If Midway twisted Bell and Carlsons arm...

C

Capt Beach

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 1, 2011
355
13
66
Virginia Beach Va
#1
If Midway twisted Bell and Carlsons arm to actually support the Savage LA with the Tactical Medalist, the A2-A5 styles and other higher end stocks, AND supported the Savage SA better with a M40 style stock and the other offerings currently only available to the M700...would you buy them?

Please respond...Midway is watching this thread...
 
#4
If Midway twisted Bell and Carlsons arm...

Yes.

At least an A2 Medalist for the 110, since they discontinued the Duramaxx...but I'd love a SA factory DBM M40 Medalist for current production rifles.

Potterfield probably can't make it happen though, as folks have been pestering B&C directly for a few years now and they seemingly aren't interested in new Savage stocks.
 
#15
Many of you fellows may not be aware of the cost of tooling and molds for making fiberglass stocks. There are actually at least 7 difference variations of the Savage long action. There is the older long action"E" models that used a long action box for long calibers and a short mag box for the .308 length versions. Then there are the older "staggered food" standard long action in both a blind magazine version and a DBM version with the mag release button on the right side of the stock about in the middle of the right side mag box area. Then there are the newer long action "center feed" models which come in both a blind magazine version and a DBM version with the mag release button right in front of the mag box on the bottom, and also a floorplate version that should fit the same inlet.
Now if you mold the inletting into the stock you must make at lease 6 different sets of molds for these different variations if you want to keep everybody happy. I don't know what molds cost B&C but it is in the thousands of dollars apiece. You have to sell a lot of stocks, perhaps 100's of each, just to break even on the tooling costs for all these molds. Some things just are not economically feasible for the size of the market place and there are other places to invest your capital money that would be much better investments. Business is business.
 
#16
Oops, make that 9 variations of the Savage long actions. I forgot that the newest center feed models can now also come in either a standard side bolt stop variation or a newer bottom bolt release button.
I can tell you that keeping up with all of Savage's constant changes and model variations is more trouble that all the other rifle makers put together. I really don't blame any stock maker from staying out of that market.
 
#17
I'd be happy with an A2 version for tikka t3. The only b&c i have is an older4.25" a2. I spent a couple hours with some fiberglass mat and resin, grinding and sandind. My results were a stock that has a mcm a3 type forend instead of the 4x4 factory forend.
 
#18
I took a b&c for a short action and filled in the front hole drilled a new hole and milled in a new recoil pocket. Later i got sick of the huge fore end and cut that down to size. None of the work was difficult, just time consuming for any of you that feel the need to give it a try. I did it in a mill but if you take your time it could be done with a dremmel and die grinder. Any imperfections get filled with epoxy anyway.
Here is what i ended up with.
 

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#19
Dick D said:
Many of you fellows may not be aware of the cost of tooling and molds for making fiberglass stocks. There are actually at least 7 difference variations of the Savage long action. There is the older long action"E" models that used a long action box for long calibers and a short mag box for the .308 length versions. Then there are the older "staggered food" standard long action in both a blind magazine version and a DBM version with the mag release button on the right side of the stock about in the middle of the right side mag box area. Then there are the newer long action "center feed" models which come in both a blind magazine version and a DBM version with the mag release button right in front of the mag box on the bottom, and also a floorplate version that should fit the same inlet.
Now if you mold the inletting into the stock you must make at lease 6 different sets of molds for these different variations if you want to keep everybody happy. I don't know what molds cost B&C but it is in the thousands of dollars apiece. You have to sell a lot of stocks, perhaps 100's of each, just to break even on the tooling costs for all these molds. Some things just are not economically feasible for the size of the market place and there are other places to invest your capital money that would be much better investments. Business is business.
Click to expand...

That is NOT how composite stock blanks are made, injection molded yes...NOT Composite Custom/Semi Custom Composites...composite stock blanks are made from one mold...ok...say your making the A2 Stock...all A2 stocks come form the same mold...they come out UN INLETTED...flat tops...blanks...they are then chucked into a jig to be CNC milled to the correct inletting for that action...the same A2 style stock can be inletted for any number of actions...
 
#25
Stocks that fit the new bottom bolt release factory DBM will also work just fine for top bolt release factory DBMs.

So B&C:

Make the M40 for Savage long/short actions in the current centerfeed/factory DBM configuration.

Also make the A2 Medalist for Savage 110 long action STAGGERFEED, as you totally abandoned these rifles when the Duramaxx was discontinued. Fun fact, with a little shimming you could run a blind centerfeed mag in the long action staggerfeed inlet.

There will be much rejoicing in the world of the barrel nut, and you won't be able to take my money fast enough.
 
#26
Capt Beach said:
That is NOT how composite stock blanks are made, injection molded yes...NOT Composite Custom/Semi Custom Composites...composite stock blanks are made from one mold...ok...say your making the A2 Stock...all A2 stocks come form the same mold...they come out UN INLETTED...flat tops...blanks...they are then chucked into a jig to be CNC milled to the correct inletting for that action...the same A2 style stock can be inletted for any number of actions...
Click to expand...

you just basically refuted how McMillan makes their own stocks. Dick Davis is a part of McM lol
 
#27
While I don't disagree with the Capt, it is humorous to see someone explaining how a stock is made to a guy that works at McMillan.

^^^^^Damn you Lamz I was too busy laughing to get my post done before yours^^^^^
 
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#28
dang472 said:
While I don't disagree with the Capt, it is humorous to see someone explaining how a stock is made to a guy that works at McMillan.

^^^^^Damn you Lamz I was too busy laughing to get my post done before yours^^^^^
Click to expand...

Sorry I missed that...sounds like DD does work at McMillan...I am not trying to belittle or over simplify the process...their stocks are made by highly skilled craftsman but its NOT ROCKET SCIENCE...also not arguing that Savage has not changed things up a bit...however on the SA its 4.4" screw spacing or 4.27" for modern SA Savages...with the modern LA Savages since about 1980 or so its 5.062" if I remember correctly...all are Stagger feed also if I am not correct...simply make inlet for LA and SA based on those figures...they seem to be able to make all the SA they want to...I used the McMillan videos to help simplify the concept and to show its not injection molding...not to use McMillan as the end all...

That still does not erase the fact that a blank can be inletted for a Savage SA just as easily as a Remington SA, simply select the program to inlet...or the fact that B&C could make A2-A5 for the Savage LA if they chose to...at worst they could do the inleting for the action and leave magazine inletting for the end user to have inlet'd per his specs. I couldn't even get Bell and Carlson to sell me an blank for me to inlet for myself...Dont get me wrong I love McMillans...always have but realistically its been a waiting game 4-8 months since the late 1970's, early 1980's...probably always will be...

While I am not a stock maker I am a former USMC Armorer/Rifle Team Equipment Armorer and have worked with rifles, McMillan stocks and within this field all my adult life. I also work in the marine industry on boats. I make composite parts and molds for both the Marine Industry and for High Performance Composite Aircraft...I buy fiberglass by the roll and epoxy resins by the drum. I know a little bit about what I'm talking about...
 
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#29
Capt Beach said:
with the modern LA Savages since about 1980 or so its 5.062" if I remember correctly...all are Stagger feed also if I am not correct.
Click to expand...

Nope, there are centerfeed and staggerfeed long actions, changed the same time short actions switched over, even with the same bolt spacing. Evidently the mag cutout in the bottom of the action is different between a CF and SF long action, but I haven't personally verified it.
 
#30
I would love nothing more than for more vendors to provide savage long action support. I'd snatch up a B&C (even from Midway) if they came out with one. With the quickness at that.
 
#31
strike33 said:
Everyone blasts Midway for shipping prices and rightfully so. But I just paid $47 in shipping for a set of AICS skins from Mile High, that's close to 50%
Click to expand...

Ouch. I though the $28 I just paid to MH for fed ex ground delivery from CO to CA was bad. Specially when last week I paid $15 for the same delivery from PA to CA.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
 
#33
The question to ask is why Savage or it's new owners, keep making all of these changes to the layout of there actions, could it be that they don't like the after market selling parts for there guns.
 
#34
I think Savage has tried to improve their rifles.

The change from stagger to centerfeed provided a big improvement in feed reliability, as many people had issues with staggerfeeds. DBM was what the market clamored for.

I do think the bottom bolt release and smooth barrel nut were an attempt to"de-uglify" the rifles, addressing aesthetic concerns of non-Savage owners in an attempt to get their business. Which did nothing for function and pissed off existing Savage owners.
 
#36
MJY65 said:
It doesn't seem like B&C is too interested in new ideas. They're still running their 1992 style website.
Click to expand...

You notives that too...

AS far as Savage making so many changes...Last time I checked that was called innovation...its easy to make lots of stocks for a M700 action that has not basically changed in 40+ years...quite another to stay ahead with a company thats striving to change things for the better...the only change I can think of that stumped me was the bottom bolt release change of late...it truly has pissed off a lot of tried and true Savage owners...
 
#37
Savage was going in the right direction with the center feed, though I had no problem with the late stagger feed in the Dura-Max stocks w/DBM. Their Rifle team showed the non-believers about out of the box use.
 
#38
I would love a M40 or A5 style stock for my Savage 12SA 4.40 centerfeed. If it came in GAP camo and a DBM I would order one tomorrow. I have the Tactical Medalist on it now and it's decent for around $200.
 
#40
Bit of dis-information has been posted on this thread. All the stocks of a model do not come out of the same mold. We have multiple molds for most of our tactical stock designs. Different types of actions have different requirements in stocks for them. Tang shape and height, depth of action area at rear guard screw location, depth of action area at front guard screw location, slant on the bottom of the stock for the factory floorplate and magazine, etc. You can't just take a general one-stock-for-all-actions and inlet it to fit them all properly. A stock has to be designed and configured to fit a specific type of action properly.
For example, when we brought out the A-5 stock we wanted to cover the full range of most of the rifles our customers ask for. We had to make 7 different model variations to cover the range of rifles that we would probably get requests for. One variation for Remington ( and clones) and Savage type actions since these have about the same dimensions, one variation for the Winchester/Montana/Dakota type actions, one variation for the older Sakos, Tikka and Howa actions ( all have similar dimensions), one variation for the big Weatherby Mk V actions, one variation for the Sako 75 actions, one for the Kimber 8400 actions, and finally one for the custom thick rear tang benchrest type actions ( BAT's, Stolles, Kelblys, Bordens, Stillers, etc). For many of these we have multiple molds for each variation such as one for a solid fixed comb and one for an intergral adjustable comb. In all we have about 24 different molds just for the A-5 series of stocks, all at about $3500 apiece. That's about $84,000 invested just in molds for the A-5's.
All told we have over 200 different molds in the plant for all the stocks we make.
Just as an aside, the names of our "A" series tactical stocks such as the "A-2", "A-3" "A3-5", "A-4" and "A-5" are all registered trade-marks for McMillan Fiberglass Stocks and we do defend them. Any other manufacturer or seller who uses these names for models of other make stocks will get a friendly little letter from our legal firm.
Best regards and good night, Dick Davis
General Manager and R&D guy
McMillan Fiberglass Stocks
 
#41
tipper said:
would you really spend $700.00 + for a stock
Click to expand...

Actually I would be happy if it was around the $500 mark. The $800 price on the McMillan is the only reason I haven't just ordered what I want from them. I routinely spend $900-$1400 on REM chassis so I'm not scared of paying for a nice stock. My Savage is more of a budget truck gun and I try to keep the upgrades reasonable. The $200 B&C on it now is way better than the factory tupperware, I would just like an adjustable cheekpiece, different forend, and DBM. If B&C can do that for $450-500, I'm sure they'll sell a lot of them.
 
#42
B&C already make the A5 Medalist for Savage 4.4 SA ($469 from Red Hawk Rifles) though you'd have to send it off to be inletted for DBM.

You can always send your A2 Medalist to Stockdoc for an adjustable cheekpiece for $200, and recontour the forearm yourself.
 
#43
Bell and Carlson pays a great deal of att'n to what customers are saying. We are more than overwhelmed with business right now and have been for some time, we serve the OEM manufactures more than ever as well as the aftermarket world. Our #1 priority is delivering product. The website is simply on the back burner.

The new tooling list is extensive, but with workload what it is, new tools are slow to come about. Many of which are mentioned above.

Bell and Carlson does not produce "A" series stocks, that is a McMillan designation for their models. We have never advertised and or sold product under this designation. Our customers often refer to our product as similar and they are given a part number designation for out models that have similar features such as "adjustable cheek piece", "adjustable buttplate", Etc, etc.

Our tooling is mold specific to each and every model. Some models we have many tools, some models we have many tools of the same exact configuration.

There are many fine gunstocks being produced today. If we don't build it I am certain someone does. My best advise is to get off the computer, go work a bit more, and money up it is more expensive. If not, hang tight, and we will see what we can do for you. I personally am as anxious as you.


I think you all know who Mr. Dick Davis is now so I will leave that one alone. Not all stocks are built in the same fashion as a heads up.
 
#44
Many of us Tikka owners would really like a Medalist Tactical for our T3. The chassis systems are nice even though they are expensive. They are however, heavy to carry around all day while hunting. Your competitor who makes the "A" series stocks while making a nice stock, charges a very nice price as well. If the bottom metal was included in that price it wouldn't be so bad. Please make the Medalist Tactical model for us Tikka dudes:)

Would it be possible to get one for a LA remington and inlet it for a Tikka action?
 
#45
Dick D said:
Bit of dis-information has been posted on this thread. All the stocks of a model do not come out of the same mold. We have multiple molds for most of our tactical stock designs. Different types of actions have different requirements in stocks for them. Tang shape and height, depth of action area at rear guard screw location, depth of action area at front guard screw location, slant on the bottom of the stock for the factory floorplate and magazine, etc. You can't just take a general one-stock-for-all-actions and inlet it to fit them all properly. A stock has to be designed and configured to fit a specific type of action properly.
For example, when we brought out the A-5 stock we wanted to cover the full range of most of the rifles our customers ask for. We had to make 7 different model variations to cover the range of rifles that we would probably get requests for. One variation for Remington ( and clones) and Savage type actions since these have about the same dimensions, one variation for the Winchester/Montana/Dakota type actions, one variation for the older Sakos, Tikka and Howa actions ( all have similar dimensions), one variation for the big Weatherby Mk V actions, one variation for the Sako 75 actions, one for the Kimber 8400 actions, and finally one for the custom thick rear tang benchrest type actions ( BAT's, Stolles, Kelblys, Bordens, Stillers, etc). For many of these we have multiple molds for each variation such as one for a solid fixed comb and one for an intergral adjustable comb. In all we have about 24 different molds just for the A-5 series of stocks, all at about $3500 apiece. That's about $84,000 invested just in molds for the A-5's.
All told we have over 200 different molds in the plant for all the stocks we make.
Just as an aside, the names of our "A" series tactical stocks such as the "A-2", "A-3" "A3-5", "A-4" and "A-5" are all registered trade-marks for McMillan Fiberglass Stocks and we do defend them. Any other manufacturer or seller who uses these names for models of other make stocks will get a friendly little letter from our legal firm.
Best regards and good night, Dick Davis
General Manager and R&D guy
McMillan Fiberglass Stocks
Click to expand...

Your products are nice. If your stock sells for close to 1,000 dollars and the mold only cost 3,500 dollars I would say that is a pretty profitable business model! In all sincerity, I would buy one of your stocks, but I can buy a really nice chassis system with viper skins, etc for less or equal money. I just don't see the value in your product currently. I might in the future. Again, no disrespect, your stocks are very, very nice.
 
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