How still is your sight picture?

[darth_ritis]

I struggle to get the rifle perfectly still, which seems to be a mental block against allowing the trigger to surprise me. My teen years of .22LR plinking trained me to time the trigger with the movement of the sight picture, and I'm struggling to reverse that and get good groups @ 100-300 yards using a scope. The sight picture can sometimes have 1MOA of movement or more, no matter how relaxed I try to be.

At my range, there are plenty of sandbags and concrete benches. I usually put the bipod on top of a sandbag, and use a sand sock for the rifle butt. I load the bipod with my shoulder a bit, squeeze the sand sock, and get on sight. My shooting hand not yet on the rifle. The sight picture moves a bit with my natural body motions. When I gently put my thumb on the rifle and my finger on the trigger, the sight picture moves a bit more. At this point, .25 MOA is out of the question, except for pure luck. What else can I try? I want to be able to shoot precisely in the field and not be dependent on some bench rest / lead sled setup.

When you are "on sight" and ready, is your sight picture perfectly still?

 

[bogeybrown]

Prone, supported with a rear bag, yeah my sight picture is steady. That does NOT mean I'm shooting ".5 MOA all day long" by any means, but if you're getting really exaggerated movement in your sight picture with a loaded bipod and rear bag then it sounds as though there's an issue with your overall position. I think Lowlight had some videos of building the optimum prone position, but I can't remember where to find them.

 

[darth_ritis]

Thanks Bogey. That makes sense.

By the way, this is seated bench, not prone. I have issues getting comfortable with prone - neck pain, collarbone pain & bruising from recoil - so I've been doing most of my practice using the range benches. I should probably watch those videos and then do more prone practice with the .22s and see if I can figure out that position better.

...if you're getting really exaggerated movement in your sight picture...

I guess I don't know what's normal for most people. Would 1MOA of movement be 'really exaggerated'? By 1MOA I mean the crosshair is moving around within what looks like a (roughly) 3" diameter area around the bullseye at 300 yards. I'm inclined to think it's not a lot of movement, but it is enough to make it very difficult to judge the full accuracy of the rifle and ammo, and if others are seeing a perfectly still sight picture at longer distances then I must have a problem somewhere.

 

[threetrees]

at 100m, i tend to use a sticker with a diameter of 1cm as target. i put the crosshair on the sticker and don't see the crosshair/target moving around.

 

[ShtrRdy]

For me, when shooting off a bench with a bipod and rear bag, my scope is very steady. I rest my elbows on the bench.

When I shoot prone, that's a different story. I get about 0.75 moa of movement with sometimes more. I have a little tremor that I can't seem to get rid of. I'm in my late 50's so that might be it. - Todd

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I struggle to get the rifle perfectly still, which seems to be a mental block against allowing the trigger to surprise me. My teen years of .22LR plinking trained me to time the trigger with the movement of the sight picture, and I'm struggling to reverse that and get good groups @ 100-300 yards using a scope. The sight picture can sometimes have 1MOA of movement or more, no matter how relaxed I try to be.

At my range, there are plenty of sandbags and concrete benches. I usually put the bipod on top of a sandbag, and use a sand sock for the rifle butt. I load the bipod with my shoulder a bit, squeeze the sand sock, and get on sight. My shooting hand not yet on the rifle. The sight picture moves a bit with my natural body motions. When I gently put my thumb on the rifle and my finger on the trigger, the sight picture moves a bit more. At this point, .25 MOA is out of the question, except for pure luck. What else can I try? I want to be able to shoot precisely in the field and not be dependent on some bench rest / lead sled setup.

When you are "on sight" and ready, is your sight picture perfectly still?

Your use of the word "struggle" implies you are using muscle to maintain the target/reticle relationship, likely from having steered the rifle to the target with muscle. You must shoulder the rifle without consideration for the target. That's to say, shoulder the rifle, cognizant of the five factors of a steady position but without attempting to place sight on target. The rifle should point where it is pointing naturally. Then, upon recognition of natural point of aim from evidence of muscular relaxation, where bone and artificial support, rather than muscle, are supporting the rifle, you will adjust the natural point of aim by moving your whole body, rather than steering with muscle, to get the desired sight picture. Follow this process for best results:

1. Shoulder rifle and align eyepiece to eyeball.
2. Adjust NPA for desired sight picture.
3. Concentrate on reticle.
4. Pull trigger SMOOTHLY.
5. Follow through.

Dry firing and calling shots will help you understand if you are pulling the trigger without moving the rifle. Live firing with call/strike corollary analysis will reveal your success with NPA adjustment.

BTW, in a prone position, shooting with sling and irons, I do not perceive wobble. Using a scope with sling support in prone position I can hold within a MOA X-ring, sometimes better when I focus on NPA and proper adjustment of it. Still, the muscles which are causing wobble are sometimes difficult to discern.

One more thing, wobble is not angular error as is sight misalignment. So, while a concern for the best results, the error from wobble does not increase with distance as does inconsistent sight alignment.

 

[wilecoyote]

.... Using a scope with sling support in prone position I can hold within a MOA X-ring, sometimes better when I focus on NPA and proper adjustment of it....

SS,
I'm quite interested about this_ Having I never tried that, could you specify here something more about PRONE w.support SLING & SCOPE, or if that could substantially differ from the traditional way w.irons, or about some diff. position settings, w.SL&SCOPE ?
Any info will be welcomed _

 

[coues7]

+1 on what sterling shooter said

 

[Sterling Shooter]

SS,
I'm quite interested about this_ Having I never tried that, could you specify here something more about PRONE w.support SLING & SCOPE, or if that could substantially differ from the traditional way w.irons, or about some diff. position settings, w.SL&SCOPE ?
Any info will be welcomed _

I shoot NRA LR, match and any/any divisions, as well as Service Rifle division. These matches are all shot with sling support. I do not perceive I build a position differently for shooting with a scope sight from shooting with irons. I also don't perceive that the scope is any advantage for this sort of shooting except for a better understanding for being on the correct target.

 

[wilecoyote]

...received
(SS,
thank you very much about the answer!)

 

[ksthomas]

Wilecoyote,

If you want to get the full run down on this, I suggest the book, "Long Range and Prone Shooting" by Nancy Tompkins. Answers all of the things which have been discussed thus far, and many other things which haven't been raised here. She's one of the best in the business, hands down.

 

[wilecoyote]

Wilecoyote,

If you want to get the full run down on this, I suggest the book, "Long Range and Prone Shooting" by Nancy Tompkins. Answers all of the things which have been discussed thus far, and many other things which haven't been raised here. She's one of the best in the business, hands down.

....received and copied !
Thanks again KS,
and not for this only_

 

[ksthomas]

Let me know if you need contact info, she does have a website and you can order from there. Shipping could be a bit steep, but I'm sure you're already familiar with that! Great info about every aspect of championship competition on a national and international level, from one of our finest shooters. And a wonderfully sweet person to boot.

 

[Bradu]

I would say that with a bipod and rear bag I probably move 2 moa. For the last few years I been dealing with my hands shaking just bad enough that it makes some things very annoying to do.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I would say that with a bipod and rear bag I probably move 2 moa. For the last few years I been dealing with my hands shaking just bad enough that it makes some things very annoying to do.

Right now it appears you are using the bipod and rear bag as substitutes for marksmanship rather than as aids to marksmanship. Using your artificial supports correctly you will have muscular relaxation. What's happening is the rifle at rest in the supports is not on target and you are using muscle to steer the rifle to target instead of properly making adjustments to the supports and moving the whole body to get the desired sight picture. I'd suggest you abandon the artificial supports and build the position with bone alone. Using bone alone will increase your sense of muscular relaxation, when bone is indeed supporting the position, as well as give you a better understanding for having properly adjusted natural point of aim.

 

[diverdon]

Many valid points above--here is one more to consider.

Do you shoot pistol? I have seen people try to use the same grip they use to hold a hand gun with a rifle, and that is not what you need. Your trigger hand should not provide support for the rifle or absorb recoil. It must be free from tension. Let me try to describe how to build a proper grip.

In your living room when you are dry firing--

Just sit in a chair and put hold the rifle with your left hand on the forestock. The but stock can rest on your thigh. Relax your right hand, place only the trigger finger onto the trigger. Then curl the trigger hand so the thumb and other fingers lightly contact the stock. The palm of your hand should not be touching the stock. Your hand remains free form stress and tension.

Try to replicate this hand position at the range.

 

[Graham]

How still is your sight picture?

Right now it appears you are using the bipod and rear bag as substitutes for marksmanship rather than as aids to marksmanship. Using your artificial supports correctly you will have muscular relaxation. What's happening is the rifle at rest in the supports is not on target and you are using muscle to steer the rifle to target instead of properly making adjustments to the supports and moving the whole body to get the desired sight picture.

I agree with this assessment.

I disagree with the solution, though, unless you have a spare three months of range time to learn a new discipline.

 

[JeffinTX]

I struggle to get the rifle perfectly still, which seems to be a mental block against allowing the trigger to surprise me. My teen years of .22LR plinking trained me to time the trigger with the movement of the sight picture, and I'm struggling to reverse that and get good groups @ 100-300 yards using a scope. The sight picture can sometimes have 1MOA of movement or more, no matter how relaxed I try to be.

At my range, there are plenty of sandbags and concrete benches. I usually put the bipod on top of a sandbag, and use a sand sock for the rifle butt. I load the bipod with my shoulder a bit, squeeze the sand sock, and get on sight. My shooting hand not yet on the rifle. The sight picture moves a bit with my natural body motions. When I gently put my thumb on the rifle and my finger on the trigger, the sight picture moves a bit more. At this point, .25 MOA is out of the question, except for pure luck. What else can I try? I want to be able to shoot precisely in the field and not be dependent on some bench rest / lead sled setup.

To the OP: why do you put the bipod on sandbags instead of the firm flat concrete bench surface? I think you'd do better if you ditch that, or take the bipod off and rest the forearm stock on the bags. There will always be some transmitted pulse movement to the rifle, even with a full on front and rear benchrests, thats why the BR guys shoot "free recoil" instead of shouldering the gun. Bi-pod shooting is different from BR shooting, and you do have to shoulder the gun. You do have to accept a certain wobble depending on the position you're in a execute the shot. However,
Getting proper setup, such as the height of the bipod, height of the cheekpiece, height of the scope rings or sights, proper scope/rear sight eye relief, buttstock length of pull, etc should all serve to put your head properly behind the scope without neck strain. Also, consistent cheek pressure on the stock, right elbow placement, etc are subtleties that will cause those "flyers" if you are not aware of it. I've found the setup of the rifle stock and sights to be very different sitting at the bench compared to prone. SS is correct in the basics of riflery is present, even in semi-supported positions like a bipod. (e.g. sight alignment, breathing, trigger control) If you want to shoot better, you have to be brutally critical of what you're doing, whether its right or wrong. Dismissing bad shots as "flyers" won't stop you from shooting a bad shot again, but critically analyzing what really happened will. (assuming you're using quality ammo and firearm) Keeping your mind open to ideas is a great first step!

 

[darth_ritis]

To the OP: why do you put the bipod on sandbags instead of the firm flat concrete bench surface? I think you'd do better if you ditch that, or take the bipod off and rest the forearm stock on the bags.

This gives the bipod feet something to sink into, so they stay in place better. It also helps absorb some recoil and reduce the amount of "jump" a little bit. This has been working much better for me than having the bipod against the hard concrete bench.

Stock on sandbags has been a bit more accurate in all the times I've shot that way, but I would like to keep things consistent and I'm not likely to carry sandbags around in the field. The bipod is likely a permanent part of my setup, unless my neck pain ends up preventing me from shooting prone as often as I (ideally) should.

 

[darth_ritis]

Your use of the word "struggle" implies you are using muscle to maintain the target/reticle relationship

That could be the case. It certainly was when I started, but I think I've made great strides there and now hardly "muscle" the rifle at all.

My intent was that I struggle to reach perfection.

I can set up the rifle on the bipod and sand bag and be right on target, hardly any movement except what's transmitted from my hand through the sand bag. Then, when shouldering the rifle, loading the bipod a bit, and putting my trigger hand on the rifle - keeping the reticle right on target - there is now just enough more movement to convince me that I'll never make .5" MOA groups except by luck. (I think the rifle could be that accurate, if only the meat puppet would stop messing it up!) I'm not touching the rifle that much, trigger hand/arm is very relaxed, breathing is as still as possible, etc. Squeezing the sand bag too tightly? Too heavy of trigger pull? Developing a palsy of some kind? ;-)

I've been thinking about getting into reloading, but working through loads seems to require great confidence in results variations being purely ammo-related. I'm not sure I'll ever be steady enough to find the best load for my rifle.

 

[Bradu]

Right now it appears you are using the bipod and rear bag as substitutes for marksmanship rather than as aids to marksmanship. Using your artificial supports correctly you will have muscular relaxation. What's happening is the rifle at rest in the supports is not on target and you are using muscle to steer the rifle to target instead of properly making adjustments to the supports and moving the whole body to get the desired sight picture. I'd suggest you abandon the artificial supports and build the position with bone alone. Using bone alone will increase your sense of muscular relaxation, when bone is indeed supporting the position, as well as give you a better understanding for having properly adjusted natural point of aim.

While I don't disagree that my form could use some work, the thing is my hands shake causing quite a bit of the problem. I have issues with my hands shaking doing other activities, not just shooting.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

That could be the case. It certainly was when I started, but I think I've made great strides there and now hardly "muscle" the rifle at all.

My intent was that I struggle to reach perfection.

I can set up the rifle on the bipod and sand bag and be right on target, hardly any movement except what's transmitted from my hand through the sand bag. Then, when shouldering the rifle, loading the bipod a bit, and putting my trigger hand on the rifle - keeping the reticle right on target - there is now just enough more movement to convince me that I'll never make .5" MOA groups except by luck. (I think the rifle could be that accurate, if only the meat puppet would stop messing it up!) I'm not touching the rifle that much, trigger hand/arm is very relaxed, breathing is as still as possible, etc. Squeezing the sand bag too tightly? Too heavy of trigger pull? Developing a palsy of some kind? ;-)

I've been thinking about getting into reloading, but working through loads seems to require great confidence in results variations being purely ammo-related. I'm not sure I'll ever be steady enough to find the best load for my rifle.

You are attempting to place the reticle on the target while shouldering the rifle. Don't do that. Forget the target. Just shoulder the rifle, and after setting elbows, non-firing hand, grip, butt to shoulder, and stock weld, allowing the rifle point where ever natural, then adjust NPA to get desired sight picture. Attempting to get a sight picture while shouldering the rifle, as you appear to be doing, will thwart adjustment of NPA since getting NPA will pull you off the target . Your brain does not want to pull you off the target, and thus you never realize your NPA or proper adjustment of it.

No need to despair. Just refrain from looking at the target as you build your position. When you do look through your scope, only after relaxing into the completed position, and find the reticle is on something other than the target, that's when you adjust the whole body to get the desired sight picture. It's easy. You can do it.

Appraisal of hand loads is another topic but once you can support sight alignment and trigger control from a steady position you'll understand the hand load is mostly appraisable with a chronograph which can calculate SD and ES. You'll come to know shots off call are about not having ehe correct sight adjustment for the effects of gravity, drag, wind, and weather.

 

[Chadwin]

It doesn't really move at all. I shoot a 5R 24 inch 308 with a bipod and cheap Winchester rear rest. I make an L-shape with my non-trigger hand (4 fingers extended and together, thumb 90 degrees to them) and place it on the front of the rest (and on the ground) to make fine adjustments.

from prone of course