I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

[justme]

sizes of vintage sniper rifles in "as issued"form with the type of ammo that was given to them.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I got my then DCM Garand in 80 or 81, shot the crap out of it every since. When I was running sniper schools for the NG using M1C/D's I shot my M1 to the point I had sap boiling out of the hand guard.

It has a throat measureing 7, a muzzle of 1.75. I shot this group reciently using LC 62 Match brass, 46 grns of 4895, Fed LR primers and pulled 173s.

It was shot using the sling, in the prone position. As you can see its still 3 MOA, and capable os shooting 3 MOA, enough to clean the CMP-GSM Garand targets.

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I'd be very interested as well. I'd like to know what kind of groups people could expect, from say the Enfield No 4 Mark 1 T, or the Springfield 1903a4 sniper rifle. The Gibbs rifles I've shot lately were pretty darn good, and at 100 yards at least, were capable of about 1 1/2" groups from a bench. It was not my rifle, so no, I probably won't get to shoot it again in the future, but I've always been rather fascinated with WWII era sniper rifles. There is just something about their simplicity that really intrigues me. Hope others share as well.

 

[pvtsnowball82]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

This 10-shot group is from my recently-purchased Mosin Nagant 91/30, made in 1943 (Ishevsk) and since refurbished, it's in as-issued condition. Ammo is Sellier & Bellot 180gr SP. This group is with iron sights. Bayonet is not attached.

 

[Mike Miller]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

My Gibbs rifle, with a real Weaver 330c and handloads will shoot a 5-shot ragged hole at 100 yards. During the Vintage Sniper match at Camp Perry, 7 of my ten shots were through the 3" shot spotter at 600. The two nines I shot were just off the disk at 3 o'clock. This wasn't a fluke, my teammate also fired a 98 at 600 and he had never shot the rifle before the match.

 

[marduk185]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

not a real "sniper" rifle but had the pleasure of test firing a m1 garand clone/rebuild franken build once that shocked the piss out of me how tight it would shoot cruddy surplus gi 30'06. that thing off a 100 yard bench was grouping inside a ragged 1" all 8 rounds from the enbloc clip and repeated this feat several times. it just wasnt supposed to be able to do that in my estimations. shoulda never passed on buying that one but at the time had m1a aspirations. some vintage rifles must have really been shooters in their hayday.

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

What kind of groups can guns like the Enfield No 4 Mark 1T or the Mosin Nagant 1891/30 with the WWII period scope achieve at 100 yards? Assuming good ammo, and the shooter does his part.

 

[xarmor]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

This was from about a year ago. I used WWII vintage Frankford arsenal 30.06. This was from 100 yards outdoors. The scope is a m73B1 2.5 power weaver. The rifle had not been fired since the 2nd world war ended. I believe the rifle is 100% original and has never been messed with. Considering it has not been zeroed in 65 years it still seems to shoot decent.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

My Smith Corona 03A3 and my Pattern 14 Enfield are both sub-MOA rifles with match ammo. The CMP issues Hornady Match ammo with 168 AMAXs at CMP Games matches.

Given the current optics rules, a Weaver K4 will just make printing those sub-MOA groups consistently much easier.

Sub-MOA is a reasonable expectation for a good shooting bolt action Vintage Sniper rifle using match ammo, which luckily the CMP feeds them in the Games matches if chambered in 30-06.

There is another thread here where it is revealed that the CMP will be selling match grade ammo for other chamberings besides 30-06, which will also help other Vintage Sniper rifle shooters out.

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Thanks for the replies, and a cool set of pics with a VERY nice '03 A4. Sweet!

 

[armydog]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the current optics rules, a Weaver K4 will just make printing those sub-MOA groups consistently much easier.
</div></div>

I thought it was limited to a Weaver K 2.5, did they change it?

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

This was shot with my '44 No4T/No 32 scope at 100m using HPS "house issue" 174gr .303 ammo (their standard MKVII load):

Clicks on the scope are 1MOA....the two shots away from the main body of the group were one click adjustments.

Sorry it's not a ten shot....maybe I cna get round to this one day!

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Holy CRAP!!! That is an awesome looking rifle!!!! I love the box and all you have with it. I'd trade you a rifle package I have listed in the For Sale section today! Nice group, and great shooting. Love how nice you have the rifle maintained, and cared for. Thanks for sharing. Jason


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was shot with my '44 No4T/No 32 scope at 100m using HPS "house issue" 174gr .303 ammo (their standard MKVII load):

Clicks on the scope are 1MOA....the two shots away from the main body of the group were one click adjustments.

Sorry it's not a ten shot....maybe I cna get round to this one day!

</div></div>

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the current optics rules, a Weaver K4 will just make printing those sub-MOA groups consistently much easier.
</div></div>

I thought it was limited to a Weaver K 2.5, did they change it? </div></div>

K2.5 for the M1903, 03A3, K4 for the Mauser variants.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Thanks Jason.

This is my go-to man on my classic rifles....

http://www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk/

He looks after both my Enfields and my 98k. He's currently building me an M1903A1 (see separate thread posted here). Ex-UK Forces armourer witha shared passion in vintage sniper rifles. Great bloke!

Appreciate the offer on the trade...but this one's a keeper!

The Transit Chest was built for me by a guy up in Canada...he does great work too.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

If I do my part, shooting from the bench with irons, and using 174 grain FMJ, I can shoot a 2.5" group at 100 yards with my 1943 model 91/30. When I first got the rifle I had to drift the front sight over to the right about 1/8" or so. I did not shoot the rifle with the bayonet on it, and maybe that is why.

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Thanks for the reply! Being here in the States, even being an FFL, I cannot import a gun from the UK. Great link; he seems to do some amazing work and from the looks of your gun, he is pretty passionate about vintage sniper rifles. Have a great one!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Jason.

This is my go-to man on my classic rifles....

http://www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk/

He looks after both my Enfields and my 98k. He's currently building me an M1903A1 (see separate thread posted here). Ex-UK Forces armourer witha shared passion in vintage sniper rifles. Great bloke!

Appreciate the offer on the trade...but this one's a keeper!

The Transit Chest was built for me by a guy up in Canada...he does great work too. </div></div>

 

[Joop]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I've never got the chance to fire WW2 dated ammo through any of my Mosin snipers. However, I've shot a lot of surplus through them, ranging from 1950s Bulgarian to 1990s dated Yugoslavian. There was a magazine article that was quite the buzz, several months ago, where they had a vintage sniper "shootout", using vintage guns and ammo. The 91/30 seemed to rank the best. However, to be fair, they had issues with the ammo for the 03-A4 and Enfield No.4(T).

Using surplus ammo of varying dates/origins (each of my rifles seems to prefer something different), I would say that my 91/30s average about 1.5". On a good day it hovers around an inch and, on a bad day, 2 inches, all at 100 yards off a bench/bags. Handloads and the proper tweaking of the rifles are a must, in order to get the absolute best out of them.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of groups can guns like the Enfield No 4 Mark 1T or the Mosin Nagant 1891/30 with the WWII period scope achieve at 100 yards? Assuming good ammo, and the shooter does his part.
</div></div>

The No4(T) had to shoot 3 moa to pass Holland&Holland tests after conversion. Many shot well under this requirement.

My (T) well shoot 1.5 moa and I have several MkII's with new barrels that shoot 1 moa with the right ammo.

Hand loading and matching bullet diameter to bore diameter can give you great groups.

 

[Joop]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madcratebuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of groups can guns like the Enfield No 4 Mark 1T or the Mosin Nagant 1891/30 with the WWII period scope achieve at 100 yards? Assuming good ammo, and the shooter does his part.
</div></div>

The No4(T) had to shoot 3 moa to pass Holland&Holland tests after conversion. Many shot well under this requirement.

My (T) well shoot 1.5 moa and I have several MkII's with new barrels that shoot 1 moa with the right ammo.

Hand loading and matching bullet diameter to bore diameter can give you great groups. </div></div>
I would agree. I know the purpose of this thread was to focus on "as issued" ammo and I would love to be able to obtain some. However, and especially with the Enfields, obtaining surplus ammo that's in good condition is very difficult to do.

Here's one of the first groups I shot with my Savage built No.4 Mk.I(T), while getting it sighted in and trying some preliminary handloads. This is a 100 yard target with iron sights, mind you. I don't have a scope for it, yet (some idiot had sporterized it and I'm in the process of restoring it). I'm a huge fan of the M91/30 sniper and they can be made to shoot just as well, but results like this, right out of the gate, are hard to ignore:

John

 

[1kHIT]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Nice pics, and thanks for sharing. It would almost seem that if you are just looking to shoot body / steel targets out to 600 yards or so, some of these older military / vintage sniper rifles will work just fine. Interesting....

 

[attila006steinhab]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I am curious, how did older match ammo perform compared to the modern stuff? I ask because some of these accuracy tests are frankly outstanding.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I get around 2.5 inch groups with my Model 91/30 Mosin Nagant, off the bench with irons. Those are five shot groups by the way. The ammo was 174 grain Brown Bear FMJ.

 

[Big Cal]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was shot with my '44 No4T/No 32 scope at 100m using HPS "house issue" 174gr .303 ammo (their standard MKVII load):

Clicks on the scope are 1MOA....the two shots away from the main body of the group were one click adjustments.

Sorry it's not a ten shot....maybe I cna get round to this one day!

It's groups like that that make me love the smle's even more the only seal problem with them is headspace and once you fix that it's rare to find 1 that won't shoot and your example is beautiful. I restored a no4 mk1* .308 conversion that was sporterised and set up for full bore with a central rear sight it's a tack driver but not original if you want to import a smle into the states try Canada as the Long Branch smle's were built there and should be a fair few around and not as hard to import I would think just check your headspace especially if you intend to reload


</div></div>

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

Big Cal - I've always avoided reloading, simply because I don't have the time to get into it properly.

So I use HPS in the UK as a kind of halfway house. They are just a few miles west of me.

John is great as I can give him the specs of old ammunition (bullet weight, barrel length and MV) and he will work up a load that matches those specs.

He's done a great job on my Mauser and I have just got a batch of 30-06 run up for my Springfield project.

Having said that, whils most of his ammo runs through the No4 just fine, I have had an issue with a very small percentage of the rounds I got from him on OAL.

The rounds were just a fraction too long and wouldn't chamber in either my MkIII or the No4. My smith checked the headspace on both rifles nad they are both weithin spec.

I've also started using their 175SMK and 168SMK through my AW and GAP instead of the FGMM - and the results are just as consistent and accurate.

Check out their website: http://www.hps-tr.com/index.asp

They show distributors in Aus and also in Canada.....they're actively looking for someone in the US too.

On the Enfields....as with any old/used rifle....you need to take your time and get them checked out thoroughly. In the UK there are a LOT of rifles in very poor condition that just do the rounds of the dealers until such time as someone is foolhardy enough to buy them.

But, as many of the posts in this thread show, if you take your time and get a good one, then these old girls are still more than capable of doing the business!

 

[Big Cal]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

BasraBoy, I'm lucky enough over here that a family friend is a dealer and specializes in older firearms circa ww2 so it's lucky for me because when I'm chasing somthing from that era he'll look after me he got my dad an ishapore a few years back and it's a really good rifle pings a 100mm gong at 100m easily with the iron sights generally groups within 50mm. The only reason I mentioned the headspace is because a mate who collects smle's was having a real problem with case separation on reloads and after going over the rifles going the headspace was out causing excessive case stretch fixed headspace fixed problem. Did a bit of research into it and found it's a common issue with milsurp smle's in aus because there was a stage before these things were collectables and some dealers just bolted together anything and sold it without checking even the headspace and that made alot shoot poorly but once fixed they were good to go. I enjoy looking at smle's and playing with them when I get a chance and am prob going to get 1 as a collectors piece just a matter of putting the feelers out and seeing what comes back. Again beautiful rifle mate and as for hps I load my own and I think half the fun is working up my own loads and it gives me some good de-stress time

 

[cyborsniper]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

I'm new to this forum and am not sure where to post my question.

I am looking for the ballistics for a 300 win mag using 180 grain rounds at ranges from 300 to 1500 yards.

Can you help out with this or send me to the right place?

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: I would be Very Interested in the 100 yd group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cyborsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm new to this forum and am not sure where to post my question.

I am looking for the ballistics for a 300 win mag using 180 grain rounds at ranges from 300 to 1500 yards.

Can you help out with this or send me to the right place? </div></div>

cyborsniper....I'm confused as to why you would post this in the Vintage Rifle forum.

I guess you missed both the Reloading and Beyond 1000 Yards forums?

Both are a better bet than this forum/thread for the info you're looking for.

Scroll down the front page just a little further.....you'll find them.