Night Vision I can’t decide which IR Laser

[aslrookie]

I’m on the struggle bus with this one. I need two IR lasers: one for my 11.5” 5.56 and 8.5” 300blk.

I think something like a perst 4 would be pretty cool to have that powerful of a laser, but it’s not like I’m mounting this on a LR rifle with a PVS30. My shots would be within range of a civilian legal IR laser capabilities. Also, the perst 4 has a proprietary connector, so you can’t use a dual switch in conjunction with a weapon light.

Every video I see the ATPIAL C illuminator looks damn near useless past 25-50 yards. The DBAL D2 looks huge, and the DBAL A3 is the same price as the D2 but with split performance between D2 and ATPIAL.

I also considered something like a DBAL I2 and use a SF M300V, but the white light lumens is less than a pistol light.

I’m so torn. After dropping $5k on nods, can’t swing 2 MAWLs. I’d honestly rather buy another set of nods than 2 MAWLs.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@aslrookie Here is you an option. Civi Dbal A3 married to a Luna ElIR-3 on left. One press of Untiy Taps Pro button lights up Illuminator and IR Point together. This setup mimics pretty much what a PEQ LA5 B will do. All in costs setting this up is about $1,750 ish. Will save you about a $1,000 bucks. It will smoke a Mawl in performance.

 

[cake5150]

For the $ spent, a Perst-3 would be hard to beat. You don't HAVE TO keep the illuminator and aimer on super high intensity levels, but if you need the extra horsepower (especially on the illuminator) then it is nice to have. Its switch is very nice too. I had the full power DBAL-A2 years ago and I would say I'd still take the Perst over it. Much cheaper than a Mawl, too. The Perst 4 looks nice, but I haven't actually used that one so can't comment.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@cake5150

I agree. Don't own one but have checked them out. They are well worth the money and an excellent unit. Wish they would make adjusting the Illuminator a little more friendly and also put an overide button on the Vis Point, however, they are still an excellent option for a full power unit. Much better than a MAWL.

 

[wigwamitus]

Some people are interested in power. I am not. I use my lasers for snap engagements inside 150yds ... usually inside 100yds. I'm interested in having a tiny beam, i.e. small beam divergence, to enable most precise aiming. Right now, I have 7 aiming lasers, 2 of them have tiny beams, the others don't. It turns out, the two with tiny beams happen to be FP, but I don't see why there would be a correlation.
So, my hunt is for LP tiny beam divergence lasers. Not all lasers show the beam divergence, like the Persts.

 

[cake5150]

Some people are interested in power. I am not. I use my lasers for snap engagements inside 150yds ... usually inside 100yds. I'm interested in having a tiny beam, i.e. small beam divergence, to enable most precise aiming. Right now, I have 7 aiming lasers, 2 of them have tiny beams, the others don't. It turns out, the two with tiny beams happen to be FP, but I don't see why there would be a correlation.
So, my hunt is for LP tiny beam divergence lasers. Not all lasers show the beam divergence, like the Persts.

Agreed with this as far as the aimer goes. Low (or variable that will let you get to <1 mW) power and low divergence will have minimal blooming and won't obscure the target. I use the living shit out of my VITAL-2 (0.7mW Class 1) lasers, they just work and the ones I have are very low divergence units. Where I like to have the power on tap is in the illuminator, which is MASSIVELY lacking in the VITAL-2. The Perst-3 makes up for that in spades, but cost considerably more. For an all around laser/illuminator, I'm awfully impressed w/ the Perst-3.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@wigwamitus

I agree that small beam divergence is nice.

Running a Neutral Density Filter on the full power units pointer does result in a much finer dot for more precise shots, but I am not sure if that is really a "technically small beam divergence". You could probably answer that better than me.

However, for the 150 yard and down snap shooting I have found a full power Illuminator superimposed on a small non bloomed out IR Dot created by a Neutral Density Filter does provide for a pretty accurate shooting solution.

Basically another way of saying it is: I like a strong Illuminator and low power point.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

What optic are you running? My 11.5s and shorter quickly start running out of rail for visible light, IR light, laser, etc.

I don't do nested cans on the shorties, since I sometimes want the flashbang effect with each shot - though usually not while on NODs.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I got a DD MK 18 10.3" with Flir PTS 233 with 3X 62mm TPL Germanium magnifier = 1.5 x native x 3 x Magnifier = 4.5 new native magnification (on top of 3/4" riser) then Taps Pro Switch, then Dbal A3 then Troy Flip Down Tritium Battle sights. Works and fits perfect. I also do same on longer rifles.

 

[aslrookie]

I have a LMT 11.5" upper with a Romeo 4S on a Unity Tactical FAST mount. The FAST mount has built in irons, so I voted my KAC sights off the island for weight/rail space. The only way I would see the PERST being an option is if I went PERST-3 and did not use the tape switch. I don't like using clicky tailcaps for weapon lights. My small hands don't like that kind of positioning lol.

I care more about the illuminator performance than the laser being a lightsaber which is why the DBAL D2 is appealing to me. The PERST-3 looks almost just as wide as the D2 but a little thinner. The FAST mount is tall enough to clear any of the lasers, so that isn't really a factor for me.

@WhereNow&How does that setup perform better than a DBAL D2? I could see using a DBAL I2 instead of an A3 for that setup. But I hear the I2 is junk and loses zero?

 

[WhereNow&How]

@WhereNow&How does that setup perform better than a DBAL D2? I could see using a DBAL I2 instead of an A3 for that setup. But I hear the I2 is junk and loses zero?

Yes it does. The Luna will way outdistance the D2 illumintor and focus much tighter. However the D2 is not a bad unit to have. But here is the $64 dollar question. Just how far out is a person realistically gonna use a LAM to shoot.

I personally like the Civi Dbal A3 but its got a denutted Illuminator so I fix that with a Luna. The Dbal A3 is the only MFLAM I am aware of that has an Override Vis Point feature to instantly put you to Vis Point and White Light if that is something you value.

 

[ddavis]

FWIW I ordered a Perst 3 Nov 18th directly from Zenitco Russia. It arrived in NY Dec 26th and has been there since. No resolution from USPS. Puts me in a shitty spot. Something to consider.

-Dan

 

[TheGerman]

Civi grade lasers/illum are absolute shit tier garbage.

Outside of the MAWL which uses some sort of phased technology to skirt around the FDA restrictions you are stuck with 3 choices:

- Get a MAWL (I dont like the layout, button layout nor the offset way it mounts)
- Shit tier civi garbage you'll never be happy with and is basically only good for LARPing
- Secondary market PEQ15, PEQ2A or DBAL A2/PEQ15A (upside; its full power and can be found for the same/less price than a new civi version PEQ15. downside; no warranty on it)

The Luna is a fantastic illuminator once 'fixed' but under the time constraints of shooting at night, trying to use it as a illum and then focus the beam to use it like a laser is retarded. Additionally, the mount for it is really lacking.

Don't look at the IR output of units based on how far you think you'll shoot. PID of a target or seeing whats out there around you when needed is worth the cost of a great illuminator.

For reference, the guns I use all of the time are set up this way:

KAC CQB
EoTech XPS3 on KAC SR25 ring riser
PEQ15 at 12 o clock with tape switch at 2 o clock

KAC Carbine
Aimpoint T1 on KAC riser
PEQ15A at 12 o clock with tape switch at 2 o clock
Surefire M300V at 3 o clock with click tailcap for positive control of light/seperation from a tape switch

 

[aslrookie]

Civi grade lasers/illum are absolute shit tier garbage.

Outside of the MAWL which uses some sort of phased technology to skirt around the FDA restrictions you are stuck with 3 choices:

- Get a MAWL (I dont like the layout, button layout nor the offset way it mounts)
- Shit tier civi garbage you'll never be happy with and is basically only good for LARPing
- Secondary market PEQ15, PEQ2A or DBAL A2/PEQ15A (upside; its full power and can be found for the same/less price than a new civi version PEQ15. downside; no warranty on it)

The Luna is a fantastic illuminator once 'fixed' but under the time constraints of shooting at night, trying to use it as a illum and then focus the beam to use it like a laser is retarded. Additionally, the mount for it is really lacking.

Don't look at the IR output of units based on how far you think you'll shoot. PID of a target or seeing whats out there around you when needed is worth the cost of a great illuminator

The D2 seems to even beat out the MAWL, this would probably be the best civi option, right? My only concern with second hand FP units is it would have to come from someone I trust. My luck, I would be scammed by DOD and arrested lol

 

[TheGerman]

The D2 seems to even beat out the MAWL, this would probably be the best civi option, right? My only concern with second hand FP units is it would have to come from someone I trust. My luck, I would be scammed by DOD and arrested lol

I dont know about the D2. Other than thinking why is this thing so fucking gigantic, I've never used one.

 

[TheGerman]

@wigwamitus

I agree that small beam divergence is nice.

Running a Neutral Density Filter on the full power units pointer does result in a much finer dot for more precise shots, but I am not sure if that is really a "technically small beam divergence". You could probably answer that better than me.

However, for the 150 yard and down snap shooting I have found a full power Illuminator superimposed on a small non bloomed out IR Dot created by a Neutral Density Filter does provide for a pretty accurate shooting solution.

Basically another way of saying it is: I like a strong Illuminator and low power point.

This. Other than using it as a designator and/or to let others know whose laser is who's, the full power death star beam is actually not very helpful with aiming due to the amount of bloom the beam gives out and the rediculous bloom/splash on a target it has.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@TheGerman "but under the time constraints of shooting at night, trying to use it as a illum and then focus the beam to use it like a laser is retarded. Additionally, the mount for it is really lacking."


You lost me a bit right here I think. I read that sentence to mean someone using it to Illuminate and then tightening it down to use as a shooting point. If that is a correct interpretation, and someone tried doing that, yes they are retarded.

Now the way I set them up. The Luna is slaved as an Illuminator to the Dbal A3 IR Pointer. One press and both come on. I can assure you it is as fast as any system out there. Actually faster in some ways if you really want to tailor your Illuminator beam for site specific distance and ambient lighting conditions.

The Rheostat for power adjustment and the Bezel on the Luna are super easy to adjust due to them being more accessible and slightly larger than most most full power units.

I do wish the Luna ELIR-3's were made out of aluminum. That is the only upgrade I see that would make them better. But Insight/Eotech makes their MFLAM'S out of plastic as well and having to put a plastic tie strap (comes with the PEQ kit) over a MFLAM just don't cut it with me.

 

[WhereNow&How]

This. Other than using it as a designator and/or to let others know whose laser is who's, the full power death star beam is actually not very helpful with aiming due to the amount of bloom the beam gives out and the rediculous bloom/splash on a target it has.

Its also good for smoking the bad guys NODS.

 

[TheGerman]

Its also good for smoking the bad guys NODS.

Or giving the ocassional unsuspecting goatfucker, itchy eye syndrome

 

[TheGerman]

@TheGerman "but under the time constraints of shooting at night, trying to use it as a illum and then focus the beam to use it like a laser is retarded. Additionally, the mount for it is really lacking."


You lost me a bit right here I think. I read that sentence to mean someone using it to Illuminate and then tightening it down to use as a shooting point. If that is a correct interpretation, and someone tried doing that, yes they are retarded.

Now the way I set them up. The Luna is slaved as an Illuminator to the Dbal A3 IR Pointer. One press and both come on. I can assure you it is as fast as any system out there. Actually faster in some ways if you really want to tailor your Illuminator beam for site specific distance and ambient lighting conditions.

The Rheostat for power adjustment and the Bezel on the Luna are super easy to adjust due to them being more accessible and slightly larger than most most full power units.

I do wish the Luna ELIR-3's were made out of aluminum. That is the only upgrade I see that would make them better. But Insight/Eotech makes their MFLAM'S out of plastic as well and having to put a plastic tie strap (comes with the PEQ kit) over a MFLAM just don't cut it with me.

Yep, with the Luna you can focus down the beam to where its a very strong laser. Some people in the past somehow think its a 2 for 1 thing, which its not. But they are also generally lacking a good laser, so I can see why this became a thing.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Or giving the ocassional unsuspecting goatfucker, itchy eye syndrome

You said it, I didn't .

 

[WhereNow&How]

@aslrookie "My luck, I would be scammed by DOD and arrested lol "

Here you go. Buy one and let us know how it works out. Then we will know if its GTG.

Steiner DBAL-A2 | eBay

<p>Steiner DBAL-A2. Condition is New. Shipped with USPS Priority Mail. I won’t ship overseas.</p>

www.ebay.com

 

[TheGerman]

@aslrookie "My luck, I would be scammed by DOD and arrested lol "

Here you go. Buy one and let us know how it works out. Then we will know if its GTG.

Steiner DBAL-A2 | eBay

<p>Steiner DBAL-A2. Condition is New. Shipped with USPS Priority Mail. I won’t ship overseas.</p>

www.ebay.com

Thats like 600$ too much.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Thats like 600$ too much.

They have and offer button. Offer $1,200.00 He's got like 9 of them. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

 

[TheGerman]

They have and offer button. Offer $1,200.00 He's got like 9 of them. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

The fact he has 9 of them and hes in San Diego kind of worries me.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I have 2 of these Triad C2’s and they work very well. The illuminate is actually quite better than an ANTIPAl C and they’re pretty good price.

US Night Vision Triad C2 Class 1 Green-IR Dual Beam Laser FDE (Tan) (0 | Night Vision Universe | Night Vision & Thermal Imaging Equipment

US Night Vision Triad C2 Class 1 Green-IR Dual Beam Laser FDE (Tan) (008766F) AUTHORIZED MASTER DEALER

nightvisionuniverse.com

 

[aslrookie]

I have 2 of these Triad C2’s and they work very well. The illuminate is actually quite better than an ANTIPAl C and they’re pretty good price.

US Night Vision Triad C2 Class 1 Green-IR Dual Beam Laser FDE (Tan) (0 | Night Vision Universe | Night Vision & Thermal Imaging Equipment

US Night Vision Triad C2 Class 1 Green-IR Dual Beam Laser FDE (Tan) (008766F) AUTHORIZED MASTER DEALER

nightvisionuniverse.com

Those are just rebranded holosuns. US NV just tried to play it off like they actually made it.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Those are just rebranded holosuns. US NV just tried to play it off like they actually made it.

Ah ok. I didn’t know that. Still, they work very well. ?‍

 

[Victor-TNVC]

This new adjustable power IR LAM to get some precise shots with no blooming user selectable levels will be released very soon. Incredibly durable and affordable. Hope the community will enjoy this new capability.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Those are just rebranded holosuns. US NV just tried to play it off like they actually made it.

Good to know. A buddy of mine has one of the FP models, and I was really damn impressed with the illuminator and laser on the FP unit. Shame about the proprietary tape switch.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@The King

Yes it is a nice new addition. However, it not being Waterproof and just "Water Resistant" is a potential problem for me.

I like electronics that are durable and can take the elements.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

They lost me at "splash proof."

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yep "splash proof" means you just might end up with a dot that has zero bloom, as in, invisible no dot.

That ain't something you would want to stake your life on. Neutral Density Filters work just fine for me on "100% Submersible Waterproof" Units

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Yep "splash proof" means you just might end up with a dot that has zero bloom, as in, invisible no dot.

That ain't something you would want to stake your life on. Neutral Density Filters work just fine for me on "100% Submersible Waterproof" Units

 

[Victor-TNVC]

And we didn't make it water proof for that type of affordability nor did we market it for those folks who need to take their weapon underwater.

It's water resistant which means it will survive a rain storm .

It's had quite the audience at Shot Show and below are some highlights many folks hete have messaged me about. Thanks for all the intersts guys!

Apologies for the late responses, as you can imagine Shot Show has been very busy. I will answer some of the questions on the new Tor-Mini IR VP **Please keep in mind we set out to manufacture a SIMPLE IR pointer with the least moving parts to insure it's affordable.*

Some of the highlights...

-Battery can be removed from the top knurled knob while the TOR is mounted, no need to remove to replace a battery which is a CR 1/3N. Also when replacing the battery, the unit remembers what power setting was last selected.

- Battery duration is a bit hard to get exact measures, with 3 power settings, but at constant on and max power (.7mW), the battery should last 24hrs +.

- No pressure switch capability but two large activation textured pads that works great with gloves and has a great feel. I worked very closely with several variations to insure the pressure pads work great with HG's, PDW's and long guns that are positioned the best we could for manipulation for both southpaws and righties.

-Height over bore is very low (don't have the exact height, but will get the dimension) and positioned in-line with the bore.

It sits below all FSP's and a small footprint to sit in front of FSP's and great with PDW's, SMG's and other real estate crimped rails.

-Holes on the side are indeed for the rail screws for different positions and other holes for windage/elevation. We did not go "clicks" like that for a few reasons to minimize more moving parts with springs, etc, but worked a great deal with very good tension adjustments. Thousands of rounds combining, HG's, rifles (556 and .308's) with no zero hold issues. (I will get the exact MOA per full turn from the engineers when I get back from the show)

-The activation of the TOR-MIN IR VP laser is pretty nifty and works well. Press and hold either the left of right pads for approx 2.5 seconds and the laser cycles .2mW, .4 and .7. If you constantly hold the pad down the laser continues to step through each intensity until you let go at your power choice. Takes about a full second to step through each power level while holding down the left or right pads.

-Momentary on is a press and hold for approx 3/4 of a second and constant on is a quick press and release.

-The unit is water resistant and not submersible.

As I mentioned we have around a dozen units in-hand for the show and as I write very large QTY's are being produced. Looking at Feb/March release.

We will have a special Shot Show add to cart special for the initial release.

You will also see this new LAM at many dealer locations with a large dealer network being established. Even though we are the exclusive distributor we are planning to offer it to many dealers.

If you are a dealer, please give us an email to sales at tnvc dot com. By the looks of Shot, many dealers are signing up to offer it. In closing, we really hope you may like this simple IR LAM. There was a large void IMHO for many years for this type of pointer that offers simplicity, durability and affordability. So you all know, I actually started this product design with Laser Devices many years ago up in Monterrey Ca. before Steiner acquired them. Very happy and excited we finally got it done.

 

[WhereNow&How]

And we didn't make it water proof for that type of affordability nor did we market it for those folks who need to take their weapon underwater.

It's water resistant which means it will survive a rain storm .


-The unit is water resistant and not submersible.

Just to be clear. Are you saying that it is water proof from any hard continuous rain storm.

Say all day out in very heavy constant rain and it will not take in water and fail. If I knew for sure it would not fail under those conditions it would add a lot of confidence to a purchase.

In other words waterproof for everything except being submerged.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Agreed. I don't need a submersible IR laser, but it is gonna get wet - and sometimes stay wet.

If it offers a reasonable degree of water resistance, I'll need a few. If not, it will be a great addition of those that treat their guns and gear like new girlfriends.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Victor-TNVC Does it have a Laser or LED based diode?

 

[CBDR]

@aslrookie Here is you an option. Civi Dbal A3 married to a Luna ElIR-3 on left. One press of Untiy Taps Pro button lights up Illuminator and IR Point together. This setup mimics pretty much what a PEQ LA5 B will do. All in costs setting this up is about $1,750 ish. Will save you about a $1,000 bucks. It will smoke a Mawl in performance.


View attachment 7230629

View attachment 7230638

Nice setup.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@CBDR Thanks. It works very well.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Just to be clear. Are you saying that it is water proof from any hard continuous rain storm.

Say all day out in very heavy constant rain and it will not take in water and fail. If I knew for sure it would not fail under those conditions it would add a lot of confidence to a purchase.

In other words waterproof for everything except being submerged.

Yes, sir NO issues in hard rain at all. Thank you

 

[Victor-TNVC]

@Victor-TNVC Does it have a Laser or LED based diode?

Laser based. Thank you.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Victor-TNVC Thanks for those clarifications. You might well have a winner.

 

[Runnineh]

Check out tacswap, there's been a bunch of ir lasers on there lately.

 

[SKRUBD]

I’m on the struggle bus with this one. I need two IR lasers: one for my 11.5” 5.56 and 8.5” 300blk.

I think something like a perst 4 would be pretty cool to have that powerful of a laser, but it’s not like I’m mounting this on a LR rifle with a PVS30. My shots would be within range of a civilian legal IR laser capabilities. Also, the perst 4 has a proprietary connector, so you can’t use a dual switch in conjunction with a weapon light.

@aslrookie They Make a dual switch connector for the perst 4 so that you can use their 500 lumen kersch 2 weapon light with it now. theres a video on youtube that tells you which dual switch to order 1 works with older perst 4's and another works with the new ones coming out as of this year. if the bottom side is engraved its the new model

 

[Markhammett]

I have a Luna and love it. Use it more for illuminating than anything though.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I have a Luna and love it. Use it more for illuminating than anything though.

Yep, the Luna will get it done anyway you want to. They throw a mighty fine beam.

 

[Markhammett]

I agree. Versatile and economic.

 

[Mattyh921]

I had a perst 4, it was an excellent laser but the lack of an illuminator cause me to trade it for a dbal I2 9007 model with the IR laser and illuminator instead of the visible laser

 

[Mortalpawn]

Back to the original post, assuming the MAWL is out of reach, probably your best option in a laser/illuminator is the DBAL D3 which is a bit over $1000.

I recommend a laser-illuminator combo on a single button. I personally don't think laser-only is a good option for either indoor or outdoor work. Indoors you will certainly find rooms with little ambient light where an illuminator is critical. Similarly outdoors you need an illuminator to ID targets for anything beyond 20 yards. A separate illuminator and laser gets complex to run if you want to maintain any IR/light/laser discipline.

Run an IR/illuminator on one button and white light on the other button on your gun.

The DBAL D3 is a bit heavy, but the illuminator can be adjusted between 2-30 degree cone and has good reach out to several hundred yards. Yes the MAWL is better, but its also more than twice the price.