Suppressors If you were a betting man... (Sierra 5 content)

[Ape_Factory]

The big brown truck delivered my Dead Air Sierra 5 tonight and having never been shot through, I thought it'd be worthwhile to take a good, hard look at the rear baffle and weld. Now I've read you cannot tell anything by looking at the weld on the last baffle but after taking a hard look at mine, I don't think that's the case. Pretty sure mine has a large crack that's almost half the circumference of the can. And you can see there's something there with the naked eye. Additionally, it's not "even" all the way around and there are differences in various sections of the weld that again, can be seen with the naked eye.

We'll start out with the good portion. You can see the "gold" bead which goes around the circumference of the tube/baffle. You can see, on the right side, it starts to turn blue.


Now the bad. Rotating the suppressor, you can clearly see a dark line which is a crack. Don't worry I zoom in later. This can be seen with the naked eye. You're also able to see a section where the weld bead has a texture.



Here, the crack stops at about the 2pm position.


Let's zoom in! I'll sort of work my way around the rim.











Now here's the thing...if this is indeed a failure point and it's visible to the naked eye, one could imply a number of things that potentially happened to let this suppressor, and others like it, out the door. None of them make the manufacturer or Dead Air look good.

I could be wrong. Maybe this is "normal" but I don't think so. I'm going to reach out to Dead Air and send them the photos. I'm also going to reach out to my suppressor vendor, who had this can for 250+ days, knowing the issues the can was having, and didn't at least take a look and contact Dead Air about their stock on hand. All of them should have been sent back for inspection and the vendors that carry them, should have insisted on such.

I really should have insisted as well but believed there was no way to tell if it'd fail just by looking at it. This leads me to believe differently.

I do have a video bore scope with a flexible arm and I may try to use it and see the underside of the baffle. Will report back if that works. I'll also try my standard bore scope and obtain a few images that are even more close up with a higher resolution than my digitally zoomed in iPhone pics.

Next step, I install the mounts on both rifles this'll be used on and check to make sure everything is aligned correctly.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Dead air will inspect it whether you choose to shoot it first or send it in. I'd probably throw a few rounds through it since the turn around time is pretty long. At the end of the day both options have have the same resolution. Ymmv

 

[Ape_Factory]

I'm not sure it's safe to shoot at all with that crack. I've sent them an email and will be filling out the warranty return paperwork this morning. I don't want to waste any time as I'm worried the company may not be around long enough to repair all of them.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

I wouldnt worry about that. I forget where I read it but somebody posted the specs on volume of cans sold and dead air is still like 40% of all cans combined.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Maybe. Or maybe that's old data and things are drying up quickly for them. I get that things happen in the manufacturing world but not on this level. And the fact that it's clearly visible means they either saw it and sent it out anyway or they don't inspect every can which, given what it does, is really, really stupid. On an epic level. A catastrophic failure could injure either myself or someone else so it's a huge liability on their end that they have not addressed in a proactive manner. Someone gets hurt using one of their cans and gets a decent lawyer, it won't be pretty for Dead Air. It'd be like Takata waiting to see if your air bag blew up, sending shrapnel into your face, before offering to fix your air bag. They know there's a problem but instead of being proactive, they're rolling the dice.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

It's not old data.

If you feel that unsafe, why even start a thread? Send it back

 

[SporterII]

Glad you saw this and posted it. Nothing like asking for trouble. Dont shoot it.

 

[Ape_Factory]

It's not old data.

If you feel that unsafe, why even start a thread? Send it back

Two reasons. First. Because we all need to be educated consumers and people need to be aware the Sierra 5 could have a catastrophic manufacturing flaw and apparently no QC from either at the original manufacturing firm or at Dead Air. Dead Air isn't going to tell you that but the end consumer is. That's why. Same reason people post all sorts of reviews. We're a community sharing information. Eyes wide open.

Second. The general consensus was flaws couldn't be determined by visual inspection. My example throws a wrench into that theory.

Once the info is out and wide-spread, one can make their own decision on whether or not to purchase a Sierra 5 or any Dead Air product. Had I known, I never would have purchased the Sierra 5 in the first place. I apparently didn't do enough searching as the failures were few and far between back then and the information wasn't wide spread. I didn't even know Dead Air wasn't the manufacturer until reading it on this very forum.

 

[HPIguy]

Yep, the Sierra line has been a dumpster fire for them, and they've went quiet on it, big time. Good luck getting it sorted OP.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Nothing about your OP suggests this. You asked what we would do. If you feel unsafe send it in.

You didn't throw a wrench in anything. You didn't shoot it so you have NO idea if that would cause a failure. While possibly informative the only factual information is that you appear to have a Crack in your baffle.

No round count
No failures

I'm not knocking you for being proactive and cautious. Either shoot it or don't. The end result is the same

Was your kgm or smt made?

And how did you NOT know dead air contracted out to other OEM's? It literally says KGM or SMT on your form 4

 

[Ape_Factory]

SMT. I didn't notice that on the Form 4 and wasn't aware prior to hitting the "buy it" button. I don't think Dead Air publicly lists this on their own website or in their marketing.

If you think a crack in the rear baffle makes for a safe to shoot suppressor, I can't help you with that. The rest is clearly your opinion and your opinion only.

I never asked what "we" would do. I slept on it and decided to just send it back as it's a risk. I am going to mount and check for alignment as I can't count on Dead Air having done that. Imagine the outrage if I sent this in, waited months for a fix, got it back and it was out of alignment!

 

[Hoody2shoes]

SMT. I didn't notice that on the Form 4 and wasn't aware prior to hitting the "buy it" button. I don't think Dead Air publicly lists this on their own website or in their marketing.

If you think a crack in the rear baffle makes for a safe to shoot suppressor, I can't help you with that. The rest is clearly your opinion and your opinion only.

I never asked what "we" would do. I slept on it and decided to just send it back as it's a risk. I am going to mount and check for alignment as I can't count on Dead Air having done that. Imagine the outrage if I sent this in, waited months for a fix, got it back and it was out of alignment!

Smart move on the alignment.

Never said it was smart, I said the end result is the same, being it gets fixed.

For future reference, it's listed under the manufacturer. My griffin can has griffin my Dead Air has kgm

I do think that suppressor companies should be more forthcoming with disclosing who makes what for them but that's another story

 

[joe777]

Looks like some kind of thermal issue where one side got too hot and caused expansion or contraction. Thanks for the info OP.

 

[kthomas]

Some solid quality right there.

I'm sure DA will take care of you. But this doesn't inspire confidence in their product.

 

[Kadams1563]

I’d shoot the piss out it and when it flys down range or the baffle splits in the back worry about it then lol.

Either way your not gonna have your can for another year probably.

 

[Ape_Factory]

^^^Living up to your motto I see!

Small update. I reached out to Dead Air. Got a response quite quickly and they requested photos which I promptly sent in. They said it needs to be sent back and not to shoot through it. Got another response from another representative higher up about some of my other concerns. I did appreciate the quick response. I did not get a time estimate and I did ask. If it's going to be a year, I might as well buy another can although the new Huxwrx Flow 762 did really well on a 5.56 SBR and I have one of those in jail currently. I'd rather not buy another can at this point TBH.

I also reached out to the shop I purchased the suppressor to let them know along with a suggestion to inspect suppressors visually right after purchase along with available stock on hand. We'll see if they respond.

I also checked for alignment and it appears it's off by a hair to one side. The HUB mount also sticks a bit after 1/3 of travel. I think it's the HUB adapter and not the suppressor as the suppressor threads look very clean. It'll thread in but you continuously encounter resistance every 1/3 turn until it's tight. Maybe the HUB adapter itself is ever so slightly off.

I've used a 7.62 suppressor on my SBR and it's definitely centered. So I know it's something to do with the DA can, HUB mount or muzzle device/mount (flash hider).

Bad side. It's visibly closer to one of the tongs. A bit hard to see as the rod is long and almost impossible to do a dead center shot so a bit of parallax error. But definitely there as when I rotate the rod, it stays the same.


Good side.

 

[FuhQ]

Looks like some kind of thermal issue where one side got too hot and caused expansion or contraction. Thanks for the info OP.

It's a bad batch of Stellite, and a shitty QC/QA and attitude towards Dead Air from KGM (their [now formerly] subcontracted manufacturer) because they got their contract pulled over shit like this. It's a known issue with the Sierra5 cans.

 

[FuhQ]

^^^Living up to your motto I see!

Small update. I reached out to Dead Air. Got a response quite quickly and they requested photos which I promptly sent in. They said it needs to be sent back and not to shoot through it. Got another response from another representative higher up about some of my other concerns. I did appreciate the quick response. I did not get a time estimate and I did ask. If it's going to be a year, I might as well buy another can although the new Huxwrx Flow 762 did really well on a 5.56 SBR and I have one of those in jail currently. I'd rather not buy another can at this point TBH.

I also reached out to the shop I purchased the suppressor to let them know along with a suggestion to inspect suppressors visually right after purchase along with available stock on hand. We'll see if they respond.

I also checked for alignment and it appears it's off by a hair to one side. The HUB mount also sticks a bit after 1/3 of travel. I think it's the HUB adapter and not the suppressor as the suppressor threads look very clean. It'll thread in but you continuously encounter resistance every 1/3 turn until it's tight. Maybe the HUB adapter itself is ever so slightly off.

I've used a 7.62 suppressor on my SBR and it's definitely centered. So I know it's something to do with the DA can, HUB mount or muzzle device/mount (flash hider).

Bad side. It's visibly closer to one of the tongs. A bit hard to see as the rod is long and almost impossible to do a dead center shot so a bit of parallax error. But definitely there as when I rotate the rod, it stays the same.

@HansohnBrothers

Otter Creek Polonium – Hansohn Brothers

hansohnbrothers.com

A few other places that have them...

Otter Creek Labs Polonium - Silencer Shop

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OCL - Polonium 5.56 Duty Suppressor - Black

The polonium is made to be a quiet, duty rated, hard use, 5.56 suppressor. Just as much at home on a mk18 getting hammered with heavy strings of fire as it is on a DMR/SPR set up where ultimate suppression is the goal.

www.bauer-precision.com

 

[Ape_Factory]

It's a bad batch of Stellite, and a shitty QC/QA and attitude towards Dead Air from KGM (their [now formerly] subcontracted manufacturer) because they got their contract pulled over shit like this. It's a known issue with the Sierra5 cans.

This one was made by Sound Moderation Technologies, LLC according to my form. I was actually surprised to see the baffles are cast and not milled forgings. I always thought it was the weld penetration that was the problem, not actual bad baffles that crack. Doesn't matter much at this point, it's going back. Had plans to hit the range this weekend too.

 

[Tritiumdials]

It's a bad batch of Stellite, and a shitty QC/QA and attitude towards Dead Air from KGM (their [now formerly] subcontracted manufacturer) because they got their contract pulled over shit like this. It's a known issue with the Sierra5 cans.

Says who?

 

[FuhQ]

Says who?

Extremely high up people I know.

 

[FuhQ]

This one was made by Sound Moderation Technologies, LLC according to my form. I was actually surprised to see the baffles are cast and not milled forgings. I always thought it was the weld penetration that was the problem, not actual bad baffles that crack. Doesn't matter much at this point, it's going back. Had plans to hit the range this weekend too.

That's not good... Maybe the company making the Stellite bar steel needs to be investigated then.

 

[Tritiumdials]

Extremely high up people I know.

That's not good... Maybe the company making the Stellite bar steel needs to be investigated then.

Did extremely high up people not inform you that Stellite is a cast material?

 

[E. Bryant]

That's not good... Maybe the company making the Stellite bar steel needs to be investigated then.

The baffles are almost certainly cast, not machined from bar stock. You don't just chuck up a bar of Stellite in a turning center and make chips.

Extremely high up people that I know have told me that welding stainless to Stellite is kinda tough. Whomever made the Sandman obviously figured it out since those cans generally have a decent reputation; why that knowledge didn't carry over to the Sierra 5 is a good problem for Dead Air to unravel - hopefully before their reputation does.

 

[FuhQ]

Did extremely high up people not inform you that Stellite is a cast material?

Well, most all bar stock is cast, as well, so… But I’m assuming you’re referring to each individual baffle being cast independently.

 

[E. Bryant]

Well, most all bar stock is cast, as well, so… But I’m assuming you’re referring to each individual baffle being cast independently.

Cast bar stock is not at all common. Almost everything you'll find on the shelf will have been worked in a number of different ways (rolled, forged, etc.) - even Stellite bar stock and sheet is commonly available in the wrought form.

 

[FuhQ]

Cast bar stock is not at all common. Almost everything you'll find on the shelf will have been worked in a number of different ways (rolled, forged, etc.) - even Stellite bar stock and sheet is commonly available in the wrought form.

Yes, smelted, casted into a long mold, and hot-rolled (or cold-rolled), flow-forged, etc... That’s what I’m talking about. I figured Stellite was done the same way, just never messed with any personally, so no idea it was that difficult to mill or lathe. But the brittle nature of it makes sense, like Scandium and Titanium.

 

[E. Bryant]

Yes, smelted, casted into a long mold, and hot-rolled (or cold-rolled), flow-forged, etc... That’s what I’m talking about. I figured Stellite was done the same way, just never messed with any personally, so no idea it was that difficult to mill or lathe. But the brittle nature of it makes sense, like Scandium and Titanium.

Once a piece of metal is worked, it's no longer considered "cast". If it was, we'd have a very difficult time describing various forms of stock material.

I really don't want to go down the material properties hole with you once again, but please don't refer to titanium as "brittle". It's pretty much opposite from that, at least until Q contaminates it during welding. Grab a piece of it and try to shape it sometime.

 

[kthomas]

Not a great look for DA when they are having issues with both companies that they outsource their manufacturing to.

DA really needs to figure their shit out.

 

[FuhQ]

Not a great look for DA when they are having issues with both companies that they outsource their manufacturing to.

DA really needs to figure their shit out.

Agreed. I hate that for them, as they were one of the biggest and most innovative companies that brought suppressors mainstream here in the U.S. but for right now, until they get things figured out, I'll stick with OCL and TBAC...

 

[E. Bryant]

What's even worse is that Dead Air's normally-solid customer service went to shit and various DA employees who did the Lord's work keeping people happy have either disappeared or gotten rather unpleasant (understandable considering the circumstances, but never a good look).

 

[kthomas]

What's even worse is that Dead Air's normally-solid customer service went to shit and various DA employees who did the Lord's work keeping people happy have either disappeared or gotten rather unpleasant (understandable considering the circumstances, but never a good look).

Definitely seems that DA is struggling across the board.

Hopefully they can right the ship before everyone (customers and employees) abandon ship.

 

[chevy_man]

It's a bad batch of Stellite, and a shitty QC/QA and attitude towards Dead Air from KGM (their [now formerly] subcontracted manufacturer) because they got their contract pulled over shit like this. It's a known issue with the Sierra5 cans.

I just bought a dead air that's made by kgm. I doubt they could get away from kgm as nobody else is as big or has as much capacity.

My kgm cans are perfect. I inspected them before I put them in jail.


There's a bunch of finger pointing, yet I don't see anyone else that has kgm OEM stuff having these issues....


It just makes it even better that this one wasn't a kgm can.

 

[Ape_Factory]

My kgm cans are perfect. I inspected them before I put them in jail.

I mean I didn't know what I know now but moving forward, I'll likely drive over to my suppressor shop which is a bit over an hour away (they're one of the big ones) or buy through my range so I can visually inspect and shoot it at the range while I wait for the form to clear. Live and learn!

 

[FuhQ]

I just bought a dead air that's made by kgm. I doubt they could get away from kgm as nobody else is as big or has as much capacity.

My kgm cans are perfect. I inspected them before I put them in jail.


There's a bunch of finger pointing, yet I don't see anyone else that has kgm OEM stuff having these issues....


It just makes it even better that this one wasn't a kgm can.

All 4 of my KGM made DA cans are perfect, but when I recently sent my Mask HD back for a respray and new end caps (the finish came off them in the ultrasonic, so DA warrantied the repair, which was nice of them), but what was supposed to be a 1-2 week turnaround (I'm just right across the state line from GA, over in Alabama so shipping was like 1.5 days each way), but KGM stopped communicating with DA as to where it was in the process, they kept it for like 6-8 weeks instead of 1-2, and when I got it back, the lazy fucks didn't even blast the old finish off the tube first, and just sprayed right over it, and it looks terrible on the words, logo, and S/N are hard to read. The finish was smooth, but it was a lazy repair. This was almost directly after DA had pulled their contract, so I have no doubt they were all pretty pissy towards DA and their customers, but they still should have repaired the can properly. It still works just fine, and looks great for a foot away, until you look at the logo or try to read the words or S/N, and I also asked them if they could blast the baffles for me, so they would look new again, and it would remove all stuck bits of lead and carbon... They didn't do shit. They put dirty baffles back in the can and slapped it together and sent it back to me.

 

[FuhQ]

I mean I didn't know what I know now but moving forward, I'll likely drive over to my suppressor shop which is a bit over an hour away (they're one of the big ones) or buy through my range so I can visually inspect and shoot it at the range while I wait for the form to clear. Live and learn!

After my first 3 were sent to a dealer with no range, I said no more. My local range became a "Powered By" Silver dealer for SS and ever since then, I've been sending all mine to them, that way I can at least use them while waiting.

 

[Charger442]

Shoot it. Turn that bitch into a maraca.

 

[Yondering]

Dead air will inspect it whether you choose to shoot it first or send it in. I'd probably throw a few rounds through it since the turn around time is pretty long. At the end of the day both options have have the same resolution. Ymmv

That's definitely a crack. I've inspected a lot of parts for cracks over the years and that's about as obvious as I've seen without being fully broken. OP, good on you for catching it, a lot of guys would never notice until they'd destroyed the can. I don't think you can blame the vendor though; it's pretty unlikely they inspected inside your can (did you when you filled out the paperwork?) and not really fair to expect guys working for min wage in a gun shop to act as QA inspectors on something that detailed. I do get being frustrated and pissed though, which I'm guessing is where you were coming from with that comment.

But definitely do not shoot it. Even if for no other reason than filling the crack with fouling will make it a lot harder for Dead Air to identify. Besides, what good will come from taking a big chance on making the problem worse? They might be able to do something with your serialized tube, but definitely not if you bust the blast baffle loose and drive the next bullet out the side of the tube.

 

[Ape_Factory]

That's definitely a crack. I've inspected a lot of parts for cracks over the years and that's about as obvious as I've seen without being fully broken. OP, good on you for catching it, a lot of guys would never notice until they'd destroyed the can. I don't think you can blame the vendor though; it's pretty unlikely they inspected inside your can (did you when you filled out the paperwork?) and not really fair to expect guys working for min wage in a gun shop to act as QA inspectors on something that detailed. I do get being frustrated and pissed though, which I'm guessing is where you were coming from with that comment.

But definitely do not shoot it. Even if for no other reason than filling the crack with fouling will make it a lot harder for Dead Air to identify. Besides, what good will come from taking a big chance on making the problem worse? They might be able to do something with your serialized tube, but definitely not if you bust the blast baffle loose and drive the next bullet out the side of the tube.

Fair enough. But here's where I'm coming from. And believe me, this is just a suggestion to the shops out there. Trying to be helpful. And no, it isn't fair that manufacturers have to put this on vendors or customers.

The entire industry now KNOWS of the Sierra 5 issues. I purchased, sight unseen, from one of the largest suppressor shops in the country as they're semi-local and I can have them shipped to my door. I wasn't able to inspect it prior to purchasing but that'll change in the future. Hard lesson learned there.

Since everyone knows about the problems with them, and has for some time, I am suggesting dealers, at the very least, take a look at the Sierra 5's they have in stock. Even if you have 30 in stock, that's going to take an hour tops. I'm not asking them to x-ray each one and inspect for cracks but they could have easily caught mine and not sold that serial number to me and returned it to Dead Air. Granted, there's no guarantee another would have been any better and could have failed after 100 rounds. Totally hypothetical. But the shop had to open the box to add the additional mounting device I purchased and then file that all away until my form came back.

It would be under customer service, above and beyond what most shops would do. It would just be nice to look out for your end customer given the situation. Big gun shops have scratch and dent sales all the time and catch guns that arrive in something other than as new condition. Why not inspect the cans as well?

Visual inspection of products is done throughout the retail industry by shops large and small selling everything from clothing to auto parts. If Joe Bob's alternator shop starts getting a bunch of people coming back with newly purchased alternators that have cracks in their housings, Joe Bob is going to start inspecting that particular alternator upon arrival from the manufacturer. No one wants the headache of unhappy customers.

Just a "hey, wouldn't it be nice if" suggestion.

I have two more cans in jail with this company and I may just drive up there and inspect them. Granted neither has had any issues that I've seen but better safe than sorry.

 

[Ape_Factory]

But definitely do not shoot it. Even if for no other reason than filling the crack with fouling will make it a lot harder for Dead Air to identify. Besides, what good will come from taking a big chance on making the problem worse? They might be able to do something with your serialized tube, but definitely not if you bust the blast baffle loose and drive the next bullet out the side of the tube.

And yes, I'm 100% with you on this one. I've already sent the photos in but that was actually my initial thought. Catastrophic failure, destroying the serial number, not to mention possibly injuring myself or someone standing nearby.