INSURANCE "RIDERS" for FIREARMS...

[stymie]

I'm sure that many shooter/collectors have pondered what the best options for "insuring" their firearms are in today's ever changing market & political climate. A safe(s)/vault secured to a concrete slab, a monitored alarm system, steel doors with extended dead bolts/beefed up striker plates/framing, observant/friendly neighbors/neighborhoods are fairly obvious. Home fires, floods (FEMA coverage is essential), theft & other factors can come into play. Being pro-active about such matters as far as prevention are a matter of course. Then again, some things are out of your control & guacamole happens despite your concerted efforts.

For the purpose of this discussion, I'd like to focus on Home Owner's Insurance policies & "riders" for collectibles... especially NFA related items & high-end Title 1 firearms. There is a growing trend for some companies to avoid taking on an assumed risk associated with expensive & difficult to replace guns even though the owner has an established track record of paying exorbitant premiums in a timely manner, with no claims & has shown a true sense of responsibility for decades. This is where records/receipts, appraisals, video/photographic backup & on file evolving insurance descriptions & reevaluations can make or break you on claims beyond the typical $5K allowance on a typical home owner policy.

Certainly, having a cooperative insurance agent/underwriter w/o an anti-gun mindset can be a real plus.

My question for those of you who have taken all of the above into account & have "riders" well beyond the $5K limit on conventional policies & have insured their collections for "current market value" is: who would you recommend, bearing in mind that anyone can take your money, but the real test comes if or when you actually make a "claim"?

Prior to FOPA '86, it wasn't such a major issue, but supply vs. demand on pre-'86 "transferable" NFA has created artificial "inflation" that has turned a nib SWD M11/9 smg that may have set you back $400 (+$200 TAX stamp) back in the good old days into an unprecedented $4.8K. Perhaps, you acquired an OEM COLT M16A1 carbine nib for $4K in '97 & today, BATFE authorized FFLs with appropriate SOTs are offering the same highly desirable weapon in many cases for well over $25K... "take it or leave it". Insuring even a relatively modest collection can, in some instances, cost more than the insurance on your house.

Enthusiasts realize that you have to pay to play, but newcomers to this game where the "rules" are in a constant state of flux/reinterpretation are shut out by more pressing priorities & the fact that a dollar just doesn't go very far, anymore. We live in an era where the political machine is eager to play with semantics & toy with the emotional heartstrings of the populace by demonizing the tool rather than the "tool" behind the tool. Guns will always have a certain intrinsic value, but with an EO & the stroke of a pen, contraband would become "uninsurable" & this topic, a moot point.

That said, for the time being at least... what are the current, most affordable, viable venues for dealing with gun related insurance "riders"?

Thanks & have a great day!

 

[Darkside-Six]

Take this for what it's worth but coming from a licensed Insurance agent in the state of Michigan.

I've worked for the 2 largest insrance companies out there, State Farm and Allstate. Both treated the issue the same way. There are 2 ways to go about what you seek. There are "riders" and "Scheduling" A rider gives you an extended amount above and beyond the normal amount that is included with your home owners policy. That can usually sufice for the average bear that has10 AR 15's and a couple of nice rifles. If you really want the best protection and you have some higher end items, NFA items, collectables, anitques then you're going to want to actualy schedule each item individually like you would for say....your wifes wedding ring or other expensive jewelry.

By scheduling then you will recover fair market value in todays market as apose to just what you paid for the rifle. Scheduling tends to be more expensive but if you have expensive items then it is your best option to guarantee you are made whole in the event of theft or destruction.

One thing I always recomended people do is to keep a journal/log book with the items values, serial numbers, ext. But you can also take a video camera and go through each item individually and explain what it is and what it's worth. Burn that to a CD and have your insurance agent keep it in your file incase something happens.

 

[Unknown]

OP,
Paragraphs are your friend. They make reading your postings MUCH easier. Many people simply won't read postings without paragraphs.

 

[Cornholeo]

Good info and definitely something I will check with my State farm agent on this week. One of those things seldom thought of...at least for me.

 

[drafter]

I called and got a quote awhile back and decided against it, but as things get worse I'm going to need to fork out the cash just in case.

 

[ghostwriter247]

Right on dark side. I'm licensed in a number of states.

Most people don't realize a standard home owners policy has a standard exclusion for theft of firearms, jewelry and electronics.

For firearms it's $2500. If you haven't scheduled or have a rider that you have specific listing on your declarations page or billing make sure you ask about it.

If its not there you don't have it. Read you exclusions section of your policy paperwork. You might be very surprised how little coverage you have for theft.

Forewarned is fore armed.

 

[Pester]

Scheduling tends to be more expensive but if you have expensive items then it is your best option to guarantee you are made whole in the event of theft or destruction.

On order of magnitude, is scheduling 10%, 25% 100% more expensive? Also, if ones wife has some jewelry and there are high end sporting goods, guns, etc is there the concept of an umbrella type policy one might get or is it really down to itemizing items?

Thanks

 

[Darkside-Six]

On order of magnitude, is scheduling 10%, 25% 100% more expensive? Also, if ones wife has some jewelry and there are high end sporting goods, guns, etc is there the concept of an umbrella type policy one might get or is it really down to itemizing items?

Thanks

It's hard to say as far as price. It's a case by case bases.

An umbrella policy is to protect you from liability, not damage so an umbrella policy won't help with this.

Best way is to schedule individual items.



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[bogeybrown]

I do NOT want to start a "foil hat" conspiracy tangent here. I'm asking because there are a couple of insurance professionals here and I'd like their opinion:

When I'm done overseas I'll likely be moving from a free state to an occupied state with an insane crime rate. In my current location I don't have any worries about government interference in my life. Where I'm moving to it's the rule rather than the exception. So with that in mind, is there legitimate concern for submitting an itemized list of firearms to an insurance carrier?

When the question of gun insurance has come up in the past, it's quickly devolved into the "no way is anyone getting a list of my guns" hysteria. I understand that if I'm asking a company to write insurance on a collection of items that costs more than pretty much any car not made in Italy, then it's reasonable for them to want details. However, do those of you in the industry see a scenario in which the local government could access or compel the production of said insurance policies?

I am making every effort to comply with the laws of my new home, to include the storage of prohibited items in a safe deposit box in the neighboring state. However, new regulations tend to be capricious and retro-active, so should an item BECOME illegal, I'd have to make some decisions on how I responded, and a list of everything I have in the government's hands would severely limit my options.

SO, could any of you in the insurance business offer any opinion? or suggest a vendor/source that doesn't require a list? If USAA will write a renters policy on my new place I may be alright, because I think they'll insure the firearms without a list, but I'm not sure I can get a policy through them on the new place.

 

[ghostwriter247]

The short answer and probably not the one that will make you feel better is if you won't give them a list, They don't have to insure you. Generally speaking. Maybe you could find a company that would.

Insurance companies have wide latitude in how they offer based on minimum guidelines of what they must offer. So there can be differences in requirements. It's very hard to speak concretely beyond our own companies.

As far as the government is concerned, I think at this point, given recent cases you should probably just figure if its on file they can compel almost any commercial information with a search warrant. But honestly I don't worry that they are doing it now. That's not tin foil stuff, that's just the justice system.

 

[bogeybrown]

The short answer and probably not the one that will make you feel better is if you won't give them a list, They don't have to insure you. Generally speaking. Maybe you could find a company that would.

Insurance companies have wide latitude in how they offer based on minimum guidelines of what they must offer. So there can be differences in requirements. It's very hard to speak concretely beyond our own companies.

As far as the government is concerned, I think at this point, given recent cases you should probably just figure if its on file they can compel almost any commercial information with a search warrant. But honestly I don't worry that they are doing it now. That's not tin foil stuff, that's just the justice system.

Fair enough, I appreciate it. I'm not averse to providing it. If I want insurance then it's only reasonable for me to provide the company with what they need. I'm at the point where if I sold my house I couldn't come up with enough money to replace my guns/optics, so it's a case of NEEDING the coverage, not just wanting it.

I'm keeping my house in free territory as a bail out plan in the event that living up north becomes untenable, or I can move to the neighboring state which is still free and a reasonable commute, so if I get bit by listing my firearms then I can always move back to America.

 

[jrassy]

Armscare plus, NRA endorsed firearm insurance company has affordable insurance, although they require scheduling, they do not require serial numbers. Check them out.

 

[drafter]

Lets say I have $25,000.00 worth of "normal", every day guns? I just want $25,000.00 in coverage, but I might buy/sell/trade a dozen of them in a years time. I don't want to have to bother the insurance co. every time I make a transaction.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I do NOT want to start a "foil hat" conspiracy tangent here. I'm asking because there are a couple of insurance professionals here and I'd like their opinion:

When I'm done overseas I'll likely be moving from a free state to an occupied state with an insane crime rate. In my current location I don't have any worries about government interference in my life. Where I'm moving to it's the rule rather than the exception. So with that in mind, is there legitimate concern for submitting an itemized list of firearms to an insurance carrier?

When the question of gun insurance has come up in the past, it's quickly devolved into the "no way is anyone getting a list of my guns" hysteria. I understand that if I'm asking a company to write insurance on a collection of items that costs more than pretty much any car not made in Italy, then it's reasonable for them to want details. However, do those of you in the industry see a scenario in which the local government could access or compel the production of said insurance policies?

I am making every effort to comply with the laws of my new home, to include the storage of prohibited items in a safe deposit box in the neighboring state. However, new regulations tend to be capricious and retro-active, so should an item BECOME illegal, I'd have to make some decisions on how I responded, and a list of everything I have in the government's hands would severely limit my options.

SO, could any of you in the insurance business offer any opinion? or suggest a vendor/source that doesn't require a list? If USAA will write a renters policy on my new place I may be alright, because I think they'll insure the firearms without a list, but I'm not sure I can get a policy through them on the new place.

If you're getting a renter policy then you definitely want to schedule items. Problem with Renters policies is that they DO cover personal items you own that are in a storage, however it is a very low number. Homeowners covers personal property away from the house that includes storage units.

From my experience I don't think your insurance company will give your list of firearms out. I'm sure the government could always subpoena them but they would really need a good cause IMO.

I don't know of any company out there that wll schedule something without a list or some kind of itemization. Otherwise there would be a lot of fraud.

Also, I'm fairly certain that most insurance companies are not going to keep up on which firearms may become illegal. There job is to make money and they would lose a hell of a lot of business if they started trying to govern which guns you can and can't insure.

Again, this is only from personal experience and as I said, i'm only privy to Michigan insurance guidelines.

 

[Shoottothrill]

I have state farm and it was really easy. My agent came over and looked at my guns and I gave him receipts and pictures of them and I felt totally comfortable doing so. Everytime I buy a new one I just send him a picture and copy of receipt. I have full replacement policy for guns and my gals jewelry and its only 240 bucks a year. Cheap insurance and just one of the security layers, besides and dog, safe and alarm.

 

[Ken6881]

I have renters insurance through usaa. And it did not cost me anything to add a gun valued under 1k. And any over we're barely any more.


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[stymie]

I posted this question on a friend's FAILBOOK Page & he suggested that I go to subguns.com's website & try the Archive Search Function. I had a moment of nostalgia as I reflected on the plethora of posts I have made there & various other sites on the net. I was trying to remember the exact names of a couple of highly recommended Insurance Companies who excel in matters such as this one & NO Organ Donor Card is required. I have the necessary "riders" but the premiums have gotten a bit obscene. I have a friend who I deal with who has a SOT & has the very same Insurance Company. He decided that it was cheaper in the long run to build a NUKE-proof vault at his residence than to pay the ransom for something, hopefully, he will never need. IMHO... that's like a trip to Lost Wages, NV. We have to live with our choices.

I prefer to stay with the company that I have been conducting business with for over 30 years. I don't usually go for the change the horse in mid-stream scenario. I tolerated an incompetent buffer zone employee with a bad attitude who no longer works there for fairly obvious reasons. The agent I signed up with initially lost the LIFE lottery & is now residing in Insurance Heaven. RIP/"HAWK", KJM! He "earned" my business, but the character who replaced him "inherited it". This new fellow is unresponsive to my correspondence & is difficult to reach &/or persuade to return phone calls. I have provided receipts for recent purchases & appraisals almost 6 weeks ago... & NOTHING, NADA! Don't you just hate that? You know... having to pursue someone who apparently has better things to do than attend to the business at hand in a very competitive service industry economy? One of the items that I want to add to the "rider" is a rather nice THERMAL clip-on/stand-alone weapon sight from L-3 Warrior Systems. Yeah, that was $11K well spent & yes, his secretary received my PAID Invoice. *crickets chirping*

I made it perfectly clear to her that there exist other, perhaps hungrier agents who work for the home office & that a courtesy response... perhaps, a billing indicating "coverage" would be in order? We'll just have to see how that turns out in the next 10 days as she has forwarded my documentation to those above her pay grade to make the final decision on how to handle this matter.

*back to the 1st paragraph. Here's a copy & paste of my reply to my friend's suggestion to search the archives in the bowels of subguns.com.
I did try the Wayback Machine @ subguns & I'm fairly certain that you have the name correct (as I remember it... along with "Historic Firearms"), but it seems that either CIA changed its name or is no longer in business. The $86,000 question has always been: Has anyone ever filed a "claim" & if so, what were the results? No one seems to have had that experience or bothered to share their story. Insurance quotes are all over the place when inquiring about premiums, deductibles & certain stipulations apply. There are a lot of companies that have similar names, but "Collectibles Insurance Agency" seems to have drifted off RADAR for several years. Of course, there's never a problem with insurance companies gladly taking your money, but you'd need an attorney to explain all of the exclusions which are abundant. Unfortunately, you have to be victimized to find out the straight skinny after the fact & that's what I'm hoping to avoid.

This may be a bit off topic, but I've been with a certain well respected insurance agency for 3 decades. I have a home owner's policy bundled with riders for musical instruments & firearms along with collision/comprehensive on two cars & FEMA flood damage. The ONLY claim that I have ever made in all those years dealt with the proverbial Act of GOD. In February of 2002, we had a rather nasty ICE STORM. That brought down a 55' tall Elm tree between my house & my neighbor's. While the main trunk missed for the most part, some rather large branches damaged the roof, A/C unit & fence. It cost me $2,200 out of pocket to dismantle/haul off the tree that was totally destroyed & another $500 to grind the stump. There was widespread damage in KC & contractors were booked to the limit. I didn't even see an insurance adjuster for over 3 weeks to evaluate my claim. I took mass quantities of photographs, submitted receipts & provided paid invoices only to receive $100 for just the tree related issues. That was a real eye opener; but wait... there's more. The extreme cold with requisite power failure for days on end lead to spoiled food, broken water lines, damaged inert gas seals on windows ad nauseum. It was the next best thing to having NO insurance at all... but I digress.

It's times like these when I think of a new car purchase & the manufacturer's warranty. The real beauty of a warranty is never having to use it. If you have ever been stuck with a LEMON, you know exactly where I'm coming from. Insurance isn't much different.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

I go with USAA, and while I don't know the exact terminology I believe my costs are very reasonable. I'm not too keen on exact phraseology so I so do this the best I can. I have them under special coverage. Zero deductible, no questions asked replacement. All of my weapons include the accessories that are attached to them, and the upgrades as well. The coverage includes competition, and hunting accidents. So say I drop a damage the weapon in a 3 gun. They replace it. They don't just give me the money either, they actually replace it with a new weapon. I found this out through two events. The first event is when I was deployed I had a step mother that actually stole weapons from my storage unit. 4 of them to be exact. I filed the police report, and reported it to USAA. I did not receive a payment however over the next 90 days they replaced the actual item with the same item. I did not pay a dime. Everything was new, and correct, including my weatherby accurmark 7mm mag and optics that were on it. No deductible mind you. The other time was at a 3 gun competition I had a parts failure that resulted in weapon damage. I filed a claim, and they replaced the weapon. Again no deductible no questions asked.

I have each and every one of my weapons and their attachments (including attachment serial numbers) individually insured. Were talking about around 20 weapons, and I pay about 400$ a year to insure them. Each one is individually insured and priced separately. No deductible. This does include some antiques and some very valuable weapons. This also includes some things like binocs, night vision optics, scopes, rds, and some other gadgets. Oh I forgot and a number of guitars, including a Taylor 12 String KOA, Les Paul autographed recording model, and some other high end stuff. I vote for USAA.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

I go with USAA, and while I don't know the exact terminology I believe my costs are very reasonable....

...I vote for USAA.

Same here. The policy details are online, and if I buy or sell a gun, all I have to do is log into my USAA online account and edit the list of covered items. The premium is a fixed ratio based on total combined value, and it is charged as a line item on my homeowner's. So every time I make a change, the premium automatically gets adjusted come my next homeowner's payment.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Same here. The policy details are online, and if I buy or sell a gun, all I have to do is log into my USAA online account and edit the list of covered items. The premium is a fixed ratio based on total combined value, and it is charged as a line item on my homeowner's. So every time I make a change, the premium automatically gets adjusted come my next homeowner's payment.

The second part to this, is how easy it made filing a police report. I can pull up a report online that shows my serial numbers (while I do keep photos, just in case kind of deal). No need to talk to anyone, or have anything faxed. Just pull it up, and print it.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Armscare plus, NRA endorsed firearm insurance company has affordable insurance, although they require scheduling, they do not require serial numbers. Check them out.

Lets say I have $25,000.00 worth of "normal", every day guns? I just want $25,000.00 in coverage, but I might buy/sell/trade a dozen of them in a years time. I don't want to have to bother the insurance co. every time I make a transaction.

Fair enough, I appreciate it. I'm not averse to providing it. If I want insurance then it's only reasonable for me to provide the company with what they need. I'm at the point where if I sold my house I couldn't come up with enough money to replace my guns/optics, so it's a case of NEEDING the coverage, not just wanting it.

I'm keeping my house in free territory as a bail out plan in the event that living up north becomes untenable, or I can move to the neighboring state which is still free and a reasonable commute, so if I get bit by listing my firearms then I can always move back to America.

I have insurance through Lockton Affinity, the one referenced here endorsed by NRA. There is no need to list fire-arms, unless over a specified value, then only to the point of saying $6500.00 Remington 700P, with Lilja Barrel, Nighforce Scope, Accurate Sports Chassis,... for the value and attached options on the high valued rifle or handgun. No serial numbers needed. Covers weapons lost from a locked vehicle, in your house, fire, theft, you name it. I have $20K insurance with them, two listed rifles, and numerous unlisted (I keep a list myself in a safe, secure location). This costs me about $185/year, easy to change and update. If you get an excess value fire-arm, call them, and they will bind it and send a bill for the change in cost.

Easy to deal with.

 

[stymie]

That's just outstanding & thanks for sharing! In these uncertain times, it's refreshing to know that there still is HOPE. I wanted to conduct a bit of research prior to "retiring" my current agent/agency. The BUDDA amp, Gibson Custom Shop Lesters, BC RICH BICH, Fender STRATs & TELEs ...as well as a pretentious SEIKO SpringDrive Chronograph are no big deal, but the guns, well... that's another story. As I play for my own & my neighbors' amusement ONLY, that reduces the premium to a non professional status, read: for cheap; No BARROOM brawls, clumsy drunks, hecklers & sticky fingers. I wore out the vinyl several times listening to LED ZEPPELIN's 1st album & I blame Sir James Patrick Page for sending me on my downward spiral. Too bad that I'm a hack. Every time that I check MUSICIAN'S FRIEND online to purchase TALENT, I'm always dismayed to find that it's still on back order. I'll admit to having skewed priorities, but then again, life is short, I just turned 65 & I'm not getting any prettier. The guns? I was raised by a TV set & watched way too much I SPY & The Man From U.N.C.L.E..

*just preparing for some snappy comebacks when JAKE gets inevitable on me with the same old song & dance.

Perhaps, this will be a wake up call... an epiphany for other "slackers" who refuse to carry their fair share of the weight. The nerve of some people... seriously.

"Plunk your Magic tW@nGeR, FROGGY!"

As it is written, so shall it be done... SURVEY SAYS: USAA

Thanks again for all of YOUR feedback. This site is a splendid BR@INTRU$T.

 

[stymie]

What's a proper HUMP DAY w/o a little (insurable... just to stay on topic, more or less) gratuitous GUN, CAR & GUITAR prOn... ? I was about to ask FLO the PROGRESSIVE gal what I could get with their price gun & invasive SN@PSHOT/PRISM GPS Tracker. Name your price! OK, $0.0. She pointed toward the VOID & said: deep space, widest possible angle of dispersion.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

I have always been a fan of the naked guitars, that's a great looking strat.

 

[stymie]

USAA INSURANCE is geared to folks who have a military background if I'm not mistaken. Is that a correct assessment?

 

[Ken6881]

USAA INSURANCE is geared to folks who have a military background if I'm not mistaken. Is that a correct assessment?

Yes and there families. So if your parent was ever in the military they can get it then since you were a dependent of them at some point you can get it for yourself. Then your children can get it and so on.


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[DocUSMCRetired]

USAA INSURANCE is geared to folks who have a military background if I'm not mistaken. Is that a correct assessment?

And thier kids, grandkids

 

[standpipe]

What if no one in your family have a military background, can you as a civilian still get insurance from USAA ? If so would you get the same pricing as mil members ?

 

[ghostwriter247]

Best to call them and ask. Their rules for inclusion have changed drastically lately in an attempt to grow.

 

[Ken6881]

No you won't be able to. It's a nonprofit bank, insurance company only for military and there family.


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[gaphighpower]

I go with USAA, and while I don't know the exact terminology I believe my costs are very reasonable. I'm not too keen on exact phraseology so I so do this the best I can. I have them under special coverage. Zero deductible, no questions asked replacement. All of my weapons include the accessories that are attached to them, and the upgrades as well. The coverage includes competition, and hunting accidents. So say I drop a damage the weapon in a 3 gun. They replace it. They don't just give me the money either, they actually replace it with a new weapon. I found this out through two events. The first event is when I was deployed I had a step mother that actually stole weapons from my storage unit. 4 of them to be exact. I filed the police report, and reported it to USAA. I did not receive a payment however over the next 90 days they replaced the actual item with the same item. I did not pay a dime. Everything was new, and correct, including my weatherby accurmark 7mm mag and optics that were on it. No deductible mind you. The other time was at a 3 gun competition I had a parts failure that resulted in weapon damage. I filed a claim, and they replaced the weapon. Again no deductible no questions asked.

I have each and every one of my weapons and their attachments (including attachment serial numbers) individually insured. Were talking about around 20 weapons, and I pay about 400$ a year to insure them. Each one is individually insured and priced separately. No deductible. This does include some antiques and some very valuable weapons. This also includes some things like binocs, night vision optics, scopes, rds, and some other gadgets. Oh I forgot and a number of guitars, including a Taylor 12 String KOA, Les Paul autographed recording model, and some other high end stuff. I vote for USAA.

Damn. And I thought they were just the best auto and homeowner insurer, firearms too?!?

1. Do you have to schedule scopes, stocks, high end stuff individually?
2. Would they insure NV stuff?
3. Who gets possession of that "damaged" 3-gun weapon you got replaced?

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Damn. And I thought they were just the best auto and homeowner insurer, firearms too?!?

1. Do you have to schedule scopes, stocks, high end stuff individually?
2. Would they insure NV stuff?
3. Who gets possession of that "damaged" 3-gun weapon you got replaced?

They insured my scopes and night vision. But I didn't ask if they will or wont, I told the lady it was part of the deal, and she wrote in the serial numbers. They replaced it in the past, they even added in custom stocks as being part of the weapon incase its stolen. Both my sets of night vision are insured. This is a direct quote "Guns - Legally-owned firearms, scopes, cases and accessories." USAA gets the damaged weapons, as they have essentially bought them, like when you total a car.

 

[LearningAsIGo]

Armscare plus, NRA endorsed firearm insurance company has affordable insurance, although they require scheduling, they do not require serial numbers. Check them out.

I use this as well. They schedule any gun over $2,500 I believe. No serial numbers. Pricing is pretty reasonable too. The only thing I am unclear on is how they cover suppressors, I asked and basically was told it was only covered if attached to a weapon?

 

[lobo56]

I am a son of military father. Divorced........and my ex is still receiving USAA!!

 

[stymie]

LearningAsIGo... My best guess would be that firearms with integral rather than detachable suppressors are covered. The only way to be sure would be to pose the question again in that context.