How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

[TresMon]

Hey,

I was curious if anybody has tried to work up a sub-moa load with 75 or heavier grain bullets?? I would like to try to work up a 1000yd. load with it since it acheives higher velocities, but wanted to see if anyone has gone before me first...

Thanks,
Tres

 

[memilanuk]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

23.5gr + a light crimp + 75-77gr mag length bullets makes a good mag fed load... works pretty decent out to 600. I've heard of people trying it behind long range bullets like the 75/80 AMAX, SMK, etc. but I don't know what kind of results they got.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I have a good load for 80 SMKs, but I'm away from my notes at the moment. Never been beyond 600 with it, though.

 

[Top Cat]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

TAC is consistent...not the best ES, but considering the convenience of smooth metering and low carbon deposits, it's not a bad choice.

TC

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

BR Shooters gave it a lot of use when it first came out, and I think they may still use it some. I'm thinking it may be a tad fast for 75's, etc. It should be perfect for 50-60gr bullets, though.

I found that R/S Big Game was a very accurate powder with HDY HPBT Match (Moly) at 26.5gr (C*), going well under 1/2MOA for 5 at 200 in a 24" 1:9" barrel which should be right on the edge of stability for that bullet.

Never shot it beyond 200 for score, and never clocked it.

Greg

 

[Kletzenklueffer]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I use it with 77gr Noslers and have had good performance inside 600 yards. It hasn't seemed too fast burning. I get 2785fps out of an 18" Noveske barreled AR with no pressure signs.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

For gas guns, I'd be using TAC too. I think slower powders and gas guns don't mix very well. The pressure curve delivers too much pressure at the port.

Greg

 

[TresMon]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?



Thanks, My "me-made" adjsutable gas block fixes ecsessive pressure and early bolt rotation...

EDDIENFL: I'd like to have that laod data if it's AR based

TCAT: what do you call bad ES #'s?

Thanks all.

 

[kirkhamg]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I recently tried TAC with 68 grain Hornady match, but had very poor results.
Also tried it with some cheap 55 grainers for plinking, - couldn't keep them down to minute of pie plate.

 

[Wil]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

What was your load dev method?

 

[kirkhamg]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

With the 55s I started at a little above mid book, 5 rounds each in .5 grain incriments to max. Seated per book value. - Sorry I don't have my data with me, but I will edit later when I have access to my notebook. The odd thing was none of the loads showed promise. Usually when I do load development, I select 2 or 3 powders that I have that are of the correct burn rate, load a few in .5 grain incriments, and in short order know which powder and approximate charge will show most promise. Then I fine tune with smaller incrimental steps and mess with length a little. It has always worked pretty slick in the past. This thing has me stumped for now though.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Try a light taper crimp.

Sounds nuts... I know you "don't crimp match bullets" but if you ever try pulling some 75gr BTHPs from Black Hills blue box ammo (loaded w/ TAC or something very close to it)... well if it ain't crimped, it's the next best thing?!?

Seriously. I had similar symptoms w/ the stuff behind a 75/77gr bullet... everything shot like a$$, from 23.0gr on up to... well, enough powder I was tearing up the extractor rim on the cases. Started using a light taper crimp, and it was like the bullets just sucked into a tight little group on the paper. Tweak the crimp until the groups don't get any smaller, then leave it alone and start cranking out ammo. Or else get a different powder. Your choice.

 

[kirkhamg]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Thanks for the reply.
Good point about the crimp.
The thing was none of the powders were working well, its just that TAC was a little worse than the others.
I've talked with a number of folks that swear by it (TAC) though. Thats what had me stumped. Shot some test loads through several different guns too. Burned up 100 bullets with various test loads. I was about to just forget about the 55 grainers, but maybe its worth one more try.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thanks, My "me-made" adjsutable gas block fixes ecsessive pressure and early bolt rotation...

EDDIENFL: I'd like to have that laod data if it's AR based

TCAT: what do you call bad ES #'s?

Thanks all. </div></div>

23.0, LC 05 cases, 205GMM, 80 SMK. I lost my chrono data in a computer crash, but I seem to recall the average was about 2650 with an ES of about 20FPS. Not the quickest, but accurate and easy to load.

Hope this helps.

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Tempted to try TAC for the bullet speed it offers. Bullet is SMK 77gr or Berger 80gr VLD. Any receipe for these?

Thanks.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

The Tac works good in milder temps. A load worked up at 70 degs might be over-pressured at 90 degs tho. Blown primers aren't fun.

I'm currently using it on the short-line ammo but will put it away when the temps are regularly in the 80's here.

Shoots good until the temps get higher. I shoot 77's and 80's with it. Good velocities. Just temp sensisitive.

 

[MitchInOR]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I use 24.2 grains of Tac, 77 SMK, LC brass and 41 primers.

My barrel has a Compass Lake match chamber and this is getting a little hot. Shows some occasional ejector swipe.

I originally started out with a lower charge with this rifle and moved on to other powders as I thought the accuracy could be better. Later switched back to 24.0 grains of Tac. Bumped it up to 24.2 for a little more velocity and it seemed to tighten up.

Last I checked I was getting a little over 1 inch at 200 yards. The last time I was shooting this gun I was hitting steel at 1000 yards consistently.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Black Hills loads TAC for the 77 grain serivce rifle loads and it is very consistant and holds tight.

 

[discrota]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I run 24.3g Tac, Winchester brass 450 primers and a 77 Smk suppressed in my 18" Noveske SPR. Any hotter and brass life is reduced. Runs about 2700 fps, sub moa 10 shot groups, SD in the 20's usually.

I also shoot a 70 Berger VLD with 25g Tac, same primer and brass through a Remington 700 XCR Compact Tactical wearing the same AAC SPR/M4. That load runs 2910 fps, with 1/2 moa accuracy.

I find Tac to be a great powder for 223, it meters great, burns super clean, works well in the 60-80g pill range and is cheaper than other powders to boot!

 

[esorensen]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I run the same load as above, with the exception of a Hornady 75 BTHP. It shoots sub 1/2 MOA, and SD is in the teens. Speed is 2625 from a 16" Lilja.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

A couple years back, I asked Frank White at CLE to chamber an 18" 1x7.7 full heavy fluted Krieger barrel specifically for 5.56MM 77gr. SMK based BH MK262 or similar 5.56MM 77gr. SMK handload. After I received the barrel, I worked up 5.56MM pressure loads using: Varget, TAC, RL15, AA2520, N540, H335, etc. TAC proved best at 100yds. then push it out as far as I could which was 750yds. Both grouped about the same until the wind picked up a bit then the 80gr. VLD appeared more forgiving. The barrel did not like 80gr. JLKs at all. IMO, barrels are like women; no two are the same. You just have to go shoot groups with different components until you find what yours likes. Groups below fired with M4-2000 suppressor & 24X Leupold off Tacoma pickup truck tool box. I also wanted to give TAC a quick thermal stability field test best I could. So I fired 4 rounds of each group in the cool of the morning then came back when the mirage had died to fire the last round of each group/type (circled) in much warmer ambient temperature. Elevation was not changed but I did have to compensate for wind on the last shot of each group. Morning shots were sent in virtual trigger pull conditions; no mirage/no wind. I probably had 30-40 degrees difference but groups remained pretty much intact. This was not a NASA science project by any means but I found the loads for this barrel. Warm up for this test consisted of shooting paper targets & steel for several days pretty much all day long. FWIW

Edit: While I have time, I might as well post a little more info on TAC: The powder used by BH in their MK 262 loads is a non-canister powder that is TAC-like but it is not canister grade TAC. Proof of this is easily accomplished by taking a BH MK 262 cartridge, pull it apart and weigh the powder: I got 26.0gr. That weight of even the wimpiest lot of canister-grade TAC under a 77gr SMK will put you WELL over any published data & will be approaching PROOF load level. BH had to do some very interesting mods to their MK 262 powder when the M4/M4A1 started being used in a what amount to a SAW role: it was high temp stabilized to a higher-than-then current (2004) mil spec. Back to canister grade TAC: somebody above posted ES was too high and that is true at .223 pressure. ES starts coming down once you cross into 5.56MM pressure and gets lower as pressure approached 5.56mm NATO max; this is not a guess. TAC also has exhibited a 3% lot-to-lot variation for me. Ramshot told me that is the max I can expect to see. So don't let a TAC lot changes bite you. The BH MK 262 MOD 1 cartridge makes 2825 FPS in my barrel and the 77gr. SMK AMU cartridge makes 2746 FPS. The BH AMU load is 0.1-0.2 MOA more accurate than BH MK262. Guys, I am just a fellow shooter looking for answers and all above is what I have personally seen so far. FWIW

Here is mag length 77gr. SMK over 5.56MM TAC @750yds (MV 2824/SD 11.44 FPS):

Here is over-mag-length 80gr. Berger VLD over 5.56MM pressure TAC@750yds (MV 2822/SD 6.24 FPS):

Field shooting platform:

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I finally got a chance to shoot some SMK 77gr loaded with TAC powder, LC10 brass, CCI41 primer, with a light crimp by Lee Factory Crimp die. Out of my 16" barrel Daniel Defense M4, 24.8gr grouped around 0.8x MOA at 100yd and 300yd. The MV is 2637, about 100fps faster than Varget. The brass seems much dirtier with TAC than Varget.

But I am getting ejector mark on the brass. The max load according Ramshot is 24.8gr for bolt or mil spec semi auto. Perhaps I should back down 0.1 or 0.2gr to see what happens.

 

[Paladin2147]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

How does it do in the sun, or after sometime in a hot pickup?

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

According to Sierra a 77 SMK at 2750 is 1339 at 675, 1096 at 875, and 1006 at 1000 yards. I get 2700 with 24 grains of Varget and 2750 with 24.5. To get 1339 (above transonic at sea level) at 1000 you need a MV of 3650. Coincidental that 675 yards and transonic at sea level are the same. DOD specs rate it to 700 meters (765 yards).

I haven’t shot the 77 past 600 yards.

I have loaded Berger 80.5’s with 25 grains of Varget for 1000 yards seated really long. I haven’t chronographed it but it’s around 2800 fps based on when I was working it up. I shot my first 1000 yard match with out testing the final load. The load performed well but I didn’t keep track of wind well.

I have some TAC to try for both but haven’t had the time to try it. Ramshot does list loads and pressure for 5.56 loads along with .223 on their website.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Kevin,
As I stated above, TAC can vary by as much as 3% lot-to-lot. I have used one lot of TAC that reached MAX (in my opinion) at 24.5gr TAC under a 77gr. SMK. But at that charge level, the velocity was 2824 FPS in my 18" Krieger. For reference, factory Black Hills factory 5.56MM 77gr. SMK based MK 262 MOD 1 makes 2825 FPS in the same barrel. Factory BH MK 262 MOD 1 will have extractor marks on the fired brass (linked below) and it is limited to only 58,700 PSI pressure by U.S. 5.56MM ammunition mil-spec. Handloads that produce full 5.56MM NATO pressure of 62,350 psi will have VERY definite extractor marking on the cases. Brass life will be short at that pressure level especially in an AR15/M16 rifle. If your TAC loads look a little too hot, back it off 0.2 gr. The 5.56MM case is small and therefore builds pressure rapidly. On Varget: I have a 24" 1x9 chrome moly barrel that shoots the 77gr. SMK over 5.56MM pressure Varget VERY well. But this 18" Krieger 1x7.7 prefers the TAC load. All of the 5.56MM TAC loads I have chrono'd have had higher MV than 5.56MM Varget loads using the same bullet fired in the same barrel.

HTH

Factory Black Hills MK 262 MOD 1 casings fired inL-R) 10" chrome lined 1x7 Colt M4, 16" chrome lined 1x7 Colt M4, & 24" chrome-moly 1x9 Bushy
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/MK262MOD1101624.jpg

Tac's high temp stability info from manufacturer posted here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3211136

 

[M855]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Tac works great for lighter bullets,I shoot 75gr hornadays
with varget in a sps tac it shoots bugholes at a 100yards

 

[BCP]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kolkio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does it do in the sun, or after sometime in a hot pickup? </div></div>

Tac is good if you want fine metering and high velocity but if you want temp insensitivity varget ar-comp h4895 try those instead.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kolkio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does it do in the sun, or after sometime in a hot pickup? </div></div>

Tac is good if you want fine metering and high velocity but if you want temp insensitivity varget ar-comp h4895 try those instead.




</div></div>

You left one very important TAC trait out of your statement: "TAC is good if you want fine metering and high velocity" AND (reference groups posted above) TAC is easily capable of sub-MOA groups out to 750yds. when fired from an accurized 18" SPR type AR15/M16 rifle..... H4895 does have at least one potential draw-back that I have experienced: 5.56MM pressure H4895 loads are highly compressed when used with either 70gr. TSX or 77gr. SMK loads. This compression is capable of distorting the ogive of the bullet which can potentially affect accuracy especially at LR. In addition, AFAIK there is no empirical temperature stability data on any canister-grade powder as measured in 5.56MM handloads; this is something that is sorely lacking for 5.56MM shooters.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I'm currently shooting 24gr Tac behind a 77gr Nosler for 2724 at fps @ 72 deg. 2.72" @ 300 yds.

24.6gr Tac behind a 80gr Amax for 2832 fps gives me 4.5" @ 600 yds.

The rifle is a 26" Douglas 1/7 twist barrel
LC 03 - 06 brass
Tula 5.56 primers

As the temps reach 90 deg, I'm getting nervous.

 

[BCP]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

@ leid

Lots of powders are accurate but if you want temp insensitivity the list gets smaller. I should be going shooting this next week, it's been about 80 or so degrees here so I'll try the icebox+chrono for some of my 24tac+75horn loads and then leave some in the sun and chrono them. I have varget ones on hand too I'll try and post the results when I get them.

As far as bullet deformation because of compressed seating that's overrated and can be minimized by using good dies that are ground out for your bullet.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

BCP,
I have had groups severely affected by small changes to bullets. Rolling an M193 type cannelure on the Speer 70gr. bullet I used in matches in the '70-'80s doubled group size. That is probably the reason Sierra rolls a very minimal cannelure on their 77gr. SMK. So I am more comfortable not deforming bullets at all or as least as little as possible. Crunch loads of H4895 are VERY hard to seat especially to shorter COAL.
Home-grown temp stab testing should be very informative. Please post your results.

TIA!

Edit: Jeff Hoffman from Black Hills has indicated that powder companies have made a lot of behind-the-scenes temp stability improvements to powders in just the past few years. The mil-spec propellant used in BH MK 262 MOD 1 ammunition was further high temp stabilized around 2005; that may have prompted powder companies into these improvements. Older powder may or may not have the same temp stab as current powder of the same type.

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Hi Leid,

I took a picture of my fired brass, it is here
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8024/7251934366_4084214792_b.jpg

This is for 24.8gr load. I remember seeing similar ejector marks on 24.5gr load as well. The ejector marks don't look bad comparing to your brass. But there are lots of black soot on the brass, which I don't remember seeing when use Varget.

I shot 24.0gr, 24.5gr and 24.8gr. 24.8gr offers the best groups around 0.8x MOA. But the velocity is kind of disappointing, only 2640fps out of a 16" chrome lined barrel. I will shoot some groups with 24.7gr. Unless 24.7gr shoots exceptionally well, it is very likely I will stay with 24.8gr.

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Hi Leid,

Have you got a chance to load some Barnes 70gr TSX? I am interested in that load. Planning to use it in coyotes hunting for the up coming hunting season.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Hey Kevin,
The short version on velocity is you can take (3) 16" barrels with bores that are: chrome-moly/chrome lined/stainless steel. Run the same load thru them and you will not get the same velocity measurements. I would expect the widest variation to be between a chrome-lined and a match grade SS like a Krieger due to a very tight bore. If possible; chrono a couple factory MK 262 cartridges and see what you get. Also save the casings for primer condition comparison. I don't see anything scary in your fired primers but they definately indicate 5.56MM pressure to me. I do see a little variation: some are still pretty round and I see one that is flat. But I can show virtually the same thing in a box of fired MK 262 casings. I am the wrong person to ask about soot on casings because I rarely shoot without a suppressor; my casings are always sooty from the backpressure. It is cosmetic & is removed when the brass is chemically cleaned or tumbled. I shot BR against one shooter who never cleaned his brass with no measurable accuracy difference; might just be our OCD.
And yes on the 70gr. TSX over TAC; I worked with it for (3) days mostly in a 10.0" 1x7 Colt M4 barrel (MV 2543 FPS) & 10.5" 1x7 Noveske (MV 2534 FPS) with ZERO progress. But the same load fired in a 14.5" 1x7 Colt SOCOM shows real promise (MV 2741 FPS). 70gr. TSX over a SEVERE crunch load of H4895 (COAL 2.245") groups 0.5"@100yds in another shooter 16" 1x7 but the short barrels did not like that loading either. Same with (3) factory loading: SSA (MV 2575 FPS in 10"), SWA (MV 2456 FPS 10"), & 5.56MM Optimized (MV 2506 FPS in 10"). Will attempt to sort it out at another week long shoot early June.

 

[markc.mcconnell]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

I am using TAC with 60 gr Vmax bullets 24.5 gr powder. Shoots sub moa in my Stag AR and around moa in my mini-14.

 

[BCP]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Alright just got back from the range.

TAC gained 100fps varget gained 30. Icechest->ambient->sitting in the sun for half an hour. So not great but not bad.

edit:

TAC=24 grains
Varget=24.3
LC brass, CCI primer, 75 horn BTHP, 2.245nominal
All rounds were loaded the same day
70 degrees out/16" barrel

TAC icechest rounds were
2601
2587
2615
2610
***error***

Ambient
2655
2650
2639
***error***
***error***
2642

"hot" rounds
2710
2701
2738
2699
***error***
2725

I didn't write down the varget values but they started at 2600 and got to 2630.

While my chrono isn't best it's still hard to ignore values that are consistently increasing in direct relation to the value that you are trying to measure (ie, temperature). Especially when I'd shoot a string of ambient ones, then randomly load a hot one and the chrono would go from reading in the mid 2600's to the low 2700s. Also there are more noticeable marks on the brass with 'hot' than 'cold' and a few of the cold ones had sooty necks.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

BCP,
OUCH! I disagree: that number for TAC is flat terrible. Ramshot/Western indicated that TAC should test out to be much more temp stable (below). LMK the specifics on your test load. I have a week-long shoot in early June. Should have the time to get some pretty good numbers as I have a freezer just next to the chrono & a heat gun. Will try to get 0-125 F. We all appreciate you taking the time to get your numbers but I for one hope the powder got wet or something. IMHO, 100 FPS is ABYSMAL!

"Ramshot "TAC" is a powder that we are extremely proud of just because of the fact it is a very temperature stable, spherical powder. One of the few spherical powders that can make this claim and one of the very best in performance!"

">> In both the single base and double base lines of powders
>> some powders have better temperature stability than others.
>> Ramshot "TAC" is one of the most temperature
>> stable double based powders available. It is this very
>> reason that so much of it is being used for military
>> applications in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Even under
>> extreme temperatures Ramshot "TAC" will vary less
>> than half of what the military will allow.
>>
>> I hope this helps you out.
>>
>> Good shooting!
>>
>> Keith Anderson
>> Western Powders Ballistic Lab
"

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Thanks. I didn't notice the flatted primer till I saw the picture. There is definitely some variation. One thing I found out is that I need to seat the primer just slightly deeper. Could this be the reason?

TAC really meters well by RCBS chargemaster. It is hard to go back to Varget for 223 now.

I will load some 70gr TSX with TAC and report back my findings.

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Kevin,
I posted info on the 70gr. TSX over TAC & SSA/SWA/5.56MM Optimized factory loadings on arf.com because I am mostly testing with short 10.0"/10.3"/10.5" barrels. So far, I have mostly found what will <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> group well especially in short barrels. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/370902...ers_added_.html

 

[leid]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

BCP,
Those numbers look pretty sad. Thanks for taking the time to do the testing & post your numbers!

 

[freeflight]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

Leid,

Thanks for the heads up. I will try short COAL with this bullet.

Kevin

 

[Unknown]

Re: How well does TAC powder in .223 group?

TAC works fine in my 5.56 and my Grendels.