Range Report Hydrostatic Shock Information

[AussieShooter]

I am trying to find as much information as possible on hydrostatic shock and large game.

Any scientific reports with relation to this topic at varying distances (as far as possible) would be highly regarded including penetration of ballistic gelatin with projectiles from the .308 Win, 338 LM, 375 Cheytac and 416 barret.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I think that "hydrostatic shock" is a term no longer used in the scientific world, since there is no proof it ever existed to beging with.

The wounding mechanism more related to velocity and energy is "temporaty cavity", it is understood, can be measured, and it means a different thing:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

The best information I've read on the subject was writen by P.O. Ackley "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" A two volue set.

He did a lot of shooting donkeys and such showing the efects of "hydrostatic shock".

I was going to locate these books and post a link, what I found out is I'm taking my copies to town and putting them in a safe deposit box. Dern they've went up.

Anyway here's the link for what it's worth.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=P.O.+Ackley

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

P.O. Ackley wrote that book in the mid '50s, then updated it (that's where Vol I and II came) in the early '60s. That's more than 50 years ago... just saying

 

[Phil1]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

Here is a post with some links and a post or two down there are some more.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...826#Post2734826

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

Hydrostatic SHOCK my be a myth, but Hydrostatics/hydraulics is very real....

Put fluid in a closed container and then add the pressure of a high velocity bullet (especially one designed for expansion). You will get an overpressure which is why everyone likes shooting milk jugs full of water..... or if you are Jerry Miculek, cans of corn.

Same principal for Instant Incapacitation shots. Brain and fluid contained in skull, introduce the HV bullet, over pressure causes the incapacitation more times than a bullet striking the brainstem or medulla or whatever else.

Hydraulics is what it causing the temporary crush cavity. The more contained and pressure in the static target the more, I hate to use this word but my mind isn't coming up with anything else, explosive the impact will be.

Shoot a soda can!

Now, shake a soda can up and shoot it! More internal pressure causes a more dramatic impact.

I know this is kind of getting into circus tricks with the soda can, but, when it comes to animals (including humans) we are mostly water filled, so, I believe hydrostatics/hydraulics is important here.

Just my .02

 

[SurgeonPredator]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

Hydrostatic shock is a myth, because the human body (and any living thing) is not a soda can/water canister or milk jug. The theory was a closed body filled with liquid will "explode" when passed by a high speed bullet. But why do crime scene units (and I am not talking about the tv-series) use ballsitic gel instead of water jugs? Because the human body is not a soda can or a closed body. The pressure will be absorbed and the temporary cavity can cause more damage to the surrounding organs but not transfer some kind of shockwave through the nerve system. If that was true, the LE/mil would changed the way ammunition works against soft targets.

Increasing the temporary cavity is easy: expanding bullets, transferring more energy to the target. That is what JHP and defence ammo do.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I don't disagree with you on the soft tissue wound. I was more or less making reference to headshots. Being an LE Sniper, that seems to more of our focus and that being the case, it is not a myth.

I have no doubt that a bullets energy is absorbed in the tissue surrounding the path of the bullet. That is very logical.

And no, living animals are not soda cans. Which is why I made reference to circus tricks. But, the human head is a closed container except for an opening near the base of the skull where the brain stem enters (Foramen Magnum - I believe).

Foramen Magnum

I think I will step out of this conversation, as I do not want to derail the OP. I may be focusing too much on secondary posts and not the OP.

Good luck with your research!

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

There is little doubt about hidraulic shock inside a skull or an inelastic organ filled with blood.

But I guessed the OP was asking about the old hidrostatic shock theory where a body shot allegedly KO the animal due to a pressure spike trasmited via arteries/veins to the nervous system. This theory is largely discredited nowadays.

Not in the calibers you mention, but temporary cavity effects are very impressive with high power expanding ammunition (this is just a federal infomercial, but with good film):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nMKvetaMqhE

Despite the very high horsepower, some ELR rounds like 408 CT, etc. use machined solid bullets to maximize low drag and consistency, and to handle the extremely high stress while firing. These bullets tumble on impact but probably cannot make the temporary cavity volumes of lesser power expanding/fragmenting bullets of traditional lead core + jacket construction. I've seen many gel pics of 338 LM match HP bullets, but not of expanding ammo or of other more exotic calibers.

 

[AussieShooter]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

It seems I need to be referring to temporaty cavity rather than hydrostatic shock.

TiroFijo, do you know the location of the 338 LM temporaty cavity pics with measurement values in relation to the gel (temp cavity depth/width) and the various distances they where fired from?

I am interested in distances past 800 meters.
I know a 338 LM is lethal to man size targets at 1600 meters but what about donkeys, camels and scrub bulls past 800m?

This is ideally the Information I need.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I have shot a lot of animals with high powered rifles and the results of that experience tell me that hydrostatic shock does not exist. The wound cavity "stretches" and then rebounds which can cause tearing of tissues in close proximity but there is no shock wave effect propagating through the body damaging stuff outside the path of the bullet...I havent seen any damage that wasn't part of the wound cavity itself.
Bullets kill by hemorrhage, causing a loss of blood pressure, or by severing of the CNS. Only CNS hits guarantee instant incapacitation, again indicating a lack of all the claimed hydrostatic shock effects, otherwise heart shot animals ought to drop right where they are every time. They often do not, despite total destruction of the heart.

 

[boeger42]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I switched to Bergers this year from Accubonds to determine if there were differences in "percieved death" between the two. This year I shot a deer at 88 yds, an Auodad at 284 yds, and a hog at 619 yds. The Berger (hunting VLD) inflicted serious damage. The woundng and killing seems to be as fast, if not faster than the Accubond; however, in no instances did the animal react to the Berger as they have previously to the Accubond. When an animal is impacted by an Accubond the rapid expansion of their body cavity is visually noticable; however, that did not seem the case with the Bergers. Some guide buddies and I have gone round on this subject but we always conclude that dead is dead so how can we declare one bullet better at killing than another? We have kind of decided that maybe an Accubond would improve the killing odds of a marginal shot but we have nothing but speculation to base that on. Take a read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

 

[turbo54]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot a lot of animals with high powered rifles and the results of that experience tell me that hydrostatic shock does not exist. The wound cavity "stretches" and then rebounds which can cause tearing of tissues in close proximity but there is no shock wave effect propagating through the body damaging stuff outside the path of the bullet...I havent seen any damage that wasn't part of the wound cavity itself.
Bullets kill by hemorrhage, causing a loss of blood pressure, or by severing of the CNS. Only CNS hits guarantee instant incapacitation, again indicating a lack of all the claimed hydrostatic shock effects, otherwise heart shot animals ought to drop right where they are every time. They often do not, despite total destruction of the heart.
</div></div>

Right on the money.

I've yet to score an "instant incapacitation" shot on game by hitting the heart/lungs. In fact, these hits have always resulted in the critter (deer mostly) running 50-100 yards before their muscles run out of oxygen.

Terminally, having hit deer from 75-700 yards with the speer 150gr grand slam and the sierra 180gr matchking, I've never had an explosive amount of trauma at any range. The tissue surrounding the "wound channel" turns into jelly. Maybe as much as 2" away from the channel.

The noted bullets don't seem to expand (much) at any velocity between 2600fps and 1300fps, as exit holes are generally ~1/2" or less.

This is all with a 308.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I was trying to recover a 375 Chey-tac bullet undamaged so I filled a 30 gal plastic drum full of water. There was no top on the drum, I had a buddy lift me about 15ft above the drum with the front loader of my tractor. I fired a solid copper promo directly down into the drum of water expecting to be able to recover said promo. Well, I torched the thing off, it busted the barrel wide open from top to bottom, water went everywhere and I never did find the promo. There was a hole in the ground slightly off to the side of where the barrel was sitting, I never did find the promo and I haven't pulled this trick again.

I would say the force that did all the damage may have had something to do with what some folks say don't exist.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

I don't know what the He'll a promo is but I can't get my putter to type a
J in that word?????? There is two things I really hate. Computers and trying to recover 375 bullets by shooting down into a barrel of water!

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was trying to recover a 375 Chey-tac bullet undamaged so I filled a 30 gal plastic drum full of water. There was no top on the drum, I had a buddy lift me about 15ft above the drum with the front loader of my tractor. I fired a solid copper promo directly down into the drum of water expecting to be able to recover said promo. Well, I torched the thing off, it busted the barrel wide open from top to bottom, water went everywhere and I never did find the promo. There was a hole in the ground slightly off to the side of where the barrel was sitting, I never did find the promo and I haven't pulled this trick again.

I would say the force that did all the damage may have had something to do with what some folks say don't exist.
</div></div>

Of course hydraulic shock exists, if you shoot water...

Now, if you go shoot your trusty 9 mm loaded with HP bullets into water jugs, you will also see a lot of splash, vastly different from living tissue.

 

[Nortex]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Of course hydraulic shock exists, if you shoot water...

</div></div>

Yet the human body contains roughly 50-60% water, I believe velocity and SD of the particular projectile are key in this theory.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

The human body is about 70% water but living tissue is not a fluid and has not the same properties, quite different... go shoot a big piece of meat and ssome water jug of the same weght, vastly different results.

 

[eracer]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">P.O. Ackley wrote that book in the mid '50s, then updated it (that's where Vol I and II came) in the early '60s. That's more than 50 years ago... just saying

</div></div>PETA won't allow a study like that now. Too bad we allow them to have a say in it. Political correctness FTW, eh?

 

[eracer]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

A bit of humor...

Back in my younger days I worked on a shrimp boat, and blue crabs were the bane of my existence. I'm a pretty easy-going guy by nature, but I developed a true hatred of those crustaceans. Bordered on rage. Very strange...

Anyway, I used them for target practice quite often. My buddies and I would throw a bunch of them up on the bank of the canal and take turns shooting them with a .22 pistol, competing to see who could hit the most before they escaped into the water.

My point?

A crab has an exoskeleton which contains the internal organs - and a lot of liquid. A .22 round (especially the hypersonics) will basically vaporize a crab. A testament to the power of hydrostatic overpressure.

A vertebrate is very different, and reacts very differently to that kind of pressure. There are comparments in the human body - the cranium, the abdominal cavity, the thorax. But overall, a bullet does its job through neurologic or hemostatic trauma, not hydrostatic shock.

 

[Nortex]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The human body is about 70% water but living tissue is not a fluid and has not the same properties, quite different... go shoot a big piece of meat and ssome water jug of the same weght, vastly different results. </div></div>

I've shot plenty of deer and pigs with a lot of various rounds, on average the most trauma was caused by a 22-250 and 243 now there has to be some theory of the hydrostatic shock because if it was all energy larger rounds would cause more damage. Only other round that ever compared is a 7mm Rem mag pushing 140 gr Nosler BT's those things are nasty moving at 7mag velocities, but the general trauma in the area wasn't a whole lot bigger than the 250 just bigger entrance and exit holes and more shrapnel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

A few terms to prime the pump:


Viscosity

Elasticity

Elastic limit

Pressure wave

Propagation

Reflection

Dissipation

Deformation

Deflection


That should do for now...

 

[eracer]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few terms to prime the pump:


Viscosity <span style="color: #000099">(gets thicker as I get older)</span>

Elasticity <span style="color: #000099">(gets less as she gets older)
</span>
Elastic limit <span style="color: #000099">(what it would reach if I was with Carmen Electra)</span>

Pressure wave <span style="color: #000099">(about three beats per second)</span>

Propagation <span style="color: #000099">(Yep, it does that)</span>

Reflection <span style="color: #000099">(Only if I miss the target)</span>

Dissipation <span style="color: #000099">(only takes a few seconds at my age)</span>

Deformation <span style="color: #000099">(what happens when I miss the hole at high SPM's)
</span>
Deflection <span style="color: #000099">(same as above, but at lower SPM's)</span>


That should do for now... </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099">It should indeed! The pump is PRIMED!</span>

 

[Kiwi Greg]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

Recently I shot a couple of Red Deer, a Stag & Hind at 725 yards with my 375 Lil'Terminator & 400 grain Cutting Edge bullets, MV 2920.
Both were shot in the shoulder & the hind got two because the first was just behind the shoulder & the angle sucked,
I should have waited another few seconds & she would have fallen over, but hind sight is 20/20 as they say...
The damage the bullets caused is well out of proportion to anything I have ever seen, & everyone else that has seen the pictures.
I have no idea why the damage was so great, basically from neck to back legs on both sides & around the back as well.
We found bits of the nose in the both of them so they did expand.
All I can put it down to is shock, caused by speed, energy & bullet RPM, the energy at impact was around 4700 ftlbs.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Hydrostatic Shock Information

Martin Fackler (DoD Surgeon) and Evan Marshall have written heaps on incapacitation from various bullet profiles and have documented extensive autopdy reports showing what works and how it happens.

Its all still available,....