I need some experienced .45 acp loader advice

JaysonF

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 6, 2012
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Fernley, NV
Ok, so I'm looking for a new load in my hk45 tactical. I'm looking for a load that is kind of a jack of all trades. I want it to be a 230 grain plated ball, using titegroup and maxing out at 4.7 grains. I've had bad luck in the past, and I want this to be a pleasurable gun for others to shoot as well. So this load needs to be something I can throw a 230 grain jhp for defensive purposes, but will be my practice / competition round. I would love to be able to use my reload for uspsa or idpa. These shots were taken from about the 10 yard line. I want to know, with these results, what would you advise?
I used this same setup with my former fnx-45T with good results:
230 grain x-treme JRN
4.6 grain titegroup
Fgmm large pistol primers
1.230" COAL
Assorted brass

For my hk45T, these are the loads I worked up:
230 grain x-treme JRN
4.3-4.7 grains of titegroup
FGMM large pistol primers
1.210", 1.230", 1.250" COAL
Assorted brass

The temperature was 95 f
Altitude is about 4100f
The gun can outshoot me, and any pulls were my doing (2 monsters and blazing sun)
"ER" means chronograph error
I shot 5 rounds of each charge and length through the chrono and 5 rounds into each target.
Here are pictures of my results: photo 3.JPGphoto 4.JPGphoto 1.JPGphoto 2.JPGphoto 3.jpg
 
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I like to use 165gr CorBon 45 ACP because of the test I did shooting at two separate milk jugs filled with water.

Do the test yourself and see what happens to each jug...

If you ever use hand loaded ammo for self defense you may appear to be a trigger happy killer to some jury member.

Factory ammo is viewed as a standard over the counter item and not some choice of a crazed killer.
 
If you ever use hand loaded ammo for self defense you may appear to be a trigger happy killer to some jury member.

Factory ammo is viewed as a standard over the counter item and not some choice of a crazed killer.

Curious if you or anyone can site a single legal case where a Police Department or private citizen has incurred any sort of legal ramifications due to a modified gun or hand loads. The only possible time I can ever see a modification or use of something non-standard being an issue is where someone is hurt because of your actions due to something being faulty.

I can't find one single instance.
 
Jayson, I'd say that you may want to try some other powder combos to see if they work out any better for you. I've had good luck with Bullseye and AA#5 in 45 ACP. My Bullseye load is definitely a bit more accurate than that at 10 yards. I use my 1911 for load development and confirm them in my FNX (I know you this replaced your FNX). Without a rest my groups are tighter at 10 and with a rest they shoot a nice ragged hole in the target. I would get you my specs for the Bullseye, but I'm not going to be home for a few a few weeks. I've shot the Bullseye load with plated and jacketed bullets with equal success.
 
Have you tried either 200 swc Bayou bullets or Zero 230 FMJ. either bullet with 4.6 grains of WST will do magic.

Plated bullets can be finicky about OAL and/or crimp. titegroup is good powder but burns very hot and smokes.
 
I would try a 200gr Hornady HAP bullet head with the titegroup. Its a jacketed bullet and would have less recoil then the 230gr. Very accurate as well. Remember not to use lead bullets in the HK polygonal barrel. Its a pain in the ass to clean out after a couple hundred rounds.
 
thank you all for your input, are there any powders which take up a little more case capacity? I like varget because I can't overload the case. titegroup takes up very little case space and I want to move to a different powder eventually, but I have 6lbs out of an 8lb jug.
Is 800 fps going to be good for 3 gun / uspsa / idpa with a 230 grain?
 
I did a gun specific load work up for my sons hk .45. With 5.8 grns Titegroup behind a 185 gr. plated H.P. he can put 10 shots inside a 4 in. circle at 7 yds. I think it would be a fair defensive load and it's easy to shoot. I also load Unique. It's a little fluffier, but you can still double charge, if you're not careful.
 
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I wouldn't use lead, it's just way too messy. But thank you for the heads up. I have a couple thousand rounds of 230, so I will stay with them. I really like the recoil impulse with 230 grain projectiles.
 
OK then Try 6.0 Unique, with the 230 plated. Sorry, that,s my old load for my 45s. I tend to buy and load by the thousand. I moved down in bullet weight to try the 200s and 185s and managed to find some titegroup during the shortage.
 
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740 fps is plenty to make major with a 230 for USPSA.

Get slow enough in burn rate to not be able to double charge, going to have a lot of unburnt powder and huge muzzle flash, increased muzzle flip.
Bigger question might be what other powders can you find?
 
Awesome, thank you for the power factor information. I had no idea that JBM had that ability on their site. I will take a look into unique, I have heard some really good reviews about it, I just haven't had an opportunity to utilize that particular powder.
With my current loads, weights, charges, my question is, what would you guys suggest either going with or continuing my testing with to find the right load for what I am looking for? In my situation and my particular components, what would you guys suggest moving forward with?
 
If you could find W231/HP38 it works well for .45 ACP. I use 5.3 grns of W231 in my Colt Commander. Its not too snappy, doesnt stress the gun unecessarily while shooting for practice, and is plenty accurate. As a ball powder it flows through a powder measure consistently dropped.

Probably not what Id want to use for SD but not a wrong choice.

I kind of have a different train of thought on what constitutes a good SD round. Im more inclined to favor the bullet you can hit with rather than its power potential. Id rather get a slow round on target than have a fast bullet miss.

Thinking this way perhaps ball is a better choice than HP. A slow HP may not penetrate where as a slow ball round may weasel its way to completing the task at hand. My thinking goes against volumes of FBI data/real world experience.

Keep in mind handguns in a committed fight are better termed "just barely lethal" application of force. Where you hit is more important than how hard you hit it.

Practicing with what you carry may be important. Seems weird to me to practice with "range" ammo than carry "plus P". At least with .45 ACP its pretty forgiving as far as perceived recoil. Contrast it to the guy that practices with .38 special than loads his shooter with .357 magnums. His first thought after dropping the hammer on the .357 is going to be "What the fuck was that!"
 
Curious if you or anyone can site a single legal case where a Police Department or private citizen has incurred any sort of legal ramifications due to a modified gun or hand loads. The only possible time I can ever see a modification or use of something non-standard being an issue is where someone is hurt because of your actions due to something being faulty.

I can't find one single instance.

I remember years ago a case in Montgomery County, MD of a cop shooting that went to trial and the prosecution showed his private purchase shotgun sling with the 20 holder built into it mounted on his service shotgun and tried to convince the jury that the sling showed he was prone to violence.

I found this on another forum by M. Ayoob pointing to an article on THR.



Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver’s door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy’s Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5” barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,” used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

As always YMMV.
 
"If you ever use hand loaded ammo for self defense you may appear to be a trigger happy killer to some jury member.

Factory ammo is viewed as a standard over the counter item and not some choice of a crazed killer. "

Massad Ayoob has been runnin' this crap for years, this does not happen in the VAST majority of cases, carry what you shoot.
 
My favorite load for uspsa is clays powder behind a 200gr lswc from my hk45c. The lswc come from lucky 13 bullets in Kernersville nc. Very little leading and it comes out very easily. I was shooting production though so probably no help.
 
Thank you,mr. Schramm,, for the research. It's always been my thought that if a person wants to avoid possible prosecution in a self defense case, the only sure way is to let the assailant kill you. I' m with pmclaine on using what I can hit with. At least at trial, my lawyer can argue that I was using target rounds and didn't really want to hurt anybody, seeing as I have no record of violence. There was that one speeding ticket, and since I own guns I MUST be a sleeper natural born killer tats just never been caught.
 
I can see the gears of prosecution working

1. You used reloads to save money

2. Therefore you must be poor

3. If you are poor you have nothing worth stealing

4. Therefore you have no reason to carry a gun

5. Therefore your decision to carry a gun when you are poor with no property to steal means you must be a crazed killer wanna be.

Defense - "Objection! But sir, Forget about property isnt this mans life worth protection?"

Prosecution - "Really? Didnt we demonstrate hes poor? Who gives a rats ass about his life?"

Defense - "Objection Withdrawn"
 
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I would rather have a tried, tested and familiar load as a personal defense round. I have had a few Winchester rounds which were squibs. I know what my ammo is and how it will act. Something like that would be a potentially fatal experience. I know most manufacturers are reliable, and I only run hornady ammo now, but I want the assurance of my ammo, that I created, to be my lifeline.
 
I carry Federal HST 230gr in my .45. I have found no other hollow point that will open up like it does. Unfortunately, the projectiles are not available for hand loaders, thus me buying them ready to shoot over the counter. They run 850 fps out of my 5" 1911.

For IDPA and USPSA, I load 230gr RN Bayou Bullets. They are coated cast lead and will not foul a hexagonal rifled barrel. I use 4.2 grains of WST under them @ 1.245" long to make 750 fps which makes Major PF with no problem. You need at least 718 fps to make Major PF. Not quite as strong as my carry HSTs, but I am not beating the gun as hard as factory ammo would when shooting competition, either. I have about 30,000 rounds through my 1911, and it is still as tight as it was new.

The problem with handloading .45 ACP is the enormous case volume. Most pistol burn rate powders out there may only fill the case 1/2 way at most. If you run a fluffier slower burning powder to fill up the case, you will encounter a lot of muzzle flash and unburnt powder with the accompanying increased recoil. Titegroup burns very hot, which makes for a very consistent and complete powder ignition, even with so much left over case volume in .45. Titegroup has one of the lowest ES and SD figures that I have ever seen fired from a .45 case. You can double and/or triple charge a case with Titegroup in .45, though, so make sure your powder drop is consistent. Titegroup sucks under naked cast lead because it smokes so bad due to its high burn temperature vaporizing the base of a lead bullet. The coated Bayou cast bullets keep the smoke down pretty good with Titegroup. WST is cooler burning, and has ES and SD figures that aren't too bad, but not as good as Titegroup. WST will smoke a lot less under uncoated cast lead as compared to Titegroup.
 
I carry Federal HST 230gr in my .45. I have found no other hollow point that will open up like it does. Unfortunately, the projectiles are not available for hand loaders, thus me buying them ready to shoot over the counter. They run 850 fps out of my 5" 1911.

For IDPA and USPSA, I load 230gr RN Bayou Bullets. They are coated cast lead and will not foul a hexagonal rifled barrel. I use 4.2 grains of WST under them @ 1.245" long to make 750 fps which makes Major PF with no problem. You need at least 718 fps to make Major PF. Not quite as strong as my carry HSTs, but I am not beating the gun as hard as factory ammo would when shooting competition, either. I have about 30,000 rounds through my 1911, and it is still as tight as it was new.

The problem with handloading .45 ACP is the enormous case volume. Most pistol burn rate powders out there may only fill the case 1/2 way at most. If you run a fluffier slower burning powder to fill up the case, you will encounter a lot of muzzle flash and unburnt powder with the accompanying increased recoil. Titegroup burns very hot, which makes for a very consistent and complete powder ignition, even with so much left over case volume in .45. Titegroup has one of the lowest ES and SD figures that I have ever seen fired from a .45 case. You can double and/or triple charge a case with Titegroup in .45, though, so make sure your powder drop is consistent. Titegroup sucks under naked cast lead because it smokes so bad due to its high burn temperature vaporizing the base of a lead bullet. The coated Bayou cast bullets keep the smoke down pretty good with Titegroup. WST is cooler burning, and has ES and SD figures that aren't too bad, but not as good as Titegroup. WST will smoke a lot less under uncoated cast lead as compared to Titegroup.

This, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.
 
By the way, I use a simple procedure for avoiding a double charge. My primed empties start in a Glad food container. They get a charge, then placed in the loading tray, ready for a bullet. Not tray-charge-tray.

I run it through a dillon powder check at stage 3 and I also visually check. The risk for me is usually during load development as I have them laid out in the tray. I will try your method, now.
 
You have too many intended purposes for this round.

Competition / range ammo should be 167 to 172 power factor (velocity * bullet weight). This gets you just over the minimums for USPSA and IDPA, saves a lot of wear and tear on your gun, and allows you to run lighter springs which helps further with recoil management.

Defensive ammo should be closer to 200 Power Factor. Further, if you buy factory JHPs and shoot them slowly......the JHP will not fully expand.

I would not make my own defensive ammo either. Doesn't look good in a court of law if it comes to that. Factory defensive ammo is also flash suppressed while your stuff is going to give off a huge ball of flame.
 
You have too many intended purposes for this round.

Competition / range ammo should be 167 to 172 power factor (velocity * bullet weight). This gets you just over the minimums for USPSA and IDPA, saves a lot of wear and tear on your gun, and allows you to run lighter springs which helps further with recoil management.

Defensive ammo should be closer to 200 Power Factor. Further, if you buy factory JHPs and shoot them slowly......the JHP will not fully expand.

I would not make my own defensive ammo either. Doesn't look good in a court of law if it comes to that. Factory defensive ammo is also flash suppressed while your stuff is going to give off a huge ball of flame.

I'm starting to realize this as well. I think I'll just settle for a consistent 750fps for comp / target loads and I'll keep the defensive rounds in regular rotation. After reading this information, and speaking with an old school competitor, I'll create just the comp / target loads. Defensive ammo isn't expensive and the higher end stuff is held to a high enough standard. The recoil wouldn't be off that much anyways.
However, just for my info, would a 750fps jhp have the capability to reliably expand? The defensive rounds I have average 950 or so, and the recoil is hardly more than one of my target rounds.
I guess I'll need to get some ballistic gelatin.
 
Curious if you or anyone can site a single legal case where a Police Department or private citizen has incurred any sort of legal ramifications due to a modified gun or hand loads. The only possible time I can ever see a modification or use of something non-standard being an issue is where someone is hurt because of your actions due to something being faulty.

I can't find one single instance.

Yeah if it comes down to that, your lawyer sucks.
 
"If you ever use hand loaded ammo for self defense you may appear to be a trigger happy killer to some jury member.

Factory ammo is viewed as a standard over the counter item and not some choice of a crazed killer. "

Massad Ayoob has been runnin' this crap for years, this does not happen in the VAST majority of cases, carry what you shoot.

It only had to happen in ONE case, yours, to make it critical.
 
My old USPSA load was 5.8 grains of 231 under a 200 gr LSWC.

But since I stopped shooting it seriously, the lowered the required power factor, so now it looks like 5.4 - 5.5 grains of 231 under the same bullet is all that is needed.

I have one pound of Clays and some 230 LRN to try for a light load for steel shooting. No power factor, just hit the steel as quickly as you can. :)