Hunting rig chambering?

[Mauser06]

My big game hunting in Pennsylvania consists of tracking and still hunting and some treestand sits. Shots are usually up close and personal. I bet my average is 30 yards of so. For that, I have a Kimber Montana I had bored out to 358win.


My "void" in my hunting rifles is a longer range rig.


I have a thing for light weight rigs after the Montana.

I have a 19oz Browns Precision stock. Probably run a m700 short action clone of some sort. Good barrel. Aluminum bottom metal. Good barrel.


Biggest thing I need to figure out is chambering.


I handload so that's not an issue.


I'd like it to be "elk capable" out to 400yds or so.


Was thinking maybe a short action 7mm flavor? Considered a 7wsm or 300wsm but don't know that it's "needed". 7-08 or varient?


Thoughts? Suggestions?


Thanx! Curious to see what you guys come up with.

 

[shoot4fun]

I love the 7MM -08 but it IS NOT what I consider "elk capable" at 400 yards IMO.
But then I have never been elk hunting.
The 7WSM is an amazing caliber but seems on the short list of ammo/brass makers for failure due to lack of offerings available.
I could envision myself hunting the hunt you seem to be talking about with something like the Seekins Havoc in 6.5PRC.

 

[mcfred]

In my opinion, depending on projectile and where you put it, the follwoing 7mms are perfectly capapble of killing elk at 400yds from a short action.
7mm-08
7mm-08AI
7mm SAW
.284 Win
7mm Sherman Short Mag
7mm SAUM
7mm/.300 WSM (for brass availability)
7mm WSM (as a hunting rifle, you probably won't need much brass once you have a developed load)

If you're hearing people being successful with a ~150gr 6.5mm projectile, then I'd expect that a 150gr 7mm won't be too far off. Some cocktail napkin calcs show a 150 NABLR has roughly 1700ftlb energy at 400yards from published 7mm-08 muzzly velocities. Seems to me that should suffice. If you lean on it you can get 180s to nearly 3000fps muzzle velocity and ~2500ftlb at 400yds from the WSMs. If you have a ultralight WSM you'll get a good shoulder massage every shot; concussion's pretty good too.

 

[R_Swanson]

This the internet, so everything is an argument, but asking about what is a solid elk cartridge is like discussing politics. Please dont start a thread on expandable vs fixed blade broadheads next.

My own personal opinion is this:
Heavier 7mm's are fine, but I wouldn't choose a 6.5. Its not like its not being done, its definitely becoming more popular for larger game. Hell, a man I knew growing up, long since deceased, used to elk hunt with a 243, and he had numerous top 10 Wyoming animals in the record books back in his day (mostly Antelope actually, but other species as well). But I was never old enough to ask him how many elk he lost. You randomly see a lot more stories about elk being lost with 6.5's than you do 7's or 30 cals.

I personally would want to load up a 165ish grain or heavier bullet.

My 400/450 yrd mountain gun build is a 308. At the distance we're talking, it still carries with it around 1500 ft lbs of energy. It doesn't really kick. Its also *super* easy to get ammo for loaded with 165-180 grain bullets. If something happens and you're on a trip out west or to Alaska and your ammo somehow is stolen, misplaced, etc, you can go to any sporting goods store and get 308... these days you will probably be able to find good rounds, too. I think this is more valuable than people realize when talking about a rifle you plan to take on trips, or running around in the woods with for a week or two at a time. Random things happen.

If you want to build a rifle for elk out to 600, 700ish yards, than its a totally different discussion. But for 400/450ish yards, I keep it simple. Ballistics arent really a concern.

 

[hereinaz]

7 Sherman Short Mag shoots all the long heavies in true short action. IMO, if you want long range in 7mm, you go with the 180 Berger VLD and get them to 3000 fps.

But, 400 isn't barely long range. You can do holdovers with a fast 7mm. So, a 168ish vld accubond, etc. in a 7 saum is gonna be just fine out to 400 yards.

In fact, inside 400 yards, any mid to heavy 7mm bullet is gonna kill elk. It could be 7-08 velocity or higher.

Elk are not tanks. Know your shot placement and pick a bullet and velocityfor it. "Energy" by itself isn't a good measure, cause it all depends on how the bullet performs inside the animal.

Put a good bullet through the lungs and they die. As long as you have over 1800 fps on Berger hunting bullet you will kill. If you plan on "shoulder shots" then go as big as you want cause them bones are big.

 

[BurnOut]

Primary consideration (for me) for a hunting rifle is the ability to find ammo at the backwoodsest country store you ever heard of ('cause shit happens), so I say go long action and either 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Looks like you'll need to decide if you want a short action magnum or short action standard cartridge.
if you wanna go short action magnum, maybe 7wsm or similar

short action standard, maybe 7mm-08 or 308, or even 338 federal.

 

[shoot4fun]

This the internet, so everything is an argument, but asking about what is a solid elk cartridge is like discussing politics. Please dont start a thread on expandable vs fixed blade broadheads next.

My own personal opinion is this:
Heavier 7mm's are fine, but I wouldn't choose a 6.5. Its not like its not being done, its definitely becoming more popular for larger game. Hell, a man I knew growing up, long since deceased, used to elk hunt with a 243, and he had numerous top 10 Wyoming animals in the record books back in his day (mostly Antelope actually, but other species as well). But I was never old enough to ask him how many elk he lost. You randomly see a lot more stories about elk being lost with 6.5's than you do 7's or 30 cals.

I personally would want to load up a 165ish grain or heavier bullet.

My 400/450 yrd mountain gun build is a 308. At the distance we're talking, it still carries with it around 1500 ft lbs of energy. It doesn't really kick. Its also *super* easy to get ammo for loaded with 165-180 grain bullets. If something happens and you're on a trip out west or to Alaska and your ammo somehow is stolen, misplaced, etc, you can go to any sporting goods store and get 308... these days you will probably be able to find good rounds, too. I think this is more valuable than people realize when talking about a rifle you plan to take on trips, or running around in the woods with for a week or two at a time. Random things happen.

If you want to build a rifle for elk out to 600, 700ish yards, than its a totally different discussion. But for 400/450ish yards, I keep it simple. Ballistics arent really a concern.

I swear I think I just read a Craig Boddington "gun rag" article. LOL
The 6.5 can get it done as good as anything. Problem these days is that 6.5's can turn a guy into thinking no distance is too far. That's the trouble!
My most favorite is the 7MM-08 but, as I said, I have never had opportunity to hunt or kill elk and have no idea how it would do at 400 yards. Likely better than the 6.5 Creedmoor but not as good as the 6.5PRC shooting something in the high 140-150 bullet weight range. In all fairness the good old 30-06 with proper bullet placement would be a good choice and, as stated above, every nook and cranny of elk country has a box of 30-06 stuck in it.

 

[R_Swanson]

I swear I think I just read a Craig Boddington "gun rag" article. LOL
The 6.5 can get it done as good as anything. Problem these days is that 6.5's can turn a guy into thinking no distance is too far. That's the trouble!
My most favorite is the 7MM-08 but, as I said, I have never had opportunity to hunt or kill elk and have no idea how it would do at 400 yards. Likely better than the 6.5 Creedmoor but not as good as the 6.5PRC shooting something in the high 140-150 bullet weight range. In all fairness the good old 30-06 with proper bullet placement would be a good choice and, as stated above, every nook and cranny of elk country has a box of 30-06 stuck in it.

LOL. No - most of these arguments are re-hashed and as threads pop up time and time again on western and/or long range hunting forums.

That being said, lets make it simple: I don't see an argument for choosing a lighter bullet for heavy game with thick hides at distances where the ballistic advantages of the lighter bullet don't matter. Its not like the alternatives discussed kick much more.

 

[wpeach1912]

I’d go 308 win or 7-08 and call it done. As long as you’re using good bullets that are relatively heavy for caliber, those will get the job done quite well. If you’re skeptical about their killing power at range, watch some of Randy Newbergs elk hunting videos on YouTube. He pretty much only uses 308 or 7-08 and kills a lot of elk. Plus either of those rounds allow you to find ammo in pretty much any store.

 

[shoot4fun]

Maybe we should have the OP find out from the experts at 24hourcampfire.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

For 400yd, and up to Elk, why not try the tried-and-true Winchester Mod 70 30-06.

Enough gun for the task, OK to carry, great factory ammo available; that was my pick, and I handload, too. Killed a bunch of deer with it in Southern Central NY/Yates County.

Simpler is better.

Greg

 

[Wiscat]

400yd Elk gun? Tikka 300win/wsm. They tend to put those things at the top of mountains you have to carry your gun up.

 

[jakelly]

I personally (no shade intended to previous replies) put zero stock in availability of gas station ammo. I load my own, I’m not going to be without ammo, if I have to, I’ll send it a month before I go. I also put zero weight on variety of bullet weights available. I don’t use different weight bullets for different animals. One load, one rifle, and total confidence.

That said, I would choose a 7-08, 260, 6.5 CM, or maybe 6.5 SAUM / PRC. That Brown Precision stock is ultralight, if you’re going to have total confidence in your shot, you’re going to have shoot the rifle a good bit. Don’t forget the four Ps of hunting cartridges: placement, performance, penetration, and placement. I’d be reluctant to shoot for heavy 7s moving fast. My 6.5 SAUM is a good bit heavier than your rifle will be, and recoil isn’t nonexistent. These decisions need to start at the start. Choose the projectile/s that meet/s your goals, find a case that allows you to drive it the speed you need, and then consider magazine constraints. If you are going to use an extended internal mag (and I would) that opens up options. My personal choice would be 6.5 SAUM, but that’s based on dies, projectiles, and brass.

 

[Ankeny]

FWIW, I have killed 6 elk with my 7mm-08. Two were bulls and four were cows. One bull and one cow were right at the 400 yard mark. You just need to pick your shots with care.

 

[Mauser06]

So, about like I figured this post would go. Lol.


When I go on hunting trips, I take more than 1 rifle. I fully understand the ammo argument though. I'm a good walking example of "stuff happens". But, that's why I pack back ups. Short of my truck being stolen or blowing up in a fire, I have hunting ammo for my rifles in there.


400yds is probably a stretch. That'd be absolute ideal conditions that typically doesn't happen. And who knows... A mountain elk hunt may never happen.

Recoil isn't a major concern... atleast not right now in my life. I'm slinging 225gr pills from a sub 6 pound 358win now. I have a 35 Whelen slinging the same from a rifle that's 6 and change. And another whelen that's a little heavier.



Why a short action light little rig? I'd say if you have to ask...you don't walk far and hunt from a fixed stand and/or never carried a true Lightweight rig. Yep. I know. Thousands of big game critters are killed out west every year by guys toting big ole heavy suckers. Theyll say loose pounds off your gut and don't worry about rifle weight.

I carried my Montana this season and just absolutely loved it. There's a time and place for heavy guns.


Not sure what direction to go. Not in any hurry either. Definitely trying to do my homework and think it through.

 

[chevy_man]

7-08 works fine. 6.5 creed works fine. 25-06 works fine.

I've never seen a hit elk that was lost if it was a decent hit. I've found dead ones that were gut shot and not recovered. Bad shot won't kill quickly. Good shots will kill easily with little effort.

They never run far without lungs. That mid lung shot is money every time with no meat damage. Also makes caliber overkill pointless as a rib is the biggest thing to hit.

My dad has a trophy bull that dropped thanks to a 115 partition in a 25wsm. He still gets told by guys every damn day (he works in a gun store) that they NEED a 300 win mag to kill an elk. He politely tells them he has never shot any of a few dozen elk with anything larger than a 6.5x55, and plenty have been with the 6.5 creed.

Notice how the guys in this thread that are recommending magnums, also admit they haven't killed an elk? Just because they're large doesn't make them hard to kill.

 

[Mauser06]

Chevy man, that's kinda what I'm thinking.


The 7 SAW or 7-08 AI are looking appealing. You aren't doing a whole heck of a lot more with a long action or a magnum to make a difference at the ranges I'd shoot game. Oh wait....the magnums are doing something more....burning a LOT more powder, hurting my arm more and eating up barrel life faster.

Sure....stretch it beyond and the bigger guns might have an edge....but do they really? The recoil and muzzleblast can make them difficult to shoot....and the shooter is almost definitely not getting as much trigger time as I would....if they are shooting it accurately, they have a MUCH heavier rifle and pay the price in weight.


A 300wsm is also slightly appealing...maybe. Could load it about as ridiculous as I want or as tame as I want. But really...they are getting 2800-2900 with 160s from the 7 SAW. 2700+ with 180s from it. That's nothing to sneeze at from a little ole short action.

I have to measure the stock and consider the barrel. I think it's actually inlet for a WSM barrel. But barrel gap doesn't bother me. And Devcon fills gaps. And the WSM barrel will surely add some weight. I don't know that it'll matter to me. I'm not shaving ounces on this rig. 6-6.5 glassed up would be fine.


I don't understand the guys saying 6.5 something but a 7 something isn't on the radar.



At the end of the day, I'm an eastern woodsman for the most part. I've actually never killed a deer beyond 75yds and I've killed probably 40-50ish.

Heck, of probably carry one of my flintlocks if I ever went elk hunting lol. Love a big ole plume of black powder smoke. I don't know...a .570" roundball would probably bounce right off an elk.....lol

 

[Wiscat]

As a guy who has done quite a bit of hunting out west I can tell you that after all the effort that goes into an elk hunt It's nice to have a little extra horsepower in reserve. An awful lot of elk shooting is in less than Ideal settings. Yes a 6.5; hell even a 243 will dust an undisturbed elk broadside.

Picture this:

You've been hunting for 6 days. Every day your doing many miles with 1-3k of elevation change, eating shitty backpacking food, sleeping on the ground, and wondering whats going on at home/work. That afternoon you see a legal bull, the first you've seen on the trip, moving hard towards the timber, quartering away @180 yards. At that moment do you want a 6.5 with a 140 gr bullet @ 2700fps or a 300 with a 200gr Accubond moving faster?

The thing I know about elk hunting especially is that it sucks unless it's great and you want to capitalize on the opportunities given.

Just my 2cents.

 

[idahoorion]

Because elk hunting is hunting, many or most shots are improvised positions. with a very light weight gun you likely will not be able to spot impacts. The need for the proper bullet is huge. A double lung elk can travel quite a ways, a single lung hit more so. to be happy I want a blood trail and that means exit.
I shot a 270 in a browns precision with canjar single set for years, never pushed it over 300 and killed lots of elk, and never lost one. but I moved to the 300 with 200 grain bullets, the difference was dramatic. Today I shoot a long action 284 or my 7mmRM 175s, a step behind the 300 but easier to shoot. I have moved long with happy results but you need to pick the shots. For three-five ounces of difference I will carry the long action. BTW, I have used a .358 browning lever a couple times on elk. wonderful to carry used 225 grain pointed bullets and it will pound em. at 200 in you don't need to worry about penetration with that set up.

Idahoorion

 

[Jarrodb1975]

Here in Kentucky were are to only state that I know who has a high caliber restriction for elk. I have always been a fan of 30-06. I can load it any way I want and it’s capable here and out west.

 

[Mauser06]

Good stuff! I definitely understand you want "enough gun". Otherwise I'd spin up something pleasant to shoot and not have this conversation.

It really is the mechanical vs fixed blade debate.


From here and other reading I've done, guys that actually live in elk territory and hunt them regularly, seem to like "non-magnums". But, they aren't on a short expensive trip...they can probably be more selective of their shots...they probably have more time to scout and hunt and get more shot opportunities.


Really, my 358 with 180gr TTSXs at 2800 or so will probably do all I need...except it starts dropping pretty hard after about 200. 300 is do-able. I just don't know how "shorted" I'd feel. Might not be as limiting as it may seem. Not like I'm a sheep hunter where terrain can actually limit where you can shoot from.


Definitely building some sort of short action. Just because I have the stock. Lol. I know my "void" in the gun closet is a long range big game chambering.

 

[sam4886]

It seems like you're interested in some of the more boutique stuff, and that's fine, I've got some too.

My hunting rifle is a 8lb 308. Loaded with 178 eldx its carrying plenty of energy to go through a shoulder at 400 yards if it has to.

I know the feeling of wanting to buy something fancy and using a hunting "need" as an excuse. Buy what makes you happy, just about any traditional short action chambering will whack an elk.