I need some help making a decision

[DernHumpus]

I am looking for a do-it-all rifle/caliber for my coyote and deer hunting needs. In Iowa, this needs to be .243 or bigger. Before I took to rifle hunting deer I used my Larue 18" Stealth a lot shooting 75 gr hornadys.

Also, I do a lot of steel shooting from 50-800 yards and want something I can continue to do this with. I love the bolt gun for the because it keeps the brass close.

I bought a 700SPS Tactical to go deer hunting with last year and love it. It has a 2.5-10x Vortex PST on it. I recently installed a timney trigger.

My problem is that I feel undergunned when going after coyotes with a bolt gun and also feel like 175gr sierras are overkill. I love my ARs and am really considering buying the Midway 264LBC barrel/bolt combo and making a 6.5 grendel.

Anyone been here before? These season overlap and I would really love to have one rifle riding shotgun in my truck all winter long.

The only things that are reallying pushing me to buy the 6.5 grendel are the semi-auto, less-recoil, and more reasonable round for coyotes. However, I do like my bolt-guns for ease of loading/unloading, and keeping the brass close.

If I were to build a Grendel it would be an 18" with a FF tube and collapsible stock. Simple, light, and easy to move in a vehicle.

Thanks for reading my mess of ideas

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: I need some help making a decision

I'm not sure why you would feel under-gunned with a bolt gun, but then again I'm not much of a bolt gun guy so I think the 6.5 Grendel idea is a good one. I would go with a 20" barrel to extract a little more out of the cartridge. Also I recommend a ground-up build or buying a complete upper just to keep the tolerances a little tighter. I've had good success hunting coyotes with 5.56 and since you already have a nice 5.56 upper using what you have may be a good choice. However, if you are just looking for a change or an excuse to buy some more toys I know Specialized Dynamics, one of the site sponsors, builds some bad-azz rigs for varmint/predator hunting. You should give them a call and see if they can help you out.

There are also some other AR15 cartridges that you may want to consider, including: .223/.24/6.5WSSM, 6.8SPC, 6MM WOA, and 6MM RAT.

Good luck and let us know what you choose.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Why not go with an AR10 in .243? I don't have much experience with 6.5G so can't comment on how it works for deer, but .243 is a great deer round, and will get you to 1000yd better. Factory ammo is more readily available too. I also think a lot depends what you want to do with the coyotes. At times a .243 can be a bit hard on pelts, so you may need to do a bit of sewing at times. Can't comment on how a 6.5GF would be, but I would imagine it would be a bit less harsh. The 6.5G doesn't have quite the punch of the .243, but the .243 would need the AR10 platform, not the AR15.

 

[Solid_Squirrel]

Re: I need some help making a decision

.264LBC and Grendel are different chambers FWIW.

 

[jhart2424]

Re: I need some help making a decision

I have been meaning to build a 6.5G. I think over all its a good shooting round for the AR15 platform. My problem is that i live in California and we have laws about hunting big game with lead. I have not found any lead free factory ammo and I don't load my own. So the coyotes and such just have to die by the .308 for now.

 

[armydog]

Re: I need some help making a decision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DernHumpus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My problem is that I feel undergunned when going after coyotes with a bolt gun and also feel like 175gr sierras are overkill. </div></div>

When Coyotes start packing M4's, then you'll feel outgunned.....

 

[country888]

Re: I need some help making a decision

I built a Grendel with a 18" barrel and love it. Shoots great and hits varmints hard with the 95gn v-max. The 120gn bullets work well for deer. My grendel is alittle heavy with a Magpul PRS stock and Vtac handguards. Just build it light and you should love it for deer and varmints. A buddy of mine built one with a 24" barrel and it shoots great and he is pleased with it also. Its a great round and light platform. The ar-10 is just bigger and heavy, but you can shoot .243 and .260 from them. But there is nothing wrong with the 6.5 grendel!

 

[DernHumpus]

Re: I need some help making a decision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Solid_Squirrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.264LBC and Grendel are different chambers FWIW. </div></div>

Are they different like .223 and 5.56/ 223 wylde? Can I shoot 6.5 grendel out of a 264LBC barrel with good results?

 

[Solid_Squirrel]

Re: I need some help making a decision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DernHumpus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Solid_Squirrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.264LBC and Grendel are different chambers FWIW. </div></div>

Are they different like .223 and 5.56/ 223 wylde? Can I shoot 6.5 grendel out of a 264LBC barrel with good results? </div></div>

I am pretty new to this, doing my first build. But as I understand it, yes, that's an apt comparison in a general sense. Grendel has a compound throat, where as .264 LBC does not. Grendel is SAAMI approved, and therefor has a ton of testing behind it, as I understand it. .264 LBC is not SAAMI approved. .264 LBC is optimized for the 123 grain Lapua Scenar. Grendel is meant to shoot as much different ammo as possible.

If you just want the best accuracy possible from the 123 grain Lapua Scenar, you might go with the .264 LBC over the Grendel*.

There is Lapua, AA, and .264 LBC brass, that is all the same brass, just with different headstamps, if I recall correctly. The case is the same, the chamber is not.

*ETA: I have not systematically compared groups to come to this conclusion, it's just the impression I get. I don't have a deep enough knowledge of the relevant theory to understand why one chamber might have more inherent accuracy, than the other, even with that one projectile. Even if that is true.

What I do feel comfortable in saying, is that Alexander did far more testing of his chamber, and with the help of big names in the industry. Look at .264 LBC as a wildcat - experimental. Grendel is no longer a wildcat status chamber.

Having said that, if you do want to do a wildcat chamber in a AR-15 package, I recommend you go with 6mm AR Turbo 40 improved, or a 6mmBRX. More velocity, more energy.

ETA: There is also a 6.5mmBRX, and various other similar cartridges, that can give more velocity for a given projectile weight, and therefor more energy, if you are willing to do reloading. I think you can even get factory ammo for some of them.

Grendel is very versatile when you take everything into consideration though, I'd like to build one, in addition to other 6mm and 6.5mm wildcats based off of Grendel or other cartridges.

http://6mmar.com/
http://www.6mmbr.com/6BRImproved01.html

 

[RWH82]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Have you looked at the 6.8 Remington. My brother takes deer and coyotes every year with his AR chamberd in 6.8

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Well- let's start off like this. The 6.5 Grendel is my recommendation for a lot of reasons. It will not fail to satisfy on Coyotes, deer, Zombies, paper etc.
6.5 Grendel hands down over 264 LBC- (I can tell you lots of stories) the LBC was a let down from the gate, Grendel ammo did not shoot well or function well in it, the Grendel was standardized with chamber dimensions for a reason and kept that way for a reason- it worked.
Alexander Arms recently let the Copyright go, and SAAMI accepted it. Lot's more Grendel options going to come out of it now.
Ammo is out there, Hornady, AA and more to come. Excellent brass, lots of projectiles, astounding accuracy, excellent performance, even out of shorter barrels.
Barrle length is up to you and 18'' will give you what you got to have within 6-800 yards. 20'' is minimum to make power factor For the Grendel, but practical hunting apps are going to be far less, so for weight's sake and maneuverability, the 18'' is perfectly fine.
What the Grendel does to deer is astounding, I have killed handfull of whitetails, and been on the scene for many others and a 120 Nosler BT is UGLY. The round also works well on many other critters, but shoots often at same or very close to POI as the 123 Lapua (Factory loads of course) the difference being the 120 doesn't group as tightly, the jacket being thinner and softer than the Lapua.
There are a lot of tricks to making a Grendel shoot to full potential, so if you go with a build, hit me up and I will give you the skinny on making it go band again and again as well as getting them on target with great repeatability.

 

[mjh30]

Re: I need some help making a decision

DernHumpus, I am one of those 264LBC owners, I built my rifle to shoot in a pairs tactical match, where one of us needed to shoot a carbine. As for the Grendel/264LBC comparision, all parties involved have their stories. The caliber can kill anything within reason, I have an 18 inch barrel, I think 20 is a more optimum barrel lenght, bullet weights anything from 107 to 123 works, I have even shot 140's out of mine with excellent results. I have used my rifle for deer and coyotes, more for coyotes, its compact, handy and gets the job done. I can ring steel at longer distances far better than I could with my 223 shooting 77smks.
Shes not pretty, but I think an 18 or 20 inch Grendel/264lbc is an excellent choice for what your needs are. Ammo is plentiful, the cartridge is excellent and its versatile.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Let me clarify- I don't want to offend any LBC owners- I was lead gunsmith at Alexander Arms for 3 years so I got a LOT of feedback from people who bought LBC over Grendel, and from the time it was released to the time I went elsewhere, the LBC had problems in LBC guns. I know a lot of other folks started making LBC chambered barrels because they could get the reamers, and because it wasn't copyrighted or regulated people could have reamers ground with whatever dimension they wanted and some tried steering it back towards original Grendel with regards to less FB over the Grendel etc.
SO- I don't want any LBC owners that have LBC's and love them jumping in swinging, BUT my experience was as I stated. It was the same with the 6.5 Sporter, 6.5 XXXX etc.
I always wanted to do the 6.5 WTF?? myself just to add to the confusion

Regardless it is an incredibly high performance round, I built myself several of them and value them and their performance highly!

 

[mjh30]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Beef, no worries, this is what the Hide is about, opinions. Dern, hope you have gotten some good ideas from the replies, my little rifle is a joy to shoot and provides me with the options that I need. As mentioned by Beef, I would recommend buying your barrel/ bolt or upper from a good manufacturer or builder.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Re: I need some help making a decision

I'm sure the same can be said for many guns but IMO ESPECIALLY the AR- get the best barrel you can cough up the money for, then build the gun around the barrel and you won't go wrong.
Lot of good stuff out there and we all tend to be charmed by trinkets and cool looking shiny objects, but when in search of accuracy, focus on quality.
I'm working on a Grendel tutorial to help out the homebuilder in my non-existent spare time. Will post pics of some of my stuff as time allows. I LOVE the Grendel in a bolt gun too, one of my many passions! Makes a dandy compliment to an AR.

 

[mjh30]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Beef, thats probably going to be my next project, I have a couple of left-handed rugrats that need a handy lttle deer gun in the next year or two. I figured a while ago, this was a great cartridge for that very purpose. Dern as mentioned by Beef, decide what you want and go from there, my rifle may not be as pretty as others, but it was built with only one purpose, to shoot accurately. There are some quality barrel makers out there, I have seen people spend more money on accoutrements than their barrel. Doesn't make any sense to me, if you are looking for a quality upper, email Scott at Specialized dynamics, a Hide sponsor and builder of some very accurate uppers.
Marty

 

[BCP]

Re: I need some help making a decision

6.5 grendel looks good to me. only thing that irks me is parts/brass cost and availability but that should get better with time. If I had $$$ to spend on an in-between AR I would certainly have one.

 

[country888]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Beef where you at in VA? The Grendel is a great round and is very accurate. I havn't spent as much time shooting mine as I would like to have, but I do what I can.

 

[DernHumpus]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Thanks for the insight guys. I'm not sure what I am going to do yet. I may just keep shooting the 308 for a while, I haven't been playing with the toys I have enough to justify buying another for the meantime.

Especially since for the cost of an upper this thing would have a stock and BDM.

Id say a variant is definitely in the future though. I'm tired of getting blown around the in the wind and didn't do enough research when I bought the 308 thinking it would do worlds better than .223.

 

[ledmach11969]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Check out (AR10) DPMS 6.5 creedmoor 24" 1-8.5 twist. It's fast, accurate, and gets the job done in coyotes all the way up to elks. 6.5 creedmoor gives you distance up to 1100 yards+. Check out YouTube videos. I just got one and I got some really good plans. Check out the caliber in 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[Solid_Squirrel]

Re: I need some help making a decision

I agree, if you're willing to go to the large frame ARs, 6.5 Creedmore looks like the hot ticket. But assuming you stayed with the -15, have you considered Beowulf? According to AA's figures, the 400g Hawk JSP out of a 24" barrel produces well over 1.5 ft/tons of energy. It seems perfect for hunting.

 

[DernHumpus]

Re: I need some help making a decision

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Solid_Squirrel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, if you're willing to go to the large frame ARs, 6.5 Creedmore looks like the hot ticket. But assuming you stayed with the -15, have you considered Beowulf? According to AA's figures, the 400g Hawk JSP out of a 24" barrel produces well over 1.5 tons of energy. It seems perfect for hunting. </div></div>

I'm not looking to kill anything bigger than a whitetail. I want a coyote/deer/800 yard steel gun all in one.

I'll check out the DPMS. I didn't know they were offering one in 6.5Creedmoor

Do I need 24" gun to take advantage of the 6.5 Creedmoor? I'd really like to keep it to 20" max.

I assume this is DPMS's only offering. 24" or nothing?

 

[Solid_Squirrel]

Re: I need some help making a decision

With that in mind, I think one of the 6.5mm cartridges makes the most sense. Small or large frame.

 

[IronSights2011]

Re: I need some help making a decision

If you love the AR platform, go for an AR10. 308 is the perfect hunting round and you will be able to share the same caliber with a Remington 700. Since you already know ARs, I like to keep it simple. Also, I like to overlap calibers in order to buy ammo in bulk. Just my two cents.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Re: I need some help making a decision

Country, my house is over in Wythe county, bout n' hour from you. I know Lebanon well though, used to come through Lebanon/ St Paul for work there back in 90's when I was in college the first time. I love it out there.

I like guns in similar calibers as well, that's why I have AR's and a 700 in Grendel

They compliment one another well. Hopefully I can finish up my next Savage over Thanksgiving.