How to get more shoulder bump... Cam-over already maxed!

[Sgt_Jamez]

Hello all. I'm forming 20 VT brass from LC233 brass. My reading shows that I should be getting a headspace somewhere near 1.080". But with my press at max cam-over, the best I can do is 1.088". Aside from machining the bottom of the dies or the top of the shell holder, is there something else I can do to get a headspace closer to the nominal value using the normal die setting of shell holder contact plus 1/4 turn? Thanks!

Also, I'm trying to hone down a shell holder using a sheet of glass and 500 grit sandpaper. SLOW!!!

 

[andydrose72]

I've never used them but maybe the Redding competition shell holders would help?

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

Hehe... funny you should mention that. I just received mine today. They work in the opposite direction. They give less and less shoulder bump. They take a standard shelf depth of .125" and .002" up to .010". Meaning you end up with a shelf depth of .135" using the .010" shell holder. I didn't understand that when I bought them. Which is why I posted my question after my bungling of the competition shell holder acquisition.

 

[andydrose72]

Good to know, I was curious if the worked both ways or only one.

 

[me124704]

Hello all. I'm forming 20 VT brass from LC233 brass. My reading shows that I should be getting a headspace somewhere near 1.080". But with my press at max cam-over, the best I can do is 1.088". Aside from machining the bottom of the dies or the top of the shell holder, is there something else I can do to get a headspace closer to the nominal value using the normal die setting of shell holder contact plus 1/4 turn? Thanks!

Also, I'm trying to hone down a shell holder using a sheet of glass and 500 grit sandpaper. SLOW!!!

I have used the sandpaper method for this also and reduced the thickness of the shellholder a couple of thousandths. If I needed that much, I think I would machine the bottom of the die.

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

Sadly I don't have access to a lathe or mill. So it's sandpaper for days I guess.

 

[HAZORD]

Every gunsmith in you town will have a lathe. Its a 5 minute job.

 

[bigedp51]

Just keep lapping the top of the shell holder, wet the glass to get the wet and dry sandpaper to adhere to the glass. Then use oil on the sandpaper, this will allow the shell holder to "float" on a film of oil as you do the lapping. Rotate the shell holder often and lap in a figure eight pattern.

And remember a shell holder is cheaper than the reloading die and there is a reason why they want you to make hard contact with the shell holder.

 

[Pinecone]

You can try more than 1/4 turn of cam over. My Redding body die needs more like 1/2 to bump .223 brass to fit a case gauge (used in multiple rifles, so size to SAAMI).

 

[Uncontrolled Copy]

A simple machine shop with a surface grinder can very precisely make the height of your shell holder anything you want in about 15 minutes or less.

 

[milo 2.0]

I'd take it off the die, I've misplaced shellholders, but never a die.

 

[flashhole]

You can put a shim between the shelholder rest and bottom of the case, directly under the case. I have a set of mechanics feeler gages I've had since cars had points that you had to gap. They work great. Aluminum foil will do the same thing if you figure out how many folds it needs. Cheap and renewable fix.

 

[bigedp51]

Sgt_Jamez

You are case forming using .223 brass and a lot of your problem is brass spring back, a second problem your going to have are thick case necks from using .223 brass.

If you shorten the die then after the brass has be shot and fireformed you will always have an air gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. When this happens you are going to have inconsistent shoulder bump and have cases with varying cartridge headspace length.

Keep lapping your shell holder until you get the cartridge headspace length you want with the die making hard contact with the shell holder and the press reaching camover. AFTER the cases are fireformed you can try a standard shell holder or the competition shell holders to get the proper shoulder bump with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. Again there is a very good reason the die instructions tell you to adjust the press to camover and that is consistent shoulder location.

A much simple solution that avoids forming problems and having thicker shoulders and necks that require neck turning or reaming is to buy .221 Fireball brass.

Remington Reloading Brass 221 Remington Fireball

If you are going to keep using your LC 5.56 brass then remember to pause for three seconds after the press reaches camover before raising the press handle. Then rotate the brass 180 and size again waiting the three seconds again, this reduces brass spring back and the cases will have shorter and more consistent cartridge headspace length.

DO NOT remove any material from the bottom of your die, the die length was designed for resizing "NORMAL" fired cases with brass spring back computed in. The brass spring back varies between brands of cases, annealing and how many times the case has been fired. Again "DO NOT" take any drastic steps with your die length until you start dealing with "NORMAL" length cases and finding out if forming from .221 Fireball cases are still to long. Think about it, is your die really too long or do you just have hard thick brass that doesn't like changing size.

Now continue to lap your shell holder and resize the cases "PAUSING" for three seconds, rotating 180 and resizing again and pausing again at cam over and then checking your cartridge headspace length.

Below, a Redding competition shell holder on the left and a standard length shell holder on the right. The Redding shell holder pictured is .004 taller than the standard shell holder and all my resized cases reach camover, and this is done for consistency.

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

I'll definitely have to take it to be resurfaced. I did a test last night and it took a full turn and a quarter to get to 1.088" and my target is 1.080". That 1.25 turn into the press puts me at max cam-over. I have the numbers in the garage, but the normal touching plus a quarter turn only got me to like 1.124" (original post wrongly stated 1.099""

The odd thing here is that this isn't just one die. Since I'm forming 223 into 20 Vartarg, I'm using a series of dies. They are all producing results that are far off from what my research and conversations with other Vartarg shooters indicate the results should be.

 

[flashhole]

Annealing would help with spring back. I reform a lot of 223 into 221 Fireball and the first thing I do is anneal the cases. I prefer to use military brass because of the thicker web. This is what I do.


I finally got around to it - 223 to 221 Fireball (pic heavy) - Shooters Forum

 

[bigedp51]

Sgt_Jamez

You are using Lake City brass and it is harder than commercial brass and is going to spring back MORE. On top of this I'm guessing its once fired brass LC brass that was fired in a "LARGER" and "LONGER" military chamber. So your fighting hard brass that has been fireformed in another much larger chamber.

A commercial .221 Fireball case will spring back much less when resized and you should have some of these cases to use as a baseline against the 5.56 LC cases. And depending on how you acquired these 5.56 cases you will also have a case consistency problem that will effect your accuracy with the Lake City cases. Meaning they are great cases for your AR15 rifle but a poor choice for a precision rifle unless they are all from the same lot.

For the last several weeks I have been loading once fired .223/5.56 brass that was fired by a large variety of AR15 rifles used by our local SWAT and Police. And I can tell you that your going to have a time getting uniformity with once fired Lake City brass and you are in for a lot of work ahead and .221 Fireball brass would be a lot simpler and less work.

 

[witchhunter]

I would have the die milled down, say .010 or .020. You can always adjust it up. I wouldn't mill the shellholder unless that is the only caliber that you load for. You will have to adjust all of the dies that use that shellholder now. As others have stated the taller shellholders will not help in your situation. Simple, grind it down some. A lot of people do not understand how to set up sizing dies. the cam-over thing is way over rated, you should adjust them to size cases to fit your chamber, all chambers are not the same size. Good luck with your vartag.

 

[lightman]

The foil or some shim stock under the case should help. I once did the shellholder and I spray painted it to separate it from my others. My thoughts were the shellholder was cheaper that the die.

 

[flashhole]

You can also cut beer cans with a pair of scissors to make shims.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

It has been some time now that I made a fixture for my surface grinder to grind shell holders, I too subscribe to the idea that shell holders are cheaper than dies, I just mark them with an electric pencil as to size -.001 -.002 etc.

I am also a believer that there should be some cam over to achieve the most consistent shoulder bump

For those that fool around with beer cans and such, good luck, too fiddlesome for me.

Different brands of brass/times fired DO size differently and I shoot gas guns and bolt guns. Making up different sizes of shell holders has been the best solution for me.

I wonder if I should offer it as a service...

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

I have used both once fired and factory new LC brass and there's only .002" less headspace using the new brass (1.090" vs 1.088" with the new LC) . If I was only off by a few thou, I wouldn't sweat it. But the normal die setting of touching plus a quarter turn has my headspace at 1.124" instead of 1.080" A difference of .044"! I corrected my above post where I had stated my headspace was 1.099".

I know the 221 FB would probably be a better starting point, but lots of people are making 20 VT and aren't .044" out of spec. There has to be something mechanically wrong. No? I tried bigedp51's suggestion of a pause and resize. 2 seconds, 4 seconds, I even did a 10 count. Made no difference. At max camover, 1.25 turns in, with a 10 count, turning 180 degrees, and another 10 count, I still ended up at 1.088"

There's no way I should have to cam that hard to still be out of spec. And there's no way that with everything else being set up normally that I should be .044" long on headspace.

I've only been reloading since 2009, but there's got to be something wrong here. Beer cans and shaved shell holders are just fixing a symptom of something else being jacked up. I just don't think I am educated enough to spot what it is.

I sincerely appreciate all the advice you guys are putting into this!

 

[milo 2.0]

No one's mentioned it, but dies can be out of spec!

 

[George63]

if you have / are trying multiple 223 size dies I would grind the bottom of one - a light touch with a mini grinder and some checking/ measuring will do the job, not that tough

the set of redding shell holders will work very nice with a die that has been shortened .008

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

True, dies can be out of spec. And I am thinking to put a call in to Redding. But I am using multiple dies. Are they ALL out of spec? There's a 221 FB form die, a 20 VT FL die, and then a 3-die set. All Redding. I can't imagine that they are all wrong can they?

 

[Grand]

I used the side of the wheel on a bench grinder to take .002 of a Redding Shell Holder. Took about three minutes.

 

[milo 2.0]

True, dies can be out of spec. And I am thinking to put a call in to Redding. But I am using multiple dies. Are they ALL out of spec? There's a 221 FB form die, a 20 VT FL die, and then a 3-die set. All Redding. I can't imagine that they are all wrong can they?

No, one wouldn't think so.

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

Grand - if I only had to remove .002", I'd be all over it. But I'm .044" over my headspace target. I am assuming I'd need to take at least .040" off the shell holder correct? That seems very excessive and indicative of a larger problem.

I haven't mentioned it before, but the shell holder is a Redding #10 that seems to be in spec with a .125" shelf depth.

 

[OKbow87]

All of this talk about shimming the shellholder sounds like a great way to induce run out to your sized brass. There is a reason these pieces are precision ground. Take it to a gunsmith or a machine shop and have them take off the exact ammount of material that you want. Then you can set your die where you want, and you don't have to worry about whether or not your brass is sitting square in the holder like it is supposed to.

 

[George63]

But I'm .044" over my headspace target. I am assuming I'd need to take at least .040" off .

then it is obvious you have to take it off the die

 

[flashhole]

Did you try one of the re-formed cases in your gun? If it chambers properly you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Pinecone]

How have you determined you are at max cam over?

 

[milo 2.0]

How have you determined you are at max cam over?

Can't answer for the op, but I'd bet he's going off how much body weight he has to put into it! By the description of what he's been through, I can't believe he hasn't rolled some shoulders in his die.

 

[goose_boy]

Just because I haven't seen it mentioned, how about trying some civy brass through it? Surely you have a piece of un crimped rem or win brass around. Just for test purposes. I'm newer to reloading and know little about case forming, but if it were me I'd be sacrificing a cheap piece of brass just to rule out the possibility before grinding expensive dies. Also maybe small base/full length resizing the 5.56 brass first might help with springback?

ETA - maybe also try annealing the brass too. For a few pieces I hear a garage propane torch and a socket do the job nicely.

 

[Fuzzball]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Jamez: "But I'm .044" over my headspace target. I am assuming I'd need to take at least .040" off ."


First, there's no logic to fixing a shell holder to "fix" a defective die.

Secind, I can't imagine a sizer die being 44 thou too short; something is probably wrong with your measurements.

 

[Pinecone]

No, the die is .044" too LONG.

Too short is easy, Redding Comp shell holders.

 

[Pinecone]

Can't answer for the op, but I'd bet he's going off how much body weight he has to put into it! By the description of what he's been through, I can't believe he hasn't rolled some shoulders in his die.

Maybe. If so, then there is a problem with the die.

Some people seem to think the touching plus 1/4 turn is the max cam over.

 

[milo 2.0]

I can't believe he hasn't rolled some shoulders in his die.

Die's too long and I'm talking crunching cases. Wonder how far up my ass I had to reach for that one! Wow, it's a new day today.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Die's too long and I'm talking crunching cases. Wonder how far up my ass I had to reach for that one! Wow, it's a new day today.

Don't sweat it, I am just wondering what's really up with this problem, .040 is an awful lot to have to "adjust" a die, and not even possible to "adjust" a shell holder that much.

I wonder if somewhere there are some measurements that are off, chamber, die, case?

A few thou off of a shell holder here or there is nothing.

 

[thrusty]

Possibly a Die Shim kit will help...
Skip's die shim kit - (7/8-14) | Sinclair Intl

EDIT: Retracted for bad info - after reading more closely, I see you need to be closer, not further from the die.

 

[milo 2.0]

Possibly a Die Shim kit will help...
Skip's die shim kit - (7/8-14) | Sinclair Intl

This will make him farther of the mark!

 

[thrusty]

This will make him farther of the mark!

Thanks milo - stand corrected. Didn't read the OP very well.

 

[Red_SC]

Did you try one of the re-formed cases in your gun? If it chambers properly you have nothing to worry about.

That's my question- who cares what the book says if it chambers.