the rifle is not 'held' in place by tension, but is instead aligned by position only, it is unlikely it will settle back to the nat's ass - but it should be very close. Add in a less than optimum surface, rest, or position the variance will grow.
When you shoot you should be able to do one of two things consistently - either watch the reticle through its arc and have it settle very near POA or watch your round impact the target through the optic.
Getting off the bench and down into prone will help.
Good luck
The forces of recoil can be mitigated but not stopped. It is the same as shooting a pistol - shot goes off, the shooter can track the front sight / reticle through its arc during recoil and watch it settle back on target, bang - next shot.
From prone and using free recoil - where NPA = POA and where the rifle is not 'held' in place by tension, but is instead aligned by position only, it is unlikely it will settle back to the nat's ass - but it should be very close. Add in a less than optimum surface, rest, or position the variance will grow.
When you shoot you should be able to do one of two things consistently - either watch the reticle through its arc and have it settle very near POA or watch your round impact the target through the optic.
Getting off the bench and down into prone will help.
Good luck
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
I'm newer to precision shooting and I have taken a precision class where I learned the importance of NPA. One thing we were told is that there will always be some movement.
That being said, could part of this problem be due to zoom setting on scope? Obviously the movement is exacerbated with the zoom is too high. Right?
I'm newer to precision shooting and I have taken a precision class where I learned the importance of NPA. One thing we were told is that there will always be some movement.
That being said, could part of this problem be due to zoom setting on scope? Obviously the movement is exacerbated with the zoom is too high. Right?
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
The scope is a distraction to good shooting, for a multitude of reasons, the perception of wobble is just one of them. Regarding movement, the idea is to control it, making it consistent. More consistency is possible with NPA adjusted properly.
The scope is a distraction to good shooting, for a multitude of reasons, the perception of wobble is just one of them. Regarding movement, the idea is to control it, making it consistent. More consistency is possible with NPA adjusted properly.
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
i can not seam to hold steady sitting at a table off a bipod. i to lay down to get a solid position
i can not seam to hold steady sitting at a table off a bipod. i to lay down to get a solid position
Re: How Much Movement Is Normal?
Charles, thank you for the reminder of the chipmunk cheek. I have been shooting well lately, but something has been missing and I think it has been full relaxation of the head onto the stock.
No new lesson, just a good solid reminder of how easy the fundamnetals are...............to forget and overlook if the closest to perfect practice isn't practiced every shot
Charles, thank you for the reminder of the chipmunk cheek. I have been shooting well lately, but something has been missing and I think it has been full relaxation of the head onto the stock.
No new lesson, just a good solid reminder of how easy the fundamnetals are...............to forget and overlook if the closest to perfect practice isn't practiced every shot
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