My mother in law is in Madison, Wisconsin. She has a 2br and 1 bath condo on a first floor walk up. It’s probably 1200-1300 sf. She needs a new ac unit. First guy recommended a Trane at 5000. Second guy recommended a carrier at 8000. Is this a reasonable estimate?
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HVAC advice
- Thread starter stemikel
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Both are top tier units, Trane has been the industry standard for ever but IIRC Carrier invented the air conditioner. I had a Carrier in Tesas and it served me well.
I'd do some research on the installers themselves, also in the warranty, and finance options. Some offer up to 6 years 0% through Wells Fargo. If she can get that why pay out of pocket, go with the finance and do auto draft from her checking acct.
All else being equal, go with the lower estimate.
I'd do some research on the installers themselves, also in the warranty, and finance options. Some offer up to 6 years 0% through Wells Fargo. If she can get that why pay out of pocket, go with the finance and do auto draft from her checking acct.
All else being equal, go with the lower estimate.
HVAC guys have families to feed and businesses to build. That said, there is healthy profit built into these refresh projects. It might take 2-3 guys 8 hours to complete all that work. Also consider hardware shortages has driven the pricing of components up.
Get a couple quotes to confirm the sizing estimation and price. And then I would choose the outfit that is best situated to perform quality work vs. the cheapest solution.
Get a couple quotes to confirm the sizing estimation and price. And then I would choose the outfit that is best situated to perform quality work vs. the cheapest solution.
I automatically reject any estimates that don't have each line item broken down to show quantity and price- it's just expected for good business practice because it's the only way for the buyer to compare apples to apples.
Get two more estimates to be safe.
Get two more estimates to be safe.
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Check to see if either are offering rebates. Trane was but I don't know if still open.
Look at an extended warranty. I had to have 2 units installed same week in October. 2 different locations 2 contractors, 1 Trane, 1 Carrier. Both said quality had gone to hell and parts were short supply. I had to wait 2 months for the Carrier unit due to parts and work load. Evaporators were failing regularly and he had people waiting months for replacements. Had a loading dock full of bad ones to take back to Trane. Same with compressors.
Don't expect any of the new units to last 15+ years like old units. Both said you would be lucky to get 8 now.
Also, they changed something with the SEER rating 1/1/23. IE higher unit cost.
Look at an extended warranty. I had to have 2 units installed same week in October. 2 different locations 2 contractors, 1 Trane, 1 Carrier. Both said quality had gone to hell and parts were short supply. I had to wait 2 months for the Carrier unit due to parts and work load. Evaporators were failing regularly and he had people waiting months for replacements. Had a loading dock full of bad ones to take back to Trane. Same with compressors.
Don't expect any of the new units to last 15+ years like old units. Both said you would be lucky to get 8 now.
Also, they changed something with the SEER rating 1/1/23. IE higher unit cost.
Yea gotta make sure one guy is screwing you over on his sheetmetal screw count.
Spoken like a guy/gal who doesn't want the buyer to have the info needed to make a smart decision. Conservatives and Conserva-tarians believe in voluntaryism and transparency. Dems believe in smoke and mirrors.
Pretending the average consumer has enough information to make an informed and educated decision is not only misguided, but unhelpful. Great parts installed poorly give poor performance. Average parts, installed well, give very good performance. If all you're doing is comparing installer markups on identical parts, then sure, demand line item quotes. But expecting that you're getting any more information than that is ridiculous. And absolutely none of that has anything to do with left or right politics.
Seems high to me, what a new furnace and AC cost me about 5 years ago, but that was 5 years ago. I have been pricing mini splits for my shop and the prices on those make it a no brainer, project for spring.
That said,
Also check with the utility, sometimes they offer rebates of units that are X efficient. As to the labor, the two guys did mine in half a day. It should not take all that long.
The poster that said get an itemized list of charges is right, look at the hours. I think this stuff is all priced about the same, a little like a bed, they all cost the same because the price is set. See what company works best for you.
That said,
Also check with the utility, sometimes they offer rebates of units that are X efficient. As to the labor, the two guys did mine in half a day. It should not take all that long.
The poster that said get an itemized list of charges is right, look at the hours. I think this stuff is all priced about the same, a little like a bed, they all cost the same because the price is set. See what company works best for you.
They must be making money on the labor, not the parts. Just a week ago I did an estimate for a similar scope, just bigger, more efficient equipment, and came out at nearly twice that, though our labor cost is high, relatively speaking. Without accounting for labor cost, Carrier installer looks like they are pretty reasonable. Trane installer might be a little low, because I can't even get that equipment for 5k, let alone install it.
Overpriced? Ha! Take your prices from 5 years ago and add at least 50% to it. Now you are in the current ballpark.
I think that is an extremely fair price for a 2 ton AC, v-coil and 2-ton Performance furnace. That is, only if she needs a 96%, 2-stage unit. Get a price on a 59SC2D0601714 (92% single stage).
Asking for an itemized bid with parts? You are funny. Try giving 3-4 bids per day and write them up with options, satisfy customer wants AND make sure the system combination achieves an AHRI to qualify for a rebate under SEER2 without going over $10k for a 2 ton system.
Sure, sounds easy.
I think that is an extremely fair price for a 2 ton AC, v-coil and 2-ton Performance furnace. That is, only if she needs a 96%, 2-stage unit. Get a price on a 59SC2D0601714 (92% single stage).
Asking for an itemized bid with parts? You are funny. Try giving 3-4 bids per day and write them up with options, satisfy customer wants AND make sure the system combination achieves an AHRI to qualify for a rebate under SEER2 without going over $10k for a 2 ton system.
Sure, sounds easy.
Another question,
This quote also incudes a furnace. The furnace works fine, but is the same vintage.
Should I just replace both now? Or do I wait until the furnace fails and then replace it? Is it cheaper to do both at the same time?
This quote also incudes a furnace. The furnace works fine, but is the same vintage.
Should I just replace both now? Or do I wait until the furnace fails and then replace it? Is it cheaper to do both at the same time?
She's in Wisconsin, right? I'd think heating is far more important than cooling. Not replacing the furnace with the unit would be foolish.
“Furnace” moves the air for the AC. It would be penny wise and… to install a a new AC and not replace the furnace at the same time, assuming their predecessors were of similar age.
Between Carrier and Trane I’d definitely go Trane… wouldn’t have said that 15 years ago, but Mexico gonna Mexico… and the Carrier estimate seems offensively high. FWIW…
I priced a mini split for a 400 ft/2 garage conversion. The estimator said 6K I laughed in their face. I ended up going with a Samsung heat/cool unit that I installed for $750. I added a ceiling fan and it does a wonderful job for a large bedroom, bathroom and utility room.. If it only lasts 5 years I could replace it 5 times and still be ahead. Thats something your MIL may want to consider, the only caveat is you do need a 220 plug with in 4 feet. That still should be a lot cheaper. If swhe needs a bit more, scroll down for a larger one for $850.
You sound like you are in the business.
I have little doubt things are more expensive, and I would be shocked if it is ONLY 50% more with Bidenflation.
When we got ours done, we got a full list with all kinds of options and costs for the options. We have a smaller filter on ours, really too small. Included in the price was an option for replacing the duct work that held the filter. Labor, and supplies all in there for the option. There was not really anything we got hit with when we replaced both the furnace and AC. It was what they said it was. We kept the old filter setup, just saw little need for it. We did go with a new thermostat, but not one that would talk to anything. Remember this:
Colorado utility company locks 22,000 thermostats in 90 degree weather due to 'energy emergency'
A Colorado utility company was slammed on social media after customers were locked out of their smart thermostats as temperatures rose past 90 degrees.
www.foxbusiness.com
I have a feeling that a great many people in "the business" really hate these things. They are so darn easy to do, and like you said how many times can you just toss it out and replace it for what they want to charge you. I am going to do the same thing in my shop next spring right before summer hits. Trying to get all the big ticket items bought before I retire. If I am going to fool in my shop I want it to be comfortable. Currently it is down stairs with one 220v "window" AC, but it just can't keep up with upstairs. I could do more insulation and all that, but too much trouble or too expensive, I will just toss BTU's at it, much more easy and inexpensive, plus I don't live out there.
There are a few "electric" type things you "should" do depending on your "codes" they could vary, but some are pretty set in stone.
With the OP's person living in a condo, I am not sure how they would like you punching holes in the building, or even if that would be needed.
I was also looking for about 10sec at a fireplace insert. You want how much for that? Ok, thank you very much. While at the rape place I asked about a wood burning stove in my shop, metal building don't need to hide anything just a small stove and pipe out the building.
He said about six, ok on the way to a Dr appt, thanks I will give you a call later. When we get to the car the wife says you know he was talking $6000. No way.....yup. Fuck that with a phone pole. The double wall pipe is almost as expensive as a cheap stove. Another one I will just do myself. Darn stoves are heavy, likely will need to move it with the tractor when I get around to that.
He said about six, ok on the way to a Dr appt, thanks I will give you a call later. When we get to the car the wife says you know he was talking $6000. No way.....yup. Fuck that with a phone pole. The double wall pipe is almost as expensive as a cheap stove. Another one I will just do myself. Darn stoves are heavy, likely will need to move it with the tractor when I get around to that.
NO holes needed, you just set it right in the window. I'll snap a photo when I get back from the range.
I wouldn't have a Trane system if you gave it to me. Get the Carrier.
Yes. Replace the furnace with the A/C together. They will be a matching set and perform better and the labor expense from having to do it all over again when the furnace quits will be saved.
Anyone saying what they paid a couple years ago doesn't work in the industry. In the last three years we've had quarterly increases in equipment costs ranging from 5% to 13% . Great news though, we've only had one so far this year, if you don't count what inflation has done.
Anyone saying to put in a mini split to do 1300 square feet? Ignore them. Unless you want to freeze in one room and sweat in the rest.
PM me and I will send you my phone number. There's a couple things that I would like to question about the estimate concerning equipment size.
This^^^. I'm retired from over 40 years of commercial and lots of multi-family design/build mechanical/HVAC contracting. It pains me to say it because I was a strategic partner with Trane but their quality has gone to shit. Go with Carrier.
Going to go with the Carrier. The trane quote was from the first guy she met with. He hasn’t given her anything in writing.
Getting a quote on the 92% one stage before committing.
Will do the furnace at the same time
Thanks for the input
Getting a quote on the 92% one stage before committing.
Will do the furnace at the same time
Thanks for the input
If she’s burning propane in that furnace, ya might want the more efficient unit.
Plus consider you probably get a multi stage blower with the multistage furnace. They are much more quiet and comfortable running on low speed vs. the constant noise and hot or cold blast cycles with a single high stage.
Plus consider you probably get a multi stage blower with the multistage furnace. They are much more quiet and comfortable running on low speed vs. the constant noise and hot or cold blast cycles with a single high stage.
Also ain’t nobody getting by a Wisconsin winter with a single mini split heat heat pump unless you have a wood burning stove or similar to supplement and/or like to be cold.
Both LG and Mitsubishi make an outdoor unit that can handle four indoor heads (fan coils) in a heat pump configuration but in Wisconsin, likely need some auxiliary heat.
No, no hate for the DIY folks. If they do it badly, they call us to come fix it. If they do it well, chances are they know when they're in over their head, and call us to fix the big stuff. And anything that let's us focus on our bigger accounts, where we aren't haggling over $5k invoices, is a good thing.
If it comes with a multi stage blower (fan that circulates air through the home), most definitely yes.
I have a heating oil furnace and got quotes just to put in AC and use the furnace ducting and such, as you would.
$7k from multiple companies. I'm in Northern MN, my house is 711sq feet.
I then got a quote for a mini split, $6k.
I use a window AC in my bedroom and a portable AC that vents to a window in my living/dining room, my house is 64-65 degrees.
The AC companies told me that I should expect 65 from the central AC and from the split, that going lower, whether they go 1 1/2 ton or 2 ton isn't realistic.
I want 55-60, seems like that ain't happening, but for $7k and not get any better performance than the cheap Shit I use now... nope.
Worthless realtors up here told me central AC would be $1400-$1600, I can't believe these people get paid more than burger flippers.
Point is... seems the prices were fine to me on the quotes you got, given what I was quoted from not too far away.
$7k from multiple companies. I'm in Northern MN, my house is 711sq feet.
I then got a quote for a mini split, $6k.
I use a window AC in my bedroom and a portable AC that vents to a window in my living/dining room, my house is 64-65 degrees.
The AC companies told me that I should expect 65 from the central AC and from the split, that going lower, whether they go 1 1/2 ton or 2 ton isn't realistic.
I want 55-60, seems like that ain't happening, but for $7k and not get any better performance than the cheap Shit I use now... nope.
Worthless realtors up here told me central AC would be $1400-$1600, I can't believe these people get paid more than burger flippers.
Point is... seems the prices were fine to me on the quotes you got, given what I was quoted from not too far away.
55-60 degrees I like it, I can keep it there in the winter, summer ends up being kind of a 63-66 with 64/65 being most common.
I sit in a rocking chair, 65 plus and I start sweating through clothing, at 70 I'm miserable, though I'm at someone else's house if it's 70.
Over 70 and I'll wish everyone dead.
I can't do heat, I die in heat, I can do cold. Almost died twice in my life from heat stroke, first was a night in the hospital with minor heart failure, they wanted me for longer, second time my doc said I was likely minutes from death.
I sit in a rocking chair, 65 plus and I start sweating through clothing, at 70 I'm miserable, though I'm at someone else's house if it's 70.
Over 70 and I'll wish everyone dead.
I can't do heat, I die in heat, I can do cold. Almost died twice in my life from heat stroke, first was a night in the hospital with minor heart failure, they wanted me for longer, second time my doc said I was likely minutes from death.
You're making my point for me, brother. Long story short, the company I work for handles big commercial accounts, with nice margins, for customers who are willing to pay a premium for our services. They are our bread and butter. If I'm doing an install of new equipment for $5k, it's cause I'm trying to earn a service contract for 10 times that.
Like I said, if a person wants to install their own equipment, more power to them. It means I spend less time estimating low margin jobs, and more time taking care of the customers who simply pay the invoice when it shows up.
Probably my experience is of no help, so I am hellbound to share it.
In 2013, my outside compressor was overworking. I tried replacing the condenser motor and ended up breaking the pin off the compressor. So, I called the company that was always giving me pointers. They installed a new unit that was also nitrogen-compliant, in case that became a law. $4,200.
So, 5-8k after 10 years and COVID and braindead-in-charge fouling up our energy policy, I can imagine it is about like that.
In 2013, my outside compressor was overworking. I tried replacing the condenser motor and ended up breaking the pin off the compressor. So, I called the company that was always giving me pointers. They installed a new unit that was also nitrogen-compliant, in case that became a law. $4,200.
So, 5-8k after 10 years and COVID and braindead-in-charge fouling up our energy policy, I can imagine it is about like that.
You don't need an A/C system you need a freezer.
Seriously, to maintain temps like that you'll have to have freeze stats installed to keep the coil from freezing over. Any humidity will freeze on the coil at those coil temps.
Say you have $2 million a year in invoices.
Wouldn't it be a little irritating if the guy with the $5k bill is trying to argue about $25 on this part, and $40 on that part?
Now you go work for contractors installing unit after unit, invoice payed no questions asked. They pay you $50k in a month.
Would you not feel like it's a waste of time dealing with individuals?
Only thing worse than individuals is Walmart with their 120-180 day pay schedule. You get to float the costs on everything for 6 months while they "process the invoice and cut a check". They will try and nickel and dime you the whole time also.
But why do the parts need to be super inflated in the 1st place?
MF'r tried to charge me $180 for an $8 dollar start capacitor.
I sent his ass packing.
Think of it like eating at a restaurant. At a restaurant, you are not just paying for the food. You're paying for the table you sit at, the plate you eat from, the equipment for cooking the food, the person who cooked the food, the person who washed the plate, the person who brought the food to your table, the building the table sits in, the electricity to keep the power on, etcetera etcetera... Now, remember some customers dine and dash. Sometimes the cook gets it wrong and the restaurant eats the cost of the meal. An employee steals a bunch of food out of the walk in, and now they have to repurchase all that again.
Now add onto that, service companies usually have a warranty. Some dishonest folks like to game the system and take advantage of that any way they can.
You're not paying for the $8 capacitor. You're paying for the entire body of infrastructure needed to replace that capacitor for you. If you don't like it, don't call the service tech, and do it yourself. Everyone is happier that way.
There was a additional $200 labor charge for the 5 minutes of labor to install it on top of the maintenance check they were already paid to be on site for. The labor I can understand for all the reasons you mentioned. But $180 parts charge for an $8 part simply because most customers are ignorant is highway robbery.
It's like ordering a rib eye down at Longhorn and getting charged $360 for it.
Like I say, if you don't like it, don't call them. The market, unimpeded, selects for value. If you don't find value in calling that company, call someone else. Keep trying until you find value. When you find it, stay with it. And then tell your friends. A reputable company will reward your loyalty with prompt, efficient service, just like you reward good value with prompt payment.
If you and everybody else do that, then all the hacks will *magically* either improve, or leave the market. Simple.
You paid the labor charge for the tech, but you didn't pay for their truck, the fuel, the parts guy ordering the part, that they actually could find the part, the laborer that did receiving at the shop and put the part on the techs truck, etc
The difference is a homeowner thinks the service tech just runs to home Depot and grabs a part.
In reality, we go check out the call. Determine a solution to the problem, call/email the part into the parts guy, parts guy sources it from any number of vendors, get it into stock on the truck, and finally drive out and replace it.
They also forget I'm driving a truck that the company paid $45k for used, will be worth $5k in a few years after I run it up to 4-500k miles, takes a $1500 set of tires every year or less, $200 oil changes every month, random other maintenance and fixes, etc.
It takes money to make money. That's why company's invest millions into their labor force to keep them making millions. However, much of that goes right back out the door. My buddy is small time, 2 employees. He spent $26k in vehicle maintenance, $150k at the parts houses, $140k in wages, $60k in taxes, to make $100k for himself. He still wears a tool belt and does a lot himself. If he hired a 3rd guy to do his job he'd be damn near going backwards.
You work for yourself, you own the company. You're making a killing! You should be doing this for free or next to nothing. <<<<------- I love this mentality. Doctors and lawyers are the worst followed by the know it all's. I can get that from eBay/Amazon for half of that price!!! Well, I brought it with me on my truck. The correct part that I will warranty if it fails and do so probably within 24 hours. Try that with Amazon and eBay when it's 98° or 10°.
I had a customer call me that stated he had a bad outside fan motor. When I arrived he had the until taken apart and was using a hammer to drive the motor shaft through the blade hub. In doing so he had bent the blades. I looked at the capacitor and it was swollen like a watermelon. It cost him a $200 motor and a $100 fan blade plus labor for the $40 capacitor.
He said that he thought he would save a few dollars in labor by having it apart before I got there.
I have had some customers try to talk down our prices based on parts they could get at Home Depot.
What they do not see is what it takes to install correctly, being licensed, having to warranty work. Best I can do for those people is wish quietly that they have good luck and may the Farts be with them.
What they do not see is what it takes to install correctly, being licensed, having to warranty work. Best I can do for those people is wish quietly that they have good luck and may the Farts be with them.
