Intermediate ranges or stretching the legs of a scout rifle

[cliffy110]

After lurking, learning, reading and posting (and occasionally having my ass handed to me because I said something ignorant or unintentionally arrogant), I have come to a realization. True long range shooting is not for me. I will never be a 1000 yard rifleman. It isn't because I am incapable of learning how. I've learned enough here to know that with the right training and equipment, I could do this and it wouldn't be terribly difficult. I really enjoy Frank's podcast and have learned a lot just from that. Mostly, I learned that I have A LOT to learn. I'd love to take a class from him but if I'm honest with myself, I would never use the skills he teaches.

My thing has always been the scout rifle concept. For the past 30 years, I have been dabbling in Cooper's concept of the general purpose rifle. I've taken several classes for this and become reasonably proficient with a 7 pound rifle from bad breath distance out to 300 yards. But for the past couple of years, I've wanted to stretch the limits with this platform. I entertained the idea of taking a long range class with the Scout rifle and even thought about trying one of the NRL Hunter matches with one. Then reality sunk in and I have come to the conclusion that this would be a complete waste of time and money. The Scout rifle platform just can't work at truly long ranges without changing so many things that it gives up the handiness that makes the rifle so appealing to me in the first place. Yes, I could put an Atlas bipod and a 20X mil/mil scope on it and it would be capable of 1000 yard shots under the right circumstances. I could learn everything about how to use a mil reticle and use weaponized math and all the rest. But it wouldn't be what I really need and that is a general purpose rifle.

So now I'm concentrating on figuring out exactly what I can do with a scout. I recently gained access to a property where the landowner allowed me to cut a small stand of trees to make a longer range. So far, I can get out to 360 yards. Over the winter, I think I can work on it a bit and get out to 470 yards.

I got to shoot it at 360 yards for the first time yesterday. The results were very encouraging. I have two Steyr Scout rifles and one did considerably better than the other but both show promise. The best was with my heavily modified Steyr. This rifle has the barrel shortened to 16" and threaded. I added a Rugged Micro 30 suppressor, removed the folding bipod and dropped about half a pound from the stock. The scope is a Leupold VX-R Scout 1.5-5X with a Kenton Turret. Total weight including sling and suppressor is just over 8 pounds. Shooting Hornady ELDX 178 grain ammo, I was able to consistently get 2" groups. With M80 ball ammo, that opened up to about 5" which is still less than 2 MOA. I was ringing steel (10" and 12" plates) with boring regularity even when I moved off the sandbag and was just shooting slung prone off my elbows. At 360 yards, the Hornady ammo needed 6.5 MOA and the M80 ball was 6 MOA from a 100 yard zero.

So it is a good start. That particular scope is VERY clear and crisp and I didn't have trouble seeing the target or the steel at that range. I'm looking forward to moving out another 100+ yards and see what happens. I wish I could find a 600 yard range around here as I think that is probably the limit for this package. I also wish there was training for this kind of intermediate range. It doesn't have the bragging rights of a 1000 yard shot but it can be done with a common hunting rifle without adding a lot of weight and complexity. If anybody has a suggestion on that kind of training, I'd love to hear it. I'd also take suggestions on how to adapt what is taught at the true long range classes for this kind of shorter range shooting. For instance, I discovered that while wind isn't as big a deal at 360 yards as it is at 800, it isn't a non-factor either and I'd love any pointers on that.

 

[OREGUN]

um…that’s a lot of words describing what you can’t do….despite not knowing what you can do….not to be too blunt.

A class with Frank would be super beneficial at making sure your fundamentals are tight which will allow you to overcome your perceived handicaps and you will work out methodically to the limits of the range…and he will stop you when your gun no longer meets the requirements of the distance. In the mean time, you’ll learn some strategies for your system as it relates to wind and true dope. just be up front with him about what gear you want to bring and what you want to achieve. If you are getting 2” groups and “boring regularity” at nearly 400, I suspect you could easily make reliable impacts at 800 or more on 12” plates. The chambering is certainly capable.

A hunter style match sounds like a great way to test yourself. Most of the targets are going to be inside 600 yards and you’ll get to experiment with your concept in a more “real world” setting than just plunking down behind the gun on a square range.

you don’t need fancy stuff and big scopes to get hits. You need a plan and clean execution of the fundamentals…and a little faith.

 

[Snuby642]

The troll aybiss v 2.0

 

[hlee]

2” groups at 360 yards, with a 5x scope and an 8 lb total package? I’m not calling bull shit, but I’m going to need to see a 6x5 before I believe it…

 

[6.5SH]

With the pencil barrel that is going to be an all day endeavor. Are you questioning the rifle or him?

 

[hlee]

With the pencil barrel that is going to be an all day endeavor. Are you questioning the rifle or him?

Yes

 

[308pirate]

@cliffy110

Cooper's scout rifle concept is fine but his original configuration (long eye relief, non 1X scope, stripper clip slot) is obsolete now that we have detachable magazines, variables with 1X at the bottom, and reflex sights.

The idea to push such a rifle ever farther is dumb. The testing ground should be rapid engagements at short to intermediate ranges. If you really want to see how you and your rifle stack up, find two-gun (rifle and pistol) matches and compete in them with your "scout" rifle.

 

[cliffy110]

@cliffy110

Cooper's scout rifle concept is fine but his original configuration (long eye relief, non 1X scope, stripper clip slot) is obsolete now that we have detachable magazines, variables with 1X at the bottom, and reflex sights.

The idea to push such a rifle ever farther is dumb. The testing ground should be rapid engagements at short to intermediate ranges. If you really want to see how you and your rifle stack up, find two-gun (rifle and pistol) matches and compete in them with your "scout" rifle.

The idea to push beyond 300 is dumb? Hmmm... okay.

As an far as proving anything... whatever dudes. I posted a pic of a target but obviously, I could have shot that at shorter range so you'll just have to believe what you want. The point wasn't how good or bad I am at this. The point was to find out how to push the limits of a scout rifle to meet the goal of being a truly general purpose rifle. Is there training for guys that have no illusions about being a 1000 yard shooter? Is there something to help people who are realistic that 600 might be the extent of what is realistic? That was the point. Not trolling, bragging or being a jerk. Just looking for suggestions on intermediate range shooting.

OREGUN had the most helpful suggestion and I may look into that. I haven't contacted Frank but I've been on a number of training sites and none give me the impression that they could work with what my specific goals are. Most look like amazing experiences and training but I would be wasting my time to show up with a scout rifle. Maybe I'm wrong. If the training community is anything like what I've seen posted here, I'm not wrong and I'll just keep figuring it out on my own.

 

[Bro Mo]

A long range precision course wouldn't negate the effectiveness of a scout rifle but would definitely identify what works and what doesn't with it. There is no doubt it might be frustrating because it's not set up the same but setting expectations for a course would limit that.

Taylor and Frank's course focuses on the fundamentals of marksmanship rather than just seeing how far one can shoot. The course may exploit the elements of those fundamentals that a scout rifle limits but it will also certainly identify the effectiveness of it and how to apply those fundamentals the best to the scout platform.

I think it's also important to make sure you're not staying attached to a rifle platform for the wrong reasons. I used to really like the concept of the general purpose scout rifle but upon deeper consideration found an AR10 in 308win or 6.5CM with 1-6/8 optic to be philosophically superior in almost every way. Dogma will only self-induce constraints.

 

[cliffy110]

A long range precision course wouldn't negate the effectiveness of a scout rifle but would definitely identify what works and what doesn't with it. There is no doubt it might be frustrating because it's not set up the same but setting expectations for a course would limit that.

Taylor and Frank's course focuses on the fundamentals of marksmanship rather than just seeing how far one can shoot. The course may exploit the elements of those fundamentals that a scout rifle limits but it will also certainly identify the effectiveness of it and how to apply those fundamentals the best to the scout platform.

I think it's also important to make sure you're not staying attached to a rifle platform for the wrong reasons. I used to really like the concept of the general purpose scout rifle but upon deeper consideration found an AR10 in 308win or 6.5CM with 1-6/8 optic to be philosophically superior in almost every way. Dogma will only self-induce constraints.

Fair enough comment on the scout concept. You're not alone on the opinion of the AR10 in the GP rifle role. I've considered it and tried to warm up to it. I find nothing really wrong with that but just prefer the feel and handiness of the scout. I'm willing to challenge dogma but in this case, I can't escape it.

Thanks for the comments on the classes as well. It is really encouraging. I enjoy his podcasts a lot and feel like I'd enjoy the time but keep feeling like I'd be wasting money. Now I'm thinking that might not be correct.

 

[hlee]

If you are married to the scout concept, check out “GunSight Academy.” I’m pretty sure they have what you’re looking for. As to everything else, if you come in swinging your purse expect someone to swing back.

And, because no one else has definitively stated it- I’m calling BS on your accuracy claims. But, that’s ok because you don’t care anyway. Neither do I, really.

 

[st1650]

I’m not calling BS, I had very lucky cherry picked 3 shot groups. Although I do wonder because the VX-R has such a huge thick reticle, mine were a bitch to get sub moa at 100 yards with a 3/8 moa rifle just by the thickness of the reticle, I mean it would almost completely cover a 6” target a 300 yards.
Great scope for hunting though and surprisingly decent low light performance.

 

[cliffy110]

Y'all crack me up. "I call BS" is something I'd expect to hear at my kid's high school cafeteria over a debate about a video game. Since you guys seem to want more details, I'll give them.

First of all, keep in mind that this isn't 5 shot groups. It is 3 shots and that is due to the cost of ammo but I understand that this doesn't give me as much info as a 5 shot group would. Next, I was shooting two different rifles that day. Both are Steyr Scouts. One is a bone stock rifle with a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5X scope and the other is a heavily modified rifle with a 16" barrel, suppressor and a stock that I've removed the bipod and slimmed down. It has the VX-R scout scope which does NOT have the thick reticle of the fixed power scout scope. I was also shooting at high contrast targets which were easy to see. During this range session, I would shoot three through one and then three through the other and then go check targets.

The modified rifle is one that I've owned for 20 years and I have put a lot of rounds through it. I am not the kind of guy that shoots 10 rounds before hunting season and calls it good. I've taken 5 scout/practical rifle classes with it and I know very well what it is capable of within 300 yards. Never in my years of shooting it has it ever produced results like I experienced this week. In the past, it would put 2 rounds nearly touching (at 100 yards) and other would be either high or high left, opening it up to 1.5 to 2 MOA groups. Shooting with M80 ball, it would be more like 2 to 2.5 MOA.

On Wednesday, I did something different. I hypothesized that the lightweight gun was jumping off the front bag before the bullet left the barrel, causing inconsistent impacts. To try to cure this, I put my forearm through the sling loop up to my elbow and then used a rear squeeze bag at the rear. This put just a little tension on the sling. It wasn't enough to affect the steadiness of the reticle but it seems to have been enough to control the rifle from bouncing off the front rest. It appears to have worked because the groups got amazingly tight. That pic isn't an aberration for the day. It is what this rifle was doing both on paper and on steel for the whole range session.

Now... the other rifle wasn't doing the same thing and I'm not sure why. I've got some suspicions about the scope at this point or maybe it is just lumb luck. The only other target pic I took shows about a 6" group with the same ammo. I was having some wandering zero issues that I need to sort out so there are questions here.

About those scopes... in theory, they are pretty evenly matched with the Mark 4 having an advantage of a BDC reticle. In reality, the VX-R is FAR superior. The image was brighter and more crisp. Colors were a bit washed out on the Mark 4. The VX-R also has the advantage of eye relief in that the brim of my hat doesn't get smacked at every shot. I was VERY happy with the VX-R and I'm even more annoyed that Leupold discontinued this model 2 years ago.

Finally, none of this was the point! The point is that I want to find instruction and training for intermediate range shooting. It isn't a brag to show that a scout rifle has potential to reach out beyond the 300 yard limit that most people ascribe to it. I think it could make a very effective rifle out to 600 and would love to find good training somewhere within a days drive of my home in Central Virginia. I want to find out what I'm doing right and wrong. I think I'm onto something with the use of the loop sling to hold the rifle during recoil but I want to learn more about this with a professional looking over my shoulder.

So "call BS" if it makes you feel better. And I do appreciate the training suggestions presented already.

 

[308pirate]

The idea to push beyond 300 is dumb? Hmmm... okay.

As an far as proving anything... whatever dudes. I posted a pic of a target but obviously, I could have shot that at shorter range so you'll just have to believe what you want. The point wasn't how good or bad I am at this. The point was to find out how to push the limits of a scout rifle to meet the goal of being a truly general purpose rifle. Is there training for guys that have no illusions about being a 1000 yard shooter? Is there something to help people who are realistic that 600 might be the extent of what is realistic? That was the point. Not trolling, bragging or being a jerk. Just looking for suggestions on intermediate range shooting.

OREGUN had the most helpful suggestion and I may look into that. I haven't contacted Frank but I've been on a number of training sites and none give me the impression that they could work with what my specific goals are. Most look like amazing experiences and training but I would be wasting my time to show up with a scout rifle. Maybe I'm wrong. If the training community is anything like what I've seen posted here, I'm not wrong and I'll just keep figuring it out on my own.

You asked for comments and advice and get your panties in a bunch when you get some that doesn't algin with your preconceived notions.

That means you're an askhole.

 

[W54/XM-388]

This reminds me of all those folks and their "battle rifle" dogma, where apparently stuff from the 40s and 50s is the best ever and nobody better correct them or suggest that what current military frontline troops carry into "battle" might be like actually a legit "battle rifle" HA!

The world has changed significantly since the 1950s and so has civilian and military precision shooter abilities as the equipment and ammunition became much better suited to precision shooting.

 

[cliffy110]

You asked for comments and advice and get your panties in a bunch when you get some that doesn't algin with your preconceived notions.

That means you're an askhol

@cliffy110

Cooper's scout rifle concept is fine but his original configuration (long eye relief, non 1X scope, stripper clip slot) is obsolete now that we have detachable magazines, variables with 1X at the bottom, and reflex sights.

The idea to push such a rifle ever farther is dumb. The testing ground should be rapid engagements at short to intermediate ranges. If you really want to see how you and your rifle stack up, find two-gun (rifle and pistol) matches and compete in them with your "scout" rifle.

Sigh... okay. You might have noticed that the rifle in question is not in the original Cooper approved configuration. It has a variable power scope with too short an eye relief to be a true scout, a suppressor, has a barrel that is too short and is a bit too heavy with the suppressor installed. So I'm not sure why you think your comment is cogent to the discussion. Shooting a fixed power scout scope beyond 300 would in fact be dumb. I've actually argued that a true scout scope is a poor choice for anything outside of a training class with well marked and known distance targets.

I've been dabbling with the scout concept for years to make it a better general purpose platform. I have shot 2 gun matches and been satisfied at the results. My goal... as stated here is not to turn my scout into a true long range shooter but rather to be effective outside the range typically ascribed to the scout platform. Now, do you have anything constructive to add or not?

 

[cliffy110]

This reminds me of all those folks and their "battle rifle" dogma, where apparently stuff from the 40s and 50s is the best ever and nobody better correct them or suggest that what current military frontline troops carry into "battle" might be like actually a legit "battle rifle" HA!

The world has changed significantly since the 1950s and so has civilian and military precision shooter abilities as the equipment and ammunition became much better suited to precision shooting.

Ummmm... not looking for the best rifle suited to precision shooting. I thought I made that abundantly clear. That's why my first post was so wordy... I didn't want guy like you assuming I was trying to wedge the scout rifle into a role for which it is ill suited. I know it isn't a long range precision shooter. Just trying to make the most of the platform. Let me know if you have anything constructive to that end.

 

[Bro Mo]

This reminds me of all those folks and their "battle rifle" dogma, where apparently stuff from the 40s and 50s is the best ever and nobody better correct them or suggest that what current military frontline troops carry into "battle" might be like actually a legit "battle rifle" HA!

The world has changed significantly since the 1950s and so has civilian and military precision shooter abilities as the equipment and ammunition became much better suited to precision shooting.

+1
Looking through history, warfare almost always rewards the opponent that can engage from farther away. The long bow, the rifle, missiles, IEDs, etc. Anyone owning firearms for use in any type of combat role needs to consider the best odds of victory are closely correlated to the farther distance of effective engagement. If truly owning firearms for the purpose of defense, pushing distance is not only required but is more responsible.

 

[hlee]

+1
Looking through history, warfare almost always rewards the opponent that can engage from farther away.

Is this why all of the WWI rifles had the super practical rear notch sights graduates out to ~1800 yards?

 

[hlee]

@cliffy110 That’s a shit-ton of text for someone that doesn’t care what the rest of us think. Keep swinging that purse.

 

[Huskydriver]

 

[W54/XM-388]

Let me know if you have anything constructive to that end.

Sure.

You don't mention how much ammunition testing or reloading you have done for it, but there may be some left on the table for tuning the ammunition to that specific rifle since you have a short / thin barrel and probably not a fast twist if it's an older factory rifle.
You're shooting a pretty heavy bullet, have you tried going to something like the match 155gr stuff with a faster burning powder?

Also I'd suggest you consider a scope upgrade such as the Razor HD LHT series.

Perhaps softer shooting bags that your rifle can dig into a little bit more might be worth a try.

 

[st1650]

View attachment 7722143

Leupy Vxr Patrol is a decent scope. Mil/mil - lightweight and illum. Nothing wrong with it for hunting inside of 300 yards or in timber.

 

[6.5SH]

The .308 is a 1:12 twist unless are lucky enough to own one of the very few "Swiss variant" that were 1:10 twist.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The .308 is a 1:12 twist unless are lucky enough to own one of the very few "Swiss variant" that were 1:10 twist.

1:12 usually like lighter / faster projectiles.

 

[6.5SH]

I've never shot heavier than a 168 out of mine, I'd be curious as to how it did with the Palma style bullet.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Finally, none of this was the point! The point is that I want to find instruction and training for intermediate range shooting. It isn't a brag to show that a scout rifle has potential to reach out beyond the 300 yard limit that most people ascribe to it. I think it could make a very effective rifle out to 600 and would love to find good training somewhere within a days drive of my home in Central Virginia. I want to find out what I'm doing right and wrong. I think I'm onto something with the use of the loop sling to hold the rifle during recoil but I want to learn more about this with a professional looking over my shoulder.

FWIW (which means nothing - right?) If you have really been futzing with rifles for 30yrs, and you have been a fan of Frank's tutelage and thoughts, and you can make some pie plate hits at 300 - you've got the basics. The rest is on you.

If you're really a fan of (antique) SCOUT rifles, and even if your's isn't set up as such - then use it like a SCOUT rifle.

A) Stop shooting prone - seated and slung, standing off hand, rice paddy squat, post up against a tree (give yourself a par time starting when you first arrive on site at the shooting position, and a minimum score A zone, A or C zone); run the bolt and make at least 2 hits.
B) Run (not walk) from position to position - again par time + min score
C) No electronics - can you eyeball the distance / can you MIL the distance / can you feel and read the wind
D) Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire
E) MSU (make shit up)
F) Shoot in a variety of locations and environmental conditions

Wanna learn something - do something. What you're most likely to learn is that @ 1/2 shit you have doesn't work like you think it will. 1/2 the shit you have is superfluous, noisy, heavy, and has little to nothing to do with the concept of a SCOUT rifle.

Then go do it at night.

I could be wrong.

 

[6.5SH]

"MSU" LoL, I'm stealing that one.

 

[cliffy110]

Sure.

You don't mention how much ammunition testing or reloading you have done for it, but there may be some left on the table for tuning the ammunition to that specific rifle since you have a short / thin barrel and probably not a fast twist if it's an older factory rifle.
You're shooting a pretty heavy bullet, have you tried going to something like the match 155gr stuff with a faster burning powder?

Also I'd suggest you consider a scope upgrade such as the Razor HD LHT series.

Perhaps softer shooting bags that your rifle can dig into a little bit more might be worth a try.

I've tried a variety of ammo and while it seems to prefer lighter bullets, they have all exhibited weird groups... more like patterns (several nice tight groupings but a few fliers that don't seem to have any rhyme of reason but all are high or high left). The 178 ELDX is as good as I've found. It actually isn't hateful with milsurp ball but those fliers are more widely disbursed.

The barrel twist rate is a good question and I'll have to figure it out. The stock 19" I'm sure is the 1:12 but the 16" barrel might not be. When I sent it off to be shortened, it had the older pencil thin barrel on it and the guys at ZR Tactical said there was not enough metal to thread it to even a 1/2-28. They had a spare barrel laying around that came off another customer's rifle that they rebarreled to 6.5 Creed. It still didn't have the thickness for a 5/8-24 but they were able to thread for 1/2-28. I suspect it is a 1:12 but there is a possibility it is the rare 1:10.

The Razor suggestion is one I may look into. Its funny that you don't know how good (or bad) something is until you see something dramatically different. That Mark 4 scope has been moved from rifle to rifle for years and I've been happy with it but when used side by side with the VX-R, I realized just how washed out it is.

 

[Snuby642]

Reference post #3

 

[cliffy110]

FWIW (which means nothing - right?) If you have really been futzing with rifles for 30yrs, and you have been a fan of Frank's tutelage and thoughts, and you can make some pie plate hits at 300 - you've got the basics. The rest is on you.

If you're really a fan of (antique) SCOUT rifles, and even if your's isn't set up as such - then use it like a SCOUT rifle.

A) Stop shooting prone - seated and slung, standing off hand, rice paddy squat, post up against a tree (give yourself a par time starting when you first arrive on site at the shooting position, and a minimum score A zone, A or C zone); run the bolt and make at least 2 hits.
B) Run (not walk) from position to position - again par time + min score
C) No electronics - can you eyeball the distance / can you MIL the distance / can you feel and read the wind
D) Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire
E) MSU (make shit up)
F) Shoot in a variety of locations and environmental conditions

Wanna learn something - do something. What you're most likely to learn is that @ 1/2 shit you have doesn't work like you think it will. 1/2 the shit you have is superfluous, noisy, heavy, and has little to nothing to do with the concept of a SCOUT rifle.

Then go do it at night.

I could be wrong.

You are not wrong. Not at all. I've done all of that and then some. The last time I took a training class back in May, I did the Rifle Bounce drill s (offhand at 100, sitting at 200 and prone at 300). I have run the Rifle 10 drill (10 shots from 5 shooting positions, 25 yards apart and running from 300-200 yards) and will be setting up for that at my new range. I've had a hard time understanding some of the things posted on this forum because to me, kneeling means not using a rest but relying on a sling and skeletal support. I'm all in for the scout as a scout. I'm not trying to give any of that up. That's why I have been reluctant to even try some of the long range stuff because I don't want to give up the scouttyness of the platform. I'm trying to see just how far I can stretch things and I think 600 is a reasonable goal... if I can find the training or just wing it like I did this week.

 

[Huskydriver]

Leupy Vxr Patrol is a decent scope. Mil/mil - lightweight and illum. Nothing wrong with it for hunting inside of 300 yards or in timber.

Fuds are gonna fud....

 

[W54/XM-388]

I've tried a variety of ammo and while it seems to prefer lighter bullets, they have all exhibited weird groups... more like patterns (several nice tight groupings but a few fliers that don't seem to have any rhyme of reason but all are high or high left). The 178 ELDX is as good as I've found. It actually isn't hateful with milsurp ball but those fliers are more widely disbursed.

I'd suggest you hunt around and see if you can find a box of this and try it out:

Lapua 308 Winchester 155gr Scenar-L OTM Box of 50 4317076

Lapua 308 Winchester 155gr Scenar-L OTM Box of 50 4317076 For Sale

www.eurooptic.com

It's extremely consistent stuff and in the 100 to 600 range is exceptionally accurate.
It will reliably do 1000y with ease out of a 26" + barrel.

 

[TheGerman]

Im on the fence.

 

[6.5SH]

I nearly had a heart attack at the price until I saw it was for 50.

 

[Bro Mo]

scouttyness

How do you define "scouttyness"?

 

[Bro Mo]

Is this why all of the WWI rifles had the super practical rear notch sights graduates out to ~1800 yards?

To blot out the sun

 

[cliffy110]

How do you define "scouttyness"?

LOL... keeping with the theme of light and handy. Under 8 pounds (the purists will say 7.5 is the max), an optic that allows for a quick snap shot at targets under 50 yards... things like that. It is an esoteric thing and just something one has to experience to really appreciate.

 

[TheNatural21]

I also like the scout concept, but I find the strict definition to be a little dated and restrictive. The idea of a light, handy 308 with a decent mag capacity and capable of strings of fire is where my favorite rifle build came from. Mine is a little over 9lbs, 18" carbon barrel, MDT LSS-XL chassis with their lite buttstock, and wears a 2.5-15x (although I'm waiting for a more compact 2-12x to get here).

I don't see any reason you can't do 600, or further, with your rifle. Lighter rifles and shorter barrel 308 makes things more difficult, but I consider mine a fine 50-600m gun that's capable of going further if I want to. The precision rifle training many people apply to a 20lb 6.5CM with a 26" barrel still applies to a light 308, the practical limits are just a bit different. Just because it isn't the best tool for a specific job doesn't mean it won't work.

I am still a bit of a newbie at this stuff so take my perspective with a serving of salt.

 

[st1650]

Early 2000s I was a fan of the scout idea. I had a Norinco M14s, 18.5in with a Burris 2-7 scout scope and the ballistic reticle somewhat matched my hand loads with 110 vmax and I felt it was a pretty good all around setup and not too heavy. I even had a quality Ching sling for shooting offhand.
20 years later. You guys have high quality fairly accurate reliable light weight gas guns with better ammo and with good FFP 1-8 and 1-10 scopes ... I mean if you don’t live in a free country and are limited to a bolt gun - sure it’s not a bad idea but I’d much prefer the aft balance of a good LPVO than a scout scope. It’s kinda like racing with a late 60s, early 70s muscle car - sure you can do it. But my 400hp 2.0 turbo will do much better for much cheaper and will actually corner.

 

[cliffy110]

Early 2000s I was a fan of the scout idea. I had a Norinco M14s, 18.5in with a Burris 2-7 scout scope and the ballistic reticle somewhat matched my hand loads with 110 vmax and I felt it was a pretty good all around setup and not too heavy. I even had a quality Ching sling for shooting offhand.
20 years later. You guys have high quality fairly accurate reliable light weight gas guns with better ammo and with good FFP 1-8 and 1-10 scopes ... I mean if you don’t live in a free country and are limited to a bolt gun - sure it’s not a bad idea but I’d much prefer the aft balance of a good LPVO than a scout scope. It’s kinda like racing with a late 60s, early 70s muscle car - sure you can do it. But my 400hp 2.0 turbo will do much better for much cheaper and will actually corner.

You've got good points on the LPVO as a good general purpose rifle scope. I'm also curious about the scope you had on your M14 though. Burris came out with the 2-7 scout in 2015 or 16. That scope has horrible low light transmission. A lot of guys like them but I find them to be average at best. At the risk of "swinging my purse" (whatever the hell that means), I wrote up an article on scout scope alternatives: https://cliffy109.blogspot.com/2020/12/what-is-best-scope-for-scout-rifle.html

There is a lot of debate in the scout rifle community on semi-auto rifles. I'm not opposed to them. Some of the latest ones can actually "make weight" (7.5 pounds including empty mag, sling and scope). I find them to be less handy than a bolt gun and in its role, the utility of rapid follow-up shots is questionable. I'll stick with a bolt gun but I get the appeal of the gas guns.

 

[st1650]

You've got good points on the LPVO as a good general purpose rifle scope. I'm also curious about the scope you had on your M14 though. Burris came out with the 2-7 scout in 2015 or 16. That scope has horrible low light transmission. A lot of guys like them but I find them to be average at best. At the risk of "swinging my purse" (whatever the hell that means), I wrote up an article on scout scope alternatives: https://cliffy109.blogspot.com/2020/12/what-is-best-scope-for-scout-rifle.html

There is a lot of debate in the scout rifle community on semi-auto rifles. I'm not opposed to them. Some of the latest ones can actually "make weight" (7.5 pounds including empty mag, sling and scope). I find them to be less handy than a bolt gun and in its role, the utility of rapid follow-up shots is questionable. I'll stick with a bolt gun but I get the appeal of the gas guns.

It was a Burris 2x-7x ballistic plex, I believe the handgun model.
Might have been this one :

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Bought it in 2009 and I’m sure it was a few years old already. Before that I had the Leupold scout 2x (maybe) ?. As for glass quality and low light performance, I’m sure with today’s standard it’s absolute garbage but it worked for me back in the days.

 

[TheNatural21]

There is a lot of debate in the scout rifle community on semi-auto rifles. I'm not opposed to them. Some of the latest ones can actually "make weight" (7.5 pounds including empty mag, sling and scope). I find them to be less handy than a bolt gun and in its role, the utility of rapid follow-up shots is questionable. I'll stick with a bolt gun but I get the appeal of the gas guns.

I used an AR-10 style for a general purpose rifle before my lovely gov't banned them. My switch to a bolt gun was driven by that ban. Pros and cons to both. I miss the follow up shot speed with the semi in charging bear drills and such, but the bolt gun is less finicky in the extreme cold (-30C kind of thing) and I don't have to worry about how the gas system is going to run when I switch loads around.

 

[eastexsteve]

Yes, I could put an Atlas bipod and a 20X mil/mil scope on it and it would be capable of 1000 yard shots under the right circumstances..

I'm not trying to cherry-pick here, but you don't need all that to shoot 1000 yards. We do it all day here over bags and barriers using 12x to 16x scopes. Sometimes, we even use just iron sights. Maybe you just need to get out and shoot more. Maybe stop worrying about what equipment you think you need, and start pushing your current equipment (and yourself) to the limit, and see what that limit is. It's going to take more than a few trips to the range.