Interesting Piece - K43?

[FatBoy]

I have never seen one of these before. Anyone have the rundown on what it was, etc. From the tooling marks it looks like it would have been late war production.


https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...many-excellent-condition.195599/#post-1376515

 

[Laseredge]

Yes. G/K43. That one was made by Walther. 8mm Mauser semi auto with a 10 round detachable box mag.
I had a couple of parts guns 20 years ago. Neat rifle, but a little scary too. Late war, sand cast receiver, lots of stamped parts.
4X ZF-4? scope.

 

[pmclaine]

Hitler's Garand.

They were better served by the STG 44 and the like.

 

[sandwarrior]

Fatboy,

As noted above yes, G/K43. An idea Hitler had put down in his quest for glory was research and development on these. He had his own ideas as to how the military should fight. These were a full power 8mm round whereas the STG was the scaled down 8mm Kurz. It took a lot of time before people could get their heads wrapped around the fact that a smaller round kills just fine. We had this same mentality in America about full power vs.scaled down assault rounds. We used the M1 Carbine to great effect as an assault rifle late in WWII. But, the brass wouldn't give up the 30-06 and when it did change, we shaved a few ounces and called it the 7.62x51. The G/K43 proves an 8mm could have gone into a rifle. It just never had the chance to get the bugs all worked out.

As a kind of perspective of that time, the STG44 was also put on the chopping block. Again, Hitlers idea of how to do things. It wasn't until it totally dominated the Russians on the Germans way out of Russia that it was seriously seen as a game changer. After the extraction of what was left of the Germans, he was told they needed more of "these rifles". Hitlers response was "what rifles?" These projects were greatly diminished or cancelled throughout the early part of WWII. Had the Germans had these issues worked out before the start of the war, we may have been in for a much bigger, nastier fight.

 

[Dan M]

Remember that the Czechs used them post war... and produced RID mounts for them and telescopes, as well as rebuilding original scopes. Stock might be a replica...or someone took a long time to sand and seal an original stock.

That is a rifle that would need to be examined in person to make a judgement...the stock finish would hurt its value as a collectable. As with everything, buy the rifle not the story.

 

[Laseredge]

The two G43’s I had were from mostly original parts, the receivers were sand cast and machined inside, the barrels were pinned in place. Sarco sold original and repro. parts, springs, scope mounts etc. I had a post war ZF-4 scope in a repro. mount. The glass was decent enough, and the better of the 2 rifles would group 2-3” at 100 yds..

I was reenacting WW2 German in Va, Md, Pa in the late 80’s-early 90’s. there were original MG 34/42’s, and even a few STG 44’s around. I had an MP40 tube gun that looked really good, and ran well too. Everything was blank adapted.

 

[Ledzep]

Yeah the Germans captured SVT38's and SVT40's and used their piston system to step up from the Gewehr 41, which used (unreliable) gas traps at the muzzle. For whatever reason, the Germans didn't want to drill a gas port into the barrel and instead opted to collect the gas at the muzzle and try to send it back to cycle the action with the G41 and it mostly failed in any kind of adverse conditions. There were two versions of the G41, I believe Mauser and Walther. The Mauser version could be worked as a bolt action rifle, also. Anyway, incredibly complex to make and unreliable so not many got made. The G43 was a pretty big improvement but still had issues. Way overgassed and they like to beat themselves to death, combined with some metallurgy issues at the end of the war it's not uncommon for receivers to get cracked or broken from the bolt slamming to the rear. Aftermarket gas systems exist to tone them down to safely run and not hurt anything. I think estimates are that there were 200,000-300,000 made before the war ended.

Price is totally dependent on condition. For the rifle in the OP I'd want to know:
What serial numbers are there and what matches?
Is the scope an original German wartime production?

The mount appears original, but as with everything German you have to watch out because there's reproductions and fakes all over. The stock is original, but definitely looks refinished at least, if not sanded and refinished.

Typical rifle values range between $1800 for mixmaster Czech rifles to $3500ish or so for all matching original GI bringback rifles. Some museum quality rifles go for more ($4000+). That is without the scope. Original scope and mount is probably worth $600-1000 or so depending on condition. So $3000 for the whole package is potentially fair, but if it's a total mix-master and/or a repro scope, I'd pass, personally. I agree with a previous poster, however, that it would be very nice to see the rifle in person and be able to disassemble it to check numbers, etc...

A lot of people try to sell these things for way more than they're worth and it has driven the "acceptable" price way up. I've always wanted one but struggle to drop the cash people want for them.

 

[pmclaine]

The Garand was a gas trap before it was a gas port.

You think that had any bearing on where the Germans went?

 

[Ledzep]

I'm not entirely sure on the genesis of the Germans using a gas trap in the G41. From my (shakey) memory on the M1 development, I believe the gas trap time frame was like 1936-1940? It could have been some influence but I don't know. It's been several years since I read a book, and I don't even remember what book (maybe one of Law's books on the K98), but I just remember the Germans were totally against gas ports in the barrel until they saw the SVT's in action on the eastern front along with the failure of the G41. The G43 is pretty much a G41(W) with a SVT 40 style piston.

A few good videos that show the operating principle on the G41(w), G41(m) and G43. You can see the birth of the H&K roller-delayed "locking" system in the G41(w) and G43.

G41(M)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehLg3n9_ruM

G41(W)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m38NQLwpQgo

G43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUjPeAgvf3U

The Russians opted for tilting bolt designs with the SVT38, SVT40, PTRS 41 (and later shrunk down to the original SKS). Then you see the Stg44 with a tilting bolt locking system, and the AK47 follows with rotating bolt locking system.

Anyway not to drift off topic but it's very interesting to see the operating designs of these rifles in the "birth" of semi-automatic battle rifles and assault rifles. Fg42 and Johnson M1941's are also good ones to look at. You notice a lot of repetition in firearm design since that time, mix-and-match of different parts of previous designs.

 

[Laseredge]

Yeah, I had a HK SL-8 and the piston was very similar the G43. I also had a HK91 and considered the roller lock to be an evolution of the G43 locking blocks.
The G43 stampings were possibly made by Rheinmetal, who had personel escape Germany and go to Spain. There they created the Cemte (sp?) which later, after moving back to Germany and forming Heckler & Koch became the G3/HK91, and then MP5, HK33/93 etc..

The stampings were the key to making cheap, mass produced (throw away) combat weapons.

 

[Dan M]

The Germans copied the Danish Bang operating system for the Gewehr 41.

 

[TheGerman]

Holy shit. You guys may have just cost me money.

I can see the stock was sanded/coated with something, but without an import mark and if the serials all match (not sure if he means on the optic as well) this is actually really nice for 3k given that even 10 years ago, 2k for a mixmaster G43 without scope was common.

 

[FatBoy]

its an interesting piece for sure.