Interesting read on the decline of religious faith in children.

[theLBC]

OK, when you quote the bible to me, as though it explains itself, when I don't believe what's in the bible, it's a circular argument. If these are the fake apostles, tell me who's genuine. Tell me how you know, for sure, they're not fake, and why do you know and those who follow the fakes, don't know. And what if Joel Osteen dies happy, old and fucking rich...?

Explain to me why the book says the fakes will get what they deserve, but when so so so many good people who live and die horribly, do so under this mysterious and indecipherable plan.

Something like this cannot be self-explanatory unless the requirement for faith is to be faithful blindly. And that, is where it ends for me. Because usual i'd be told to 'just have faith' by another human being and we're back to my first paragraph.

For me this has run it's course. It's been interesting, if unelightening with respect to my views upon entering the thread but I'm encouraged that we kept it civil the whole time.

you don't have to "believe" it, in the sense that the characters existed. the bible is a collection of lessons.
in this case, the lesson is about democrats.

when your teacher asked you how many apples johnny had left, did you ask who the fuck is johnny and where did he get the supposed apples?

 

[Supersubes]

For something you have admitted to knowing nothing about...you are awfully sure.

I wouldn’t say I know nothing about it, I just never bought it hook line and sinker as some of you believers do.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

you don't have to "believe" it, in the sense that the characters existed. the bible is a collection of lessons.
in this case, the lesson is about democrats.

when your teacher asked you how many apples johnny had left, did you ask who the fuck is johnny and where did he get the supposed apples?

Johnny never told me how to live my life...

 

[theLBC]

Johnny never told me how to live my life...

the bible isn't telling how to live your life, it is a lesson book.
like all lesson books, some people learn from it and some don't don't even understand the questions.

 

[Supersubes]

the bible isn't telling how to live your life, it is a lesson book.
like all lesson books, some people learn from it and some don't don't even understand the questions.

It certainly has a lot to say about things you must/ must not do, or else.

 

[theLBC]

It certainly has a lot to say about things you must do, or else.

lol.
i suppose. really it boils down to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.",
which to me is the same as karma or "what comes around goes around".

i think it is a mistake to get caught up in how the lessons are told (jonah and the whale?), instead of what the lesson is about (taking advantage of a second chance, even if you made a huge mistake and you think all is lost and your life is over).
i am not religious because i could not accept the dogma, but that doesn't mean i cannot appreciate the lessons.

 

[chrome]

I know how the earth was created. You establish you don’t know but your wording implies because you don’t know I can’t possibly know. Or were you referring to all atheists and not all people with we?

The evidence highly suggests the earth was formed by the accretion disk of our very early solar system. You would need to support your claim that it was by the hand of a creator. My wording implies and reflects the science is unsettled on how existence "came to be". I.e, we don't know.

 

[Blutroop]

The Bible is the word of God. It’s kinda old. It’s had plenty try and prove it wrong over the years. No one successful yet. 66 books by over 44 different authors yet people have yet to find a unexplained contradiction. Many set out to disprove only to turn into a believer though.
Prove the Bible wrong. Lay claim to your spot in history. Shouldn’t be too hard, I mean didn’t the people believe the world was flat not long ago?

 

[Blutroop]

The evidence highly suggests the earth was formed by the accretion disk of our very early solar system. You would need to support your claim that it was by the hand of a creator. My wording implies and reflects the science is unsettled on how existence "came to be". I.e, we don't know.

Gotcha

 

[theLBC]

The evidence highly suggests the earth was formed by the accretion disk of our very early solar system. You would need to support your claim that it was by the hand of a creator. My wording implies and reflects the science is unsettled on how existence "came to be". I.e, we don't know.

the laws that govern our universe (as we understand them) came from somewhere, why not "god"?
bacteria certainly existed at the time the bible was written, and yet there is no reference to them. do you know why?

 

[chrome]

does it make a difference?

Yes, I think it makes a difference, especially when people make these type of truth claims and subsequently try to use them as a basis to organize innumerable parts of society, governments, and so on.

i am not religious, and yet i am certain that "god" exists in people of faith, and motivates them to act in certain ways.

Of course, I wouldn't begin to try to deny someone's feelings that a deity exists. However, once they try to use that as a basis of truth in the world, I'll ask for more than just their n=1 experience/feelings.

you can make as many arguments as you think you need to, but i don't see how you can deny that "god" has an effect on people and has a tangible presence in our world, which in my opinion makes god as real as anything.

Did I deny that the idea of god doesn't effect on people? I dont think so, lmk what I said that connects that.

I'd redirect your closing sentence and say the "idea of a god" has absolutely had a tangible presence in our world, 200%. It has put our species on a path that we wouldn't have otherwise been on.

god is love.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[chrome]

the laws that govern our universe (as we understand them) came from somewhere, why not "god"?

Totally open to that, 200%. But to say that with any certainty puts the burden of proof on those who believe that, to demonstrate it is true. Then it would take additional evidence to support which god we are talking about. There have been 10k+ gods documented throughout human history.

Until then, we really don't know on either claim.

 

[Aussiedan]

Kids are turning away from religion because it has been replaced by social media as a means of mass mind control.

Kids parents turned away from religion in years gone by because they saw the blatant hypocrisy in each and every religion.

The protection of paedophile priests, asking or expecting the poor to donate to the church when they as an organisation have billions stockpiled, the violence (**thou shall not kill** cough) among many many other issues.

The thing that made me start to walk away from religion as a teenager was the question- what kind of a god allows children who have never sinned to be born with health defects, cancer, etc, yet allows paedophiles, rapists and murderers to live long lives.

No amount of scripture or verbal gymnastics is ever going to explain that to me.

Im a spiritual person, I believe in energy and information, I believe in being a decent person, not because ill be punished but for decencies sake.

 

[theLBC]

Not sure what you mean here.

do you believe love exists?
honesty?
wisdom?
virtue?
fairness?

i believe god is the personification of these qualities, and the desire to possess them.

as i said before, i believe god exists in people with real faith. his existence is tangible, and i can see it in their actions.
i have not been given the gift of faith, but i have felt loved and given my love, but i cannot show it to you.

 

[chrome]

do you believe love exists?
honesty?
wisdom?
virtue?
fairness?

i believe god is the personification of these qualities, and the desire to possess them.

as i said before, i believe god exists in people with real faith. his existence is tangible, and i can see it in their actions.
i have not been given the gift of faith, but i have felt loved and give my love, but i cannot show it to you.

I can appreciate your approach above, and how you personally see what a god may be to you and others.

Ultimately though, as you mentioned above, I am not necessarily concerned what people believe "exists inside of them", I am more interested in what they can demonstrate regarding claims to truth.

 

[BullGear]

Often and regularly I remember this from bible school, bible study, and from the bible itself.

But obviously, as someone who sees the bible as non-divine nor inspired by a deity, I reject the claims it makes until further evidence is presented.

So without using the bible, where does that leave us?



Why retract from an honest question? I am trying to understand your position.

No retraction. It's just your inability to see the irony.

 

[chrome]

No retraction. It's just your inability to see the irony.

Help me then, whats ironic?

 

[theLBC]

I can appreciate your approach above, and how you personally see what a god may be to you and others.

Ultimately though, as you mentioned above, I am not necessarily concerned what people believe "exists inside of them", I am more interested in what they can demonstrate regarding claims to truth.

because you seem to focus on the dogma.
because i grew up with jc, i give him credit for what my family believes and the moral foundation i was taught (in the catholic church).
but that is just my story, and and i am not inclined to assume i was taught the truth and ari, abdul, sanjay or toshiro were all told lies.
to me it is all the same and all true. if they believe it, so be it. that is their truth and therefore my reality.

 

[chrome]

because you seem to focus on the dogma.
because i grew up with jc, i give him credit for what my family believes and the moral foundation i was taught (in the catholic church).
but that is just my story, and and i am not inclined to assume i was taught the truth and abdul, sanjay or toshiro were all told lies.
to me it is all the same and all true. if they believe it, so be it. that is their truth and therefore my reality.

Dogma? I wouldn't label the notion that we, as a society, are better off knowing what is ultimately true vs false, as dogma.

I often hear a similar phrase, "thats my personal truth". Mostly with vegans however. But it is a mislabel, because things are either true or they are not. The truth normally being defined as what can be demonstrated in our shared reality. So "their truth" comes across to me as "their feelings". And we then revert back to my earlier quote about I don't necessarily concern what people feel, compared to what they can demonstrate.

 

[Blutroop]

Dogma? I wouldn't label the notion that we, as a society, are better off knowing what is ultimately true vs false, as dogma.

I often hear a similar phrase, "thats my personal truth". Mostly with vegans however. But it is a mislabel, because things are either true or they are not. The truth normally being defined as what can be demonstrated in our shared reality. So "their truth" comes across to me as "their feelings". And we then revert back to my earlier quote about I don't necessarily concern what people feel, compared to what they can demonstrate.

I claim God is there. For sake of argument let’s say you claim 100% no god. One of us is wrong. The problem isn’t until after this life that we find out for sure. If I’m wrong and your right then nothing changes we just cease to exist or whatever it is a world with no god would look like.

What if I’m right?

 

[BullGear]

Help me then, whats ironic?

Why do you always want others to make your argument for you? Why, who, what, is that your basis for most of your discussions in life?

You seem to have all the answers except those that are relevant to the discussion. Did you ever think that your opinion is just that, an opinion?

So you don't believe in a Christian God. So what? When were you ever the final analysis?

 

[theLBC]

Dogma? I wouldn't label the notion that we, as a society, are better off knowing what is ultimately true vs false, as dogma.

I often hear a similar phrase, "thats my personal truth". Mostly with vegans however. But it is a mislabel, because things are either true or they are not. The truth normally being defined as what can be demonstrated in our shared reality. So "their truth" comes across to me as "their feelings". And we then revert back to my earlier quote about I don't necessarily concern what people feel, compared to what they can demonstrate.

i am referring to christian dogma (or jewish, or muslim...), and no it doesn't matter which if any is true.
what is important to me is whether the ideals or rules propagated behind that dogma is a positive or negative thing.
my personal opinion is that the existence of christian doctrine is ultimately a good thing and i encourage it, even though i am not religious.

 

[Supersubes]

I claim God is there. For sake of argument let’s say you claim 100% no god. One of us is wrong. The problem isn’t until after this life that we find out for sure. If I’m wrong and your right then nothing changes we just cease to exist or whatever it is a world with no god would look like.

What if I’m right?

So if I fake it for long enough, for the rest of my days, I’m good then? God will accept that? That’s all I’m capable of since I don’t have faith in your god.

 

[chrome]

Why do you always want others to make your argument for you?

Me asking for help to clarify YOUR position isn't asking for anything more than that. As i've stated earlier, I try to understand people's positions on the topic by asking questions. If that makes you uncomfortable or feel like you are doing more work, than that's on you.

Why, who, what, is that your basis for most of your discussions in life?

Good question, I'd have to think about it. Depends on the topic.

You seem to have all the answers except those that are relevant to the discussion.

I'll invite you to reread what I've posted so far in this thread. You'll find a balance of clarifying questions, and requests for evidence more than "answers". The relevance of this discussion has far drifted from the OP's original post, I think we can agree on that.

Did you ever think that your opinion is just that, an opinion?

All the time actually. I do like to work with evidence though.

So you don't believe in a Christian God. So what?

Im comfortable talking about what I believe and dont believe with others of the opposite opinion. I actually enjoy it, helps me learn more. I can't say the same about yourself, unless I am misreading the tone of your post.

When were you ever the final analysis?

When did I ever suggest or infer that?

 

[Blutroop]

So if I fake it for long enough, for the rest of my days, I’m good then? God will accept that? That’s all I’m capable of since I don’t have faith in your god.

Makes no difference. Faking won’t get you anywhere. I don’t think people would be putting this much thought to it if they didnt have doubts about what happens in the end. It is a private club though. You have to actually knock and ask. He will meet you wherever you are but you gotta be the one to take a blind step of faith.

 

[chrome]

I claim God is there. For sake of argument let’s say you claim 100% no god. One of us is wrong. The problem isn’t until after this life that we find out for sure. If I’m wrong and your right then nothing changes we just cease to exist or whatever it is a world with no god would look like.

What if I’m right?

This is a common question, and I think it reflects the classic Pascal's wager conversation. Ultimately, if we are to worry about Pascal's wager, we would have to worry if we are both wrong about the numerous other thousands of religions and/or gods as well.

i am referring to christian dogma (or jewish, or muslim...), and no it doesn't matter which if any is true.
what is important to me is whether the ideals or rules propagated behind that dogma is a positive or negative thing.
my personal opinion is that the existence of christian doctrine is ultimately a good thing and i encourage it, even though i am not religious.

Got it, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining, I am tracking what you are saying now.

 

[Aussiedan]

Kids are turning away from religion because it has been replaced by social media as a means of mass mind control.

Kids parents turned away from religion in years gone by because they saw the blatant hypocrisy in each and every religion.

The protection of paedophile priests, asking or expecting the poor to donate to the church when they as an organisation have billions stockpiled, the violence (**thou shall not kill** cough) among many many other issues.

The thing that made me start to walk away from religion as a teenager was the question- what kind of a god allows children who have never sinned to be born with health defects, cancer, etc, yet allows paedophiles, rapists and murderers to live long lives.

No amount of scripture or verbal gymnastics is ever going to explain that to me.

 

[Supersubes]

Makes no difference. Faking won’t get you anywhere. I don’t think people would be putting this much thought to it if they didnt have doubts about what happens in the end. It is a private club though. You have to actually knock and ask. He will meet you wherever you are but you gotta be the one to take a blind step of faith.

At its core, your argument above motivates a false belief. It was criticized at the time it was made by Pascal, by people on both sides.

 

[chrome]

At its core, your argument above motivates a false belief. It was criticized at the time it was made by Pascal, by people on both sides.

Agreed.

And I think "putting this much thought to it" can also be reflective of the tragedy of certain religious beliefs still manifesting in devastating behavior through out the world, causing loss of life, property, and freedom.

 

[Blutroop]

At its core, your argument above motivates a false belief. It was criticized at the time it was made by Pascal, by people on both sides.

Pascal? Yall keep throwing this name around like I shoulda heard of him or something yet a book that’s been around a while and has yet to be disproven even though written by over 44 guys is put on the same level as asobs fables in your mind

 

[chrome]

Pascal? Yall keep throwing this name around like I shoulda heard of him or something

He was a 17th century christian theologian, philosopher and mathematical genius. I remember reading about him in bible school and also in math.

yet a book that’s been around a while and has yet to be disproven even though written by over 44 guys is put on the same level as asobs fables in your mind

Big claim.

 

[Blutroop]

He was a 17th century christian theologian, philosopher and mathematical genius. I remember reading about him in bible school and also in math.

Sounds like the sort of thing they teach in academia and now I see.

What if you one day suddenly come to the realization that you were just another statistic to the same type of brainwashing that in stronger doses causes things like antifa?


Big claim.

 

[chrome]

Sounds like the sort of thing they teach in academia and now I see.

Is that bad? That I learned about pascal in bible and math class?

What if you one day suddenly come to the realization that you were just another statistic to the same type of brainwashing that in stronger doses causes things like antifa?

I think this question is appropriate, but only if the parties being asked are reversed. Looking at claims through a lens of empiricism and skepticism is on the other end of the spectrum from "brain washing" IMHO.

Scaling one's beliefs with the available evidence probably doesn't warrant a member's pass to any local cult group.

 

[theLBC]

Agreed.

And I think "putting this much thought to it" can also be reflective of the tragedy of certain religious beliefs still manifesting in devastating behavior through out the world, causing loss of life, property, and freedom.

a lot of people mistakenly (imho) blame religion for wars.
the crusades were not about religion, it was about wealth and control.
i suppose sunni/shia conflicts are mostly based upon religious differences, but it is still about control, since they both worship the same mo.

 

[Blutroop]

Is that bad? That I learned about pascal in bible and math class?



I think this question is appropriate, but only if the parties being asked are reversed. Looking at claims through a lens of empiricism and skepticism is on the other end of the spectrum from "brain washing" IMHO.

Scaling one's beliefs with the available evidence probably doesn't warrant a member's pass to any local cult group.

I think we are on the same page with the looking through a empire lens but I feel my pain relief is kicking in and could not see were cult came up?

 

[Supersubes]

Pascal? Yall keep throwing this name around like I shoulda heard of him or something yet a book that’s been around a while and has yet to be disproven even though written by over 44 guys is put on the same level as asobs fables in your mind

That’s tongue in cheek, right? You literally paraphrased him. He was a groundbreaking mathematician in probability theory, and a theist. Maybe you heard his wager in church? It’s used (overused)so much, it’s foundation doesn’t really matter I guess. For people who don’t believe in hell, it’s just silly. For those who do though, it’s easy for them to grab on to.

 

[chrome]

I think we are on the same page with the looking through a empire lens but I feel my pain relief is kicking in and could not see were cult came up?

Sorry, I was responding to your comments regarding me falling into a ANTIFA like group, which I consider I cult like organization given their behavior and overall belief systems (anti-racism, oppression olympics, race theory, etc being their new religion)

 

[Blutroop]

Sorry, I consider ANTIFA a cult like organization given their behavior and overall belief systems.

Oh I see so your saying I cut you it’s only fair you cut me back? Ok fair nuff.
Yea what comes to mind is that one Roman emperor who after convincing himself Christians were actually canibals and vampires started crucifying them and even would light them on fire to serve as human torches for his garden?

 

[chrome]

Oh I see so your saying I cut you it’s only fair you cut me back? Ok fair nuff.

Nah, you didn't cut, takes more than a post on SH to cut. I was just responding back to your point saying how I may end up a statistic of brain-washing like ANTIFA.

Yea what comes to mind is that one Roman emperor who after convincing himself Christians were actually cannibals and vampires started crucifying them and even would light them on fire to serve as human torches for his garden?

Think this references Emperor Nero? If so, yeah, his character was portrayed as a bit of a cunt to say the least.

 

[Supersubes]

Oh I see so your saying I cut you it’s only fair you cut me back? Ok fair nuff.
Yea what comes to mind is that one Roman emperor who after convincing himself Christians were actually canibals and vampires started crucifying them and even would light them on fire to serve as human torches for his garden?

I didn’t read it like that at all.

 

[Aussiedan]

This sums it up perfectly

 

[Blutroop]

Yup I’m done for the night my chance at being logical is dropping to comical swiftly.

 

[theLBC]

This sums it up perfectly

like it or not, most of our basic rules of behavior are based on judeo-christian values and the 10 commandments, and you are the beneficiary.
if there was no moses or jesus, there would be something else.

 

[Protondecay123]

like it or not, most of our basic rules of behavior are based on judeo-christian values and the 10 commandments, and you are the beneficiary.
if there was no moses or jesus, there would be something else.

Actually I think the exact opposite is true. Judeo-Christian values and the 10 commandments are based on basic rules of human decency.

 

[theLBC]

Actually I think the exact opposite is true. Judeo-Christian values and the 10 commandments are based on basic rules of human decency.

what surviving culture was formed without or in the absense of religion and exists without it today.
certainly if a godless culture was better there would be many successful examples. list them.

 

[Aussiedan]

what surviving culture was formed without or in the absense of religion and exists without it today.
certainly if a godless culture was better there would be many successful examples. list them.

In that same vein, is it also not possible to say that religious extremism/godly culture is also every bit as destructive as non belief?

Im sure most of the middle east would agree if they could stop killing each other long enough to ponder that possibility.

Not deliberately trying to be a dick, just spinning the same question back on itself which kinda nullifies it both ways

 

[theLBC]

In that same vein, is it also not possible to say that religious extremism/godly culture is also every bit as destructive as non belief?

Im sure most of the middle east would agree if they could stop killing each other long enough to ponder that possibility.

Not deliberately trying to be a dick, just spinning the same question back on itself.

again, you assume a culture or society can survive without religious foundation, and i am suggesting this would be evident if true.

religion merely sets boundaries of behavior by suggesting that even if you get away with something in this life, you will pay in the afterlife.
while we have police and forensics and all that bullshit now, it would have been much different back in the dawn of religions, where people were more free to rob and pillage without fear of detection or apprehension.

while many would like to believe that left in a world without repercussions, most humans would be the same as they are now, you only need read about the Stanford prison experiment to understand how primitive we are, and how easily we lose our civility in the absence of normal controls. https://www.prisonexp.org/

as for sunni vs shia, i would argue that this is more of a political dispute, as the divide was over who would succeed as caliph over Islam almost 1400 years ago, and not about who worships what god.

 

[ManUtdManiac]

again, you assume a culture or society can survive without religious foundation, and i am suggesting this would be evident if true.

religion merely sets boundaries of behavior by suggesting that even if you get away with something in this life, you will pay in the afterlife.
while we have police and forensics and all that bullshit now, it would have been much different back in the dawn of religions, where people were more free to rob and pillage without fear of detection or apprehension.

while many would like to believe that left in a world without repercussions, most humans would be the same as they are now, you only need read about the Stanford prison experiment to understand how primitive we are, and how easily we lose our civility in the absence of normal controls. https://www.prisonexp.org/

as for sunni vs shia, i would argue that this is more of a political dispute, as the divide was over who would succeed as caliph over Islam almost 1400 years ago, and not about who worships what god.

The Jews don't have an afterlife. Again, your premise for religion is punitive. Law and order serves the same function.

To conclude that before religion, and especially Judeo-Christian, there was chaos shows an ignorance of anthropology. To suggest that religion brings order and civility or without it, chaos, shows a similar ignorance. Man and indeed many species of animals, were able to form groups, self-govern and thrive prior to any stone tablets being handed down from the mountains. You suggest that a culture absent of religion does not exist and so therefore religion is true. Murder, rape, torture also are ubitquitous, are they therefore divine acts and should be exalted? Common traits amongst a species shows common methods of survival and culture, not the existence of deity and a divine 'word' to be followed. That's a leap of logic that goes outside of any logical framework.

It's a control mechanism, simply that. Before it, there were other mechanisms. We as a species are want to create binding ties within our groups for identity, cohesion, survival enhancement and so on. Look at the groups here in this digital forum. Many members are mentally unable to separate the act of being a gun owner from being right-wing minded. A left-wing gun owner would not be welcomed here and not just unwelcomed but systematically attacked. This is common behavior in chimps and monkey who form groups, create cultures of behaviours and reject, violently, chimps from other groups in order to protect their cultures (ways of eating, using basic tools such as twigs to get maggots out of wood etc). This is well observed, documented and explain pattern of behavior, equally ubitquitous as the presence of deity based belief systems.

Deity is an imaginative fabrication to assit with group level survival but it's evolved from the same group cutlure that existed before it and once we've evolved from religion, we'll have other group identifiers to rally around and affiliate with.

 

[Blutroop]

The Jews don't have an afterlife. Again, your premise for religion is punitive. Law and order serves the same function.

To conclude that before religion, and especially Judeo-Christian, there was chaos shows an ignorance of anthropology. To suggest that religion brings order and civility or without it, chaos, shows a similar ignorance. Man and indeed many species of animals, were able to form groups, self-govern and thrive prior to any stone tablets being handed down from the mountains. You suggest that a culture absent of religion does not exist and so therefore religion is true. Murder, rape, torture also are ubitquitous, are they therefore divine acts and should be exalted? Common traits amongst a species shows common methods of survival and culture, not the existence of deity and a divine 'word' to be followed. That's a leap of logic that goes outside of any logical framework.

It's a control mechanism, simply that. Before it, there were other mechanisms. We as a species are want to create binding ties within our groups for identity, cohesion, survival enhancement and so on. Look at the groups here in this digital forum. Many members are mentally unable to separate the act of being a gun owner from being right-wing minded. A left-wing gun owner would not be welcomed here and not just unwelcomed but systematically attacked. This is common behavior in chimps and monkey who form groups, create cultures of behaviours and reject, violently, chimps from other groups in order to protect their cultures (ways of eating, using basic tools such as twigs to get maggots out of wood etc). This is well observed, documented and explain pattern of behavior, equally ubitquitous as the presence of deity based belief systems.

Deity is an imaginative fabrication to assit with group level survival but it's evolved from the same group cutlure that existed before it and once we've evolved from religion, we'll have other group identifiers to rally around and affiliate with.

Left wing gun owner.... so you don’t believe in God but you believe in unicorns.

 

[theLBC]

The Jews don't have an afterlife.

Man and indeed many species of animals, were able to form groups, self-govern and thrive prior to any stone tablets being handed down from the mountains.

that is not entirely true based on my studies, but i agree it is evident they don't believe in hell.

before moses, there was something else, and something else before that.