Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Kentucky Jelly

Sergeant
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Minuteman
Jan 8, 2011
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N.KY
I am having some inconsistent results resizing .308 brass. So much so that it is causing hang ups in a .308 AR. I am using Hornady dies, and it is adjusted all the way down. Most of the brass is LC. Some of the resized shoulders are measuring longer than that of once fired from my gun. These are the cases that are getting jammed in the chamber. I made some dummy rounds and after chambering, getting stuck, and then removed they are actually getting the shoulders bumped back to acceptable dimensions..

I tried running some of the brass in question back through the resizing die, but get the same head space measurement. I have a lot of about 1,500 pieces of this brass that is fully prepped. I do not have a Wilson gauge so I would have to mic every piece with the Hornady headspace bushings to cull out the no go brass. Once I get it seperated how can i get the shoulders bumped back?
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Are you properly lubricating the brass before you run it through the sizing die? Sometimes with no or too little librication you can actually pull the shoulder back forward with the sizing button. Try a little lube on the inside of the necks when you resize them and see if that works. If that does not work, perhaps your dies are a little long and you could take a few thousands off the bottom of the die and try it again.

Is this a new barrel or new rifle? Perhaps you have a headspace issue.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

With a case rammed fully into your sizing die, is there a visable gap between die and shellholder?
If there is then you might have to screw your die in farther.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a case rammed fully into your sizing die, is there a visable gap between die and shellholder?
If there is then you might have to screw your die in farther. </div></div>

No the shell holder makes contact with the die before the press cams over a the bottom of the stroke.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbeckwith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you properly lubricating the brass before you run it through the sizing die? Sometimes with no or too little librication you can actually pull the shoulder back forward with the sizing button. Try a little lube on the inside of the necks when you resize them and see if that works. If that does not work, perhaps your dies are a little long and you could take a few thousands off the bottom of the die and try it again.

Is this a new barrel or new rifle? Perhaps you have a headspace issue. </div></div>

It is a new rifle in that I have less than 1,000 rounds through it. A case of fgmm 7.62x51 ran through it fine, and hundreds of reloads using win, and Hornady match.

I am going to remove the de-capping pin, button and re-size again to see if that helps.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbeckwith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you properly lubricating the brass before you run it through the sizing die? </div></div>

What lube are you using? I had a real hard time getting consistent sizing results when using Hornady One-Shot spray on stuff. Tried some imperial sizing wax and the problem miraculously went away.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Kentucky ......

There are 2 main reasons why your rounds don't chamber.

1.) No clearance <span style="text-decoration: underline">at the shoulder</span>

2.) Excessive case width <span style="text-decoration: underline">above the web</span>
<<< This can be measured with calipers >>>

These two items are often confused - especially in custom chambers.

The <span style="font-weight: bold">Digital Headspace Gauge </span>measures the clearance <span style="text-decoration: underline">at the shoulder</span> that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber.

It is normal to have shoulder length vary by .0005"
If you use a non-carbide or a non-lubed expander ball, your case variance (at the shoulder) can be up to .002"

The <span style="font-weight: bold">Digital Headspace Gauge </span>shows you the actual shoulder clearance.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

You are using a Hornady Full Length sizing die? Try cleaning it again by patching it with Hoppes #9 or equivalent.
When you say the die is adjusted all the way down, do you mean to the shellholder or until you have run out of threads?
To adjust the full-length size die, follow these steps:
1. Raise the press ram to highest position without camming over.
2. Thread the full-length die into the press until the base touches the
shell holder head.
3. Tighten the lock ring against the press and tighten the set screw
with the allen wrench.
4. Adjust the expander/decap assembly.
Are you running s progressive press? My Dillon produces less consistent headspace then my Redding big boss single stage.
You are comparing once fired and resized brass with the same headstamp? What are you using to measure headspace? I suggest the RCBS Precision Mic.
The cases are getting stuck because you are forcing the bolt closed? (You should only have a slight resistance to close the bolt.)
You aren't using machine gun brass, are you? If they were shot out of a machine gun, I would throw them all away or trade them in for military brass shot out of a bolt gun.
Good luck!
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kentucky Jelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am going to remove the de-capping pin, button and re-size again to see if that helps. </div></div>
I suspect that you'll find that it will. The expander button is a big culprit, followed closely by inconsistent lubrication of cases.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Well I took the expander out, and the results are much better. Now all withing .001-.002. Before it was .01 difference. I am using Unique lube, but apparently not enough on the expander. I am going to clean the die up and see if that helps out some more.

This is on a Single stage Hornady classic press btw. I do not run any of my .308 on my progressive.

I am measuring the shoulder set back with Hornady headspace gauges.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kentucky Jelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a case rammed fully into your sizing die, is there a visable gap between die and shellholder?
If there is then you might have to screw your die in farther. </div></div>

No the shell holder makes contact with the die before the press cams over a the bottom of the stroke.

</div></div>


The press cams over for a reason, it is called leverage. Use it. You have your die screwed way too far down.
Back it out some and cam over.
Like I said earlier, check for the gap between die and shellholder.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

The expander ball can pull the shoulder forward as it comes back up through the neck. I have good luck with the carbide expander balls redding sells for their dies. Do not ever need to lube inside the necks with that. Imperial sizing wax is the way to go for the cases and they sell a dry neck lube for when you dont have a carbide ball.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

I should add that its important to brush out the case necks before sizing them, even with a carbide ball. All the crap in the neck will create a lot of friction.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kentucky Jelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a case rammed fully into your sizing die, is there a visable gap between die and shellholder?
If there is then you might have to screw your die in farther. </div></div>

No the shell holder makes contact with the die before the press cams over a the bottom of the stroke.

</div></div>


The press cams over for a reason, it is called leverage. Use it. You have your die screwed way too far down.
Back it out some and cam over.
Like I said earlier, check for the gap between die and shellholder. </div></div>

The die is set fine.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Jelly,

Couple things. First- I have experienced this. Second - I have fixed it too. Here's how:

1- On a belt sander or lathe, you're gonna need to remove some metal from the base of that die. Take off about 0.020", but NOT any more. Of course, you could also take that much off the shell plate and not touch the die. Make sure you get rid of the burrs and chamfer it just a touch too.

2- Your inconsistency is almost surely coming from EITHER inconsistent lubrication OR varying hardness of the brass at the shoulder. Check out both. Is your brass "squeaking" as you run it thru, or does it size like a hot knife thru butter? Squeaking is not good, and indicates that you need to anneal the necks/shoulder.

3- This is pretty cool- As you screw the die down to touch the shoulder and "bump" it, JUST BEFORE YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL IN BUMPING ABOUT 0.002", you'll find that the brass gets LONGER (shoulder to base). Remember, you're displacing metal. As you run it thru the die, the metal can't go outward. It will move inward a bit, but it will also have a tendency to lenghten JUST A LITTLE. So, as you state that occasionally the brass gets longer than the once-fired (measured with a Stoney Point gauge), then that tells us that you're ALMOST to the right die adjustment. You just need a schoche more, and it's probably less than 0.020". On a 14 TPI thread, that's probably a little less than 1/2 turn of the die. I don't have a calculator with me at the moment.

However, you state that your die is screwed all the way down. If so, then you need to remove some "interference metal", either via die or shell plate. Dealers choice.

Ain't got nothing to do with the expander ball unless your brass is harder than woodpecker lips AND you're not lubing the inside of the necks adequately.

Bet you a dollar.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

I had some LC 308 that would not re-size properly, It spring back to size no matter how many time I resized it. it would not chamber in my rifle. I passed it on to a freind who used a small base re-sizing die. He was able to use it.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Hmmm, possibly I have too many different brand shell holders sitting around here. I have some rcbs and redding ones, didnt ever check to see if they were built identical.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

I had the same problem a couple years ago with LC 308 brass, it is very thick and no amount of sizing worked until I tried the RCBS small base die screwed all the way to the shell plate and it was really hard work to resize that brass. I ended up recycling it and got some commercial instead and all is good now, easy resizing and no more cycling problems in the AR10.
hope this helps.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

My guess is that the expander ball is the culprit, at least when combined with LC brass. Here's why: Most sizing dies squeeze the neck down much smaller than needed. The reason is that they are made to work with any and all brands of brass, including the thinnest brass out there. When you run thicker brass through them, you get the problem we're talking about here.

Picture a case with thin neck walls. The die sizes the outside of the neck and it must get it small enough so that the inside is under bullet diameter even after the expander goes through and opens it back up a bit. Now picture that same O.D. but with a case with much thicker neck walls. The O.D. is the same but the I.D. is now ridiculously small, maybe .010 smaller than with the thinner brass.

Then when you try to pull the expander ball out of the neck, it's a real tug-of-war. That LC brass is not only thicker, it's also a tougher alloy than most commercial brass. Remember at that point, the rest of the case is completely unsupported by the die. As you yank the expander out of the neck, the shoulder is pulled upward. The sizing die sets the headspace, but all that yanking on the neck changes it and makes it longer. Lubing the neck or using a carbide sizer button can lessen the friction component, but there is still a fixed amount of upward force that must be used to open up that thick, undersized neck.

I've heard of grinding away the shellholder like mentioned above in order to compensate for a defective die (one that doesn't set the shoulder back far enough). But in this case, what you would be doing is setting the shoulder back too far in an attempt to offset the stretching that the expander is doing. My bet is that you'd get highly inconsistent results. You'd be treating the symptoms rather than addressing the real problem.

The best solution (also the most expensive) would be to get a bushing die which will let you set a proper neck size no matter what kind of brass you are using. Another solution would be to remove the expander ball when sizing the brass, then run the brass through a Sinclair Expander Die with an expansion mandrel. That would give you .002 -.003 of neck tension. If you wanted another .001 of tension, you could use a turning mandrel in the die instead. That would fix your problem for $35.

And it's not like that $35 is wasted on one batch of LC brass. Lots of folks use these same tools even with bushing dies because they (1) give you proper neck tension under any circumstances and (2) they push any neck irregularities to the outside and leave you with a perfectly round and centered I.D. I also use them on all of my new brass for the same reasons.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

Get rid of the expander ball. It is an unnecessary piece of equipment. Unless the new brass you buy is badly dinged up or deformed you don't need it. If you do run into messed up brass get an expander mandrel from Sinclair. It works so much better.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/cid=55...ase-Preparation

By using the mandrel first you can bring the neck of the case to round before any neck sizing and then you're not dragging an expander back through the neck after sizing.

Get a body die or remove the expander stem from a full length sizer and you'll be good to go.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another solution would be to remove the expander ball when sizing the brass, then run the brass through a Sinclair Expander Die with an expansion mandrel. That would give you .002 -.003 of neck tension. If you wanted another .001 of tension, you could use a turning mandrel in the die instead. That would fix your problem for $35.
</div></div>

Doing it with the expander die, you have to lube the inside of the case necks with it. This adds another step of removing the lube afterwards so i wouldnt think you would want to use it as a permanent solution. With new brass I can see using the expander die, turning if you want to (maybe a wee little to clean things up) then use a full length bushing die with no expander ball to size the neck and bump the shoulder .001 and just keep using the FL die each time so you never have to lube the inside of the neck again.

I'm shooting a 284 using Lapua 6.5x284 brass so I'm already having to use the expander once anyway. I hadn't considered getting rid of the expander ball until now but I will give that a try.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuiggyB</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With new brass I can see using the expander die, turning if you want to (maybe a wee little to clean things up) then use a full length bushing die with no expander ball to size the neck and bump the shoulder .001 and just keep using the FL die each time so you never have to lube the inside of the neck again.
</div></div>

Yeah, I use the expander mandrel before sizing and avoid having to use any lube. Some people might say that it'll hurt accuracy because of inconsistent neck tension by pushing the brass to the inside of the neck by sizing last. I guess I'm just not good enough of a shot to notice any discernible difference in group size with brass sized before or after the mandrel.
 
Re: Inconsistent Shoulder bump

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean Hagerty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before I went and removed metal on a die, I would try annealling the brass before I resize it. </div></div>

This is what I'd try first.