Initial seating depth while finding the right powder weight

vbogoev

Private
Minuteman
Sep 21, 2022
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5
Bulgaria
Hello guys,

I have 6.5 Creedmoor Tikka T3x Tac A1.

I'll use VihtaVuori N555, CCi 400 primers, 140gr ELD-M bullets.

I am wondering what's the best place to start with the seating depth - the COL provided by Hornady (2.800) or 0.020 from the lands. There's a huge difference between these numbers.
The ogive is touching the lands at:
COAL: 2.8960
CBTO: 2.2780

I am using the Wheeler Accuracy method, so it should be pretty accurate measurement.

My plan is to start with CBTO = 2.2580 and once I found the velocity node to increase the depth with 0.006 until I find the best group and so on (Erik Cortina method).

I am not sure if this could lead to some negative effects since the difference between the COL Hornady specified and my is 0.0960.

I'm already prepared for pressure signs tests from 38gr to 42.5gr, 0.5gr increment, just wondering for the seating depth.

Thanks.
 
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Here is what I do...

I start with ogive VERY close to the lands at -.002" to find max charge weight. Start at recommended minimum charge, load 3 rounds each at increasing charge weights, inspect after every trigger pull very closely, looking for indications of pressure. Once I see pressure, I back the charge weight down for obvious safety reasons. If I see pressure on the first of the 3 rounds, I just pull the bullets and dump those charges back into the can. I am not looking for any sort of target performance.

Then I start seating depth testing, holding the charge weight the same. I use 10 rounds of each deeper seating depth and shoot for grouping. In my experience, the VLD type will definitely have a seating depth that is more favorable than the others. Once I find that seating depth, I use the chrono to find velocity and start developing DOPE for this combination of equipment. I check velocity again from time to time for posterity. I do not chase the lands as I shoot that barrel.

Realize that once you start seating deeper and deeper, the pressure will also decrease.

Now, if components were more available, I would use this new seating depth and do another pressure seeking test. I have done this in the past. Most of the time, the effort proves futile because that original charge weight/seating depth combo was still more accurate than more testing. I believe this is because the 2 factors contribute to each other.
 
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I am planning to do something similar. That's why I wanted to start near the max at 0.020 off just in case and then I'll have only 1 way to go (deeper into the case) when tuning for seating depth. Just wasn't sure if this is the right approach. It seems like it is.
Have you shot any hornady factory ammo with that bullet? If so, how did it perform in your rifle?
 
I am planning to do something similar. That's why I wanted to start near the max at 0.020 off just in case and then I'll have only 1 way to go (deeper into the case) when tuning for seating depth. Just wasn't sure if this is the right approach. It seems like it is.
0.020" is quite a ways off. Start closer at 0.002"
That is, if it feeds from the magazine without issue.
I have 2 300 WINMAGS that I shoot 210 gr Berger VLD's. Those like to be 0.008" from the lands. I have a .223 Ackley that I shoot 80 gr Berger VLD's. Those like to be 0.006" off the lands.
Had I started at 0.02", I would have missed it and might have thought the bullets were shit or I had a shit barrel or something. As stated above, start close and move one direction so you aren't missing something and chasing your tail. Change one variable at a time so you are not compounding and trying to guess what is making a difference, good or bad.
 
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Yes, I shot 147gr ELD-M factory ammo, very good results, constantly making 0.5 MOA groups, and very often 0.3 MOA. But the velocity was awful - AVG: 2506, SD: 49, ES: 173, according to ProChrono DLX...
Velocity has nothing to do with precision. And if i had to choose, id take precision every time. Nice thing about reloading is you usually don’t have to choose just one or the other.

That said, you’re loading the 140 not the 147, right? Have you shot any Hornady 140 eld-m ammo?

147 is a bit too heavy imo for the 6.5CM
 
0.020" is quite a ways off. Start closer at 0.002"
That is, if it feeds from the magazine without issue.
I have 2 300 WINMAGS that I shoot 210 gr Berger VLD's. Those like to be 0.008" from the lands. I have a .223 Ackley that I shoot 80 gr Berger VLD's. Those like to be 0.006" off the lands.
Had I started at 0.02", I would have missed it and might have thought the bullets were shit or I had a shit barrel or something. As stated above, start close and move one direction so you aren't missing something and chasing your tail. Change one variable at a time so you are not compounding and trying to guess what is making a difference, good or bad.
I'd say the last 4 guns I load developed for shot great starting .001-003" off touch. Heck, competition shooters will shoot jam + and they still have their eyes and faces! LOL
 
I'd say the last 4 guns I load developed for shot great starting .001-003" off touch. Heck, competition shooters will shoot jam + and they still have their eyes and faces! LOL
Yes. The ONLY reason I start just barely off the lands is in case I need to extract a loaded round for whatever reason. I hate having the powder dumped all in the action because the bullet was stuck in the rifling and having to clean that mess. I mean, it's not difficult to get out but it perturbs me, nonetheless.
PLUS, I am not going to load my hunting rifles with a bullet in the rifling for that very same reason.
 
Start with minimum charge weight for your powder / bullet combo when finding seating depth.

I start at .010 off and go up to .040 off in .005 increments to find seating depth with Berger hybrids.

Once I’ve dialed the seating depth I work on finding the right powder charge.
 
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.020 off of touch with the wheeler method is where I start myself. I don’t care what the book says they do for legal idiots when what I’ve got in my hands is tangible.
.020 off is recommended so often because it’s rarely a poor starting point.
Wheeler method ? You must be very young ? The "Stripped bolt" method was being used long before that asshole declared himself god .
 
I have a question for you all starting .002” or so close to the lands. I’ve done that in the past and almost always ended up working to somewhere greater than .005” to get the best accuracy. I’ve had great success with hunting rifles starting .030”-.050” off. I’m about to load some 6.5 manbun with Nosler 140 RDF’s and H4350 and I’ve read they, along with other VLD’s like Berger, often like a large jump. I was thinking of starting at .030” off. Have you all found success loading VLD’s .002-.005” off? My rifle is the proverbial Origin, 26” PVA M24, KRG-B combo.
 
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I have a question for you all starting .002” or so close to the lands. I’ve done that in the past and almost always ended up working to somewhere greater than .005” to get the best accuracy. I’ve had great success with hunting rifles starting .030”-.050” off. I’m about to load some 6.5 manbun with Nosler 140 RDF’s and H4350 and I’ve read they, along with other VLD’s like Berger, often like a large jump. I was thinking of starting at .030” off. Have you all found success loading VLD’s .002-.005” off? My rifle is the proverbial Origin, 26” PVA M24, KRG-B combo.
My 25 creed is .005 thou off, my 260 was .005 thou off, my 6bra shoots well from .10 thou off to .005 thou jam.
 
wasting barrel life in .006 increments for data that isn't going to show much besides noise isn't my style

So, you’re recommending I don’t waste barrel life shooting too many rounds trying to squeeze an extra .25” or less out of a group because it’s not going to matter or actually make a big enough difference to matter anyway? You’ve likely hit the nail on the head as this rifle set up should group .75” or less with ease. Couple that with the fact my max range to shoot is 600 yards at my gun club and that makes real good sense. If I can get .5 moa groups consistently, I’ll be plenty happy.

I’ll add that I use a Hornady bullet comparator to find max seating depth and set load length.
 
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I have a question for you all starting .002” or so close to the lands. I’ve done that in the past and almost always ended up working to somewhere greater than .005” to get the best accuracy. I’ve had great success with hunting rifles starting .030”-.050” off. I’m about to load some 6.5 manbun with Nosler 140 RDF’s and H4350 and I’ve read they, along with other VLD’s like Berger, often like a large jump. I was thinking of starting at .030” off. Have you all found success loading VLD’s .002-.005” off? My rifle is the proverbial Origin, 26” PVA M24, KRG-B combo.
The majority of the rifle's precision is going to come from powder/bullet combo. If a rifle likes a combo when pushed to max brass saving pressure (Primer falls out after 6-7 loads) the seating depth becomes the micro adjustment. Too many try to use seating depth as a macro adjustment wasting time and components trying to polish a turd combo. I know! I've seen me do it! ;)

With that said, seating depth adjustments less than .010 is a waste of time and money. GASP, EGADS, I know, but it's true. Pop around by .010" at a time looking for the bughole out to .100" from lands. If you are not shooting ragged after that, then try a EC tuner brake. That M24 would sport that brake good!
 
The majority of the rifle's precision is going to come from powder/bullet combo. If a rifle likes a combo when pushed to max brass saving pressure (Primer falls out after 6-7 loads) the seating depth becomes the micro adjustment. Too many try to use seating depth as a macro adjustment wasting time and components trying to polish a turd combo. I know! I've seen me do it! ;)

With that said, seating depth adjustments less than .010 is a waste of time and money. GASP, EGADS, I know, but it's true. Pop around by .010" at a time looking for the bughole out to .100" from lands. If you are not shooting ragged after that, then try a EC tuner brake. That M24 would sport that brake good!
While he’s ordering the tuner from Eric, he should ask him why he test seating in 003” increments. I followed Eric’s advice and found I usually have my seating depth found in less than 15-20 shots. I also found, if you don’t want to be scratching your head and not sleeping thru the process, start by shooting thru your chrony until you get the desired SD, because if that’s not under control, everything else is just noise. I usually won’t even look at my groups, the numbers on the screen is the most important part of the process. If you can’t prep brass good enough to get single digit SDs then you need to start there. Forget seating until you can produce ammo good enough to benefit from it.
If your rifle is only a one moa capable rifle, then stop there. It’s not getting any better.
If I was going to half ass it, I’d just shoot factory ammo.
 
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The entire process as described in post #4 takes me less than 100 rounds and more generally I'm there with less than 50. Velocity tends to increase until I've put 200 rounds or so through the barrel. IMHO, that tells me the system isn't even broken in until the velocity settles in.
 
1. OP will run out of case capacity before he reaches max pressure.
2. Your load will fall apart if you make large seating depth changes without changing charge weight.
3. #2 is why you find your best seating depth close to the COAL where you found the best ES/SD.
 
The entire process as described in post #4 takes me less than 100 rounds and more generally I'm there with less than 50. Velocity tends to increase until I've put 200 rounds or so through the barrel. IMHO, that tells me the system isn't even broken in until the velocity settles in.
That’s another mistake rookies make, they start serious load development on a new barrel. 200 rounds is the minimum for me.
 
I have a question for you all starting .002” or so close to the lands. I’ve done that in the past and almost always ended up working to somewhere greater than .005” to get the best accuracy. I’ve had great success with hunting rifles starting .030”-.050” off. I’m about to load some 6.5 manbun with Nosler 140 RDF’s and H4350 and I’ve read they, along with other VLD’s like Berger, often like a large jump. I was thinking of starting at .030” off. Have you all found success loading VLD’s .002-.005” off? My rifle is the proverbial Origin, 26” PVA M24, KRG-B combo.
Post #9 and #12
 
One more nugget before I go finish my .243AI load development. (That's a hoot) A combo that is "forgiving" like you know you jacked up some fundamentals, but it still cutting bullets...great sign shits dialed in!
 
It’s easy to see the half ass loaders and factory ammo guys on the line. At about 600 yards they always hang with the group. Then about 650 or so, you see their shit fall apart, and the guys with meticulous loading practices start pulling away fast, and the score reflect it. It’s all about what you want to get out of the process. You put more into it, you’ll get more out.
 
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.100" off.

If it shoots there, it will shoot there until it croaks without you ever having to touch it again. If it doesn't, chances are it'll only take you a handful of rounds to walk it in and find a good jump range your bullets like.

Here's the thing: everything shoots good close to the lands, from 0.020" off into jam will work every time and with just about anything. IMO if someone can't print a decent group that close to the lands, it's the shooter, period.

Also, there is no such thing as a "velocity node", pick a speed and figure out how many grains of powder it takes to get there.

A faster bullet will always have a flatter trajectory than a slower bullet, that's science (not magic/special precision/accuracy from going fast), but running your loads up until you see pressure is pretty damn pointless in an age where we all have mini ballistic computers in our pockets, and all that really does is wear your barrel out faster.

That said, what is 100% proven around here is that 10 out of 10 fudds will tell you you're doing it right if you stay 0.020" off the lands or less, and keep adding powder until you need a mallet to open your bolt, because that's what they've been doing for years, so it must be right and the only way lol. 🙃
 
vbogoev:

You’re going to end up around 43.5-44 grains with this combo and your loads at 42grs will be slow. Tikka barrels are slow and people naturally want to be in the 2750 FPS range with 140s and 24” barrels.

Every bullet/powder/primer/barrel combo is a little different. You’re just going to have to see for yourself. In my 24” barrel (not a Tikka) I get good groups around 2.810” and 2.850” with the 140 ELD-M doing about 2730 FPS. I think those are common coals where people find accuracy. They are a good place to start.
 
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So, you’re recommending I don’t waste barrel life shooting too many rounds trying to squeeze an extra .25” or less out of a group because it’s not going to matter or actually make a big enough difference to matter anyway? You’ve likely hit the nail on the head as this rifle set up should group .75” or less with ease. Couple that with the fact my max range to shoot is 600 yards at my gun club and that makes real good sense. If I can get .5 moa groups consistently, I’ll be plenty happy.

I’ll add that I use a Hornady bullet comparator to find max seating depth and set load length.
Yassir, I do believe that is what he say!
.5 MOA "all day long" makes a lot of us happy!
DTL gauges are ok. Not necessary though with the gravity method if ya ain't got widgets and gidgets!
600yds is a fun ass place to shoot. Get some IPSC plates and run head shot challenges. Get 3 IPSC plates and line them up for wind call practice. Seeing the effect of wind with impacts trumps having your nose in the 4 DOF! ;) If you got a right to left wind, shoot the right plate with no correction and get a real sense of the drift. Vice versa of course for left wind! Bring your wheeler and some spray paint. Unless you are up for some huffing and puffing. Setup like this: Edited to add: Plates from shootsteel.com and the stand equipment from Menards/Lowes/Etc.

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start by shooting thru your chrony until you get the desired SD, because if that’s not under control, everything else is just noise.

I couldn’t agree more. This has kept me from going down rabbit holes in the past, even with hunting loads. Last summer I was developing loads for my 270. I had switched from R22, I had used for years, to R26. I was using Remington brass and I noticed when seating bullets that the effort to seat was different. While I got some decent groups, my SD’s were not where I wanted them and the lowest group SD was between loads with high SD’s not not great groups, so too tight of a node. I recently got a annealer, which should help, and I switched to Nosler brass which is higher quality. Now I have to run the test over.
 
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From what I've gathered listening to what I could find coming from actual engineers that some of the ammo makers have on staff these days, dudes that have studied this stuff deeper than any of us likely could:
Statistically speaking... a guy using good rifle components (stock/chassis/action/barrel/trigger) and using good reloading components, and who also happens to be a really good reloader (as in better than the average guy who owns a bunch of reloading shit)... can expect being able to put together a 1/2 MOA gun that stays that way over the life of a barrel (again, if they're really good).

Some are going to be luckier than others more or less based on how much better of an "ammo factory" they can run. Obviously, the more consistent the ammo is, the more consistent the gun.

How good your "ammo factory" is, is what's most directly responsible for determining the Standard Deviation numbers you will see when you shoot over a chronograph. It's not a magic powder charge or magic seating depth number, it's how good you are at making the exact same round over and over again, so they're all as exact as you can get to them being "clones" of one and another.

Obviously, some are going to see better than 1/2 MOA (especially at 100 yards), and that can also be dependent on how lucky they are, but it usually also has a lot to do with how they choose to load.

Option #1:
If all you care about is small groups, or trying to get the smallest groups possible at a set range: then load close to the lands and/or jam the fuckers. Because it works, every time.
However, don't be surprised if your waterline/POI at different distances is garbage, and trying to get your MV and BC to line up and play nice with what your ballistic calculator spits out may be a shit show as that's a known resulting trade-off. It will also probably only get worse as the barrel gets hot.
For best results, go total OCD, shit like: when you seat bullets, you might want to first seat them a little long, then on a second pass, seat them again OCD-style using calipers and a comparator measuring CBTO so they're all within a thou or dead nuts.

Option #2:
If you want a gun that's boringly reliable at multiple distances, you really can't get caught up chasing bug holes at 100, you'll need to find a bullet-jump that is as far off the lands as you can go while still being able to print a .5" group at 100 on command (and/or a 2" group at 400 on command, etc, out to 1000 or so).
For some bullets, that very well might put one as close as 0.020" off, but most of the time it's no closer than like ~0.040" off even with the most finicky VLD's out there. These days in PRS-style circles I hear ~0.070"- 0.120" off as more the norm than the exception it once was.
Why jump? The lands erode less quickly so the barrel stays "the same" longer, it becomes more forgiving to the variances in seating depth of a few thou that most of our seating dies produce (even the best ones), and the waterline/POI/vertical dispersion becomes predictable and consistent downrange (all the way downrange).
Using a healthy jump, one can true their MV at 500-600, true their BC at 750-1000, and pretty much not have to worry about their dope again (other than weather and wind). On repeat range trips, most times all that will be needed is to update the weather in your solver and go shoot, getting first round impacts at distance.

For me, I'm not a guy who spends too much time specifically shooting groups, but I do practice them enough to know the difference between me sucking at shooting vs the gun sucking at shooting. I believe it's important to be honest with yourself about that fact to get anywhere (a LOT of guys aren't). I just look for multiple holes touching at 100, usually 3 out of 5 or so, or 2 out of 3, enough to know it's not just a coincidence. Once I see that I'm getting that over and over again, without trying too hard, and they're all .5" or under at 100 (1/2 MOA)... my load development is done. With a new barrel I put 200rds downrange at .100" off using a safe middle-of-the-road charge based off whatever the book charge is before I make any decisions and set anything in stone.

Once I have a set load recipe, it is what it is until the barrel dies, it never changes.
 
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vbogoev:

You’re going to end up around 43.5-44 grains with this combo and your loads at 42grs will be slow. Tikka barrels are slow and people naturally want to be in the 2750 FPS range with 140s and 24” barrels.

Every bullet/powder/primer/barrel combo is a little different. You’re just going to have to see for yourself. In my 24” barrel (not a Tikka) I get good groups around 2.810” and 2.850” with the 140 ELD-M doing about 2730 FPS. I think those are common coals where people find accuracy. They are a good place to start.
You're absolutely right. I went to the range and ended up with a slow velocity even at 42.5. That was the maximum load I had so I'll continue upwards as far as I can, because the case capacity is starting to be a problem. These days I'll make additional tests. I decided to test at CBTO: 2.2580 (-0.020) and I had no issues at all. I was surprised from the group also, given the fact I had a bad mirage due to the cold weather and no time to wait for the barrel to cool down enough. The group is at 110 yards. Max velocity so far at 42.5 - 2601fps. I had 2 rounds at 42.5 and both were with exactly the same speed.
 

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You're absolutely right. I went to the range and ended up with a slow velocity even at 42.5. That was the maximum load I had so I'll continue upwards as far as I can, because the case capacity is starting to be a problem. These days I'll make additional tests. I decided to test at CBTO: 2.2580 (-0.020) and I had no issues at all. I was surprised from the group also, given the fact I had a bad mirage due to the cold weather and no time to wait for the barrel to cool down enough. The group is at 110 yards. Max velocity so far at 42.5 - 2601fps. I had 2 rounds at 42.5 and both were with exactly the same speed.
Were you making windage corrections in that group, or is that just how they flew? If one can draw a definite line through their impacts like that it is a tell tale sign of body position/NPOA. (Natural Point of Aim) If you were clicking, that scope tracks really good. Your elevation is balls on!

I shot my first Berger VLDs today. Started at touch and I ain't touching nothing else with this load! :p

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