I haven't seen anything on this so I thought I'd start this post. I'm looking for a good IR illuminator for NV critter hunting - mainly yotes. There is a lot of good info on illuminators but my question is on the wavelength. I've used a Surefire M952 which I have been told the IR is 850nm (not verified). I have had yotes turn and look right at me when I turn this on even from 100 yds, and my compression switch is absolutely silent. They act like they know something just isn't right, just not exactly sure what to make of the situation. I have found an illuminator that use higher wavelength IR, i.e 940nm. The info on this illuminator states it does not appear to be as bright in NV devices as a comparable lumen 850nm. But what would be important to me is if the yote would see this 940nm light. Does anyone have experience with the higher wavelngth illuminators?
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Night Vision IR illuminator wavelength
- Thread starter dcoil
- Start date
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For Hearing . a coyote can definitely hear you ( anything ) easy at 100 yrd distance . Hear things you cant . been killing them for years and I killed one two nights ago and I was amazed again with a coyotes hearing on that one . ( Dark-night / no moon / cloudy ) . even me stepping threw short grass field and moving inside 200 yard and closing the distance . I got a chance to study it's body language, Head & Ear movements .
For IR . Some models IR diodes make a slight dim red glow if you look strait at them ( but it is close range Dim Glow ) . like my little ( Surefire Handheld IR M1 ) .
But I have used lots of other IR focal beam models like, peq2a/peq15/atilla Etc. . And have had focal beam hot tight right on there face & body. Watching and studying them every second I could before shooting and they never saw or knew it was there .
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OK. Several years ago when hunting @ night and using IR supplements . I was in a mindset that they somehow @ some level coyotes saw the IR Diodes & focal beams that I hit them with . I saw them looking in my direction . But Now and looking back in time. I am convinced that it is Me that is being looked at and Not My IR . They might not be able to see me but they hear me . IMHO Coyotes works/hunts on Instincts ) . ( also they just Hear, know & Feel ) something is not right . So they focus everything they got ears-nose-eyes right @ your area of operation .
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softcock has it right on in my opinion. my experiences with many forms of ir illum tell me the same things. i think we generally discount the sheer instinctual level of these critters to know, anticipate and feel danger.
Thanks for the insight. You have a lot more experience w yotes than I do. The time I got busted I was in a stand actually hunting pigs. This yote came right up to my duck hutch about 75 yds off and started gazing at dinner. Great conditions - no moon and overcast. I turned on my illuminator to get a good picture and he turned right at me, but it may not have been the IR as you suggest, maybe just a very smart animal.
I would still like any feedback on the 940nm illuminators - anyone have experience with one?
I've worked and tested in-depth with all types of illuminators and wavelengths in the design of our TNVC Torch Pro. From 805nm, stepped up every 30nm or so up to 940nm.
One thing to always keep in mind, IR LED's will always emit a faint red glow, some more than others based on the obvious nanometer freq. used but also the reflector and/or lens used along with power. The IR pills in the Surefire IR units and our TNV Torch Pro are settled deeper into the "lens" itself which also minimize the glow to a certain extent and also the lateral angle in which the visible IR can be seen, in our cases within 1deg or less. With that said the Streamlight IR which puts out a ton of IR light and spill also uses Deep-dish parabolic reflector with the IR which has a large visible signature to the sides and is very bright at times due to the IR pills not sunken into a lens type system. It's also broadcast below the 800nm freq which allows such good illumination. (See below)
The other aspect to answer your question directly is the nanometer trade-off itself. 940nm is in the upper regions of the light spectrum which severely limits the viewable distance of Gen 3 devices with an effective range of 75 yards and less (dim at that), but as noted due to the upper frequency of light, the glow is very dim. If using a Gen 2 device, a 940nm IR light will have even less effective range. Remember these are true effective ranges (which enable you to see in the shadows at night while using your NOD) not just "seeing a glow" down range for bragging rights!
Some current Russian laser illuminators out there currently claim ungodly ranges but also use a 780nm IR diode but have a hugely visible emitter due to the frequency used. It's all about a trade off, and most current designs stay in the 805nm-840nm for the best of all worlds. Most times in the hunting world, when using a mid 800nm IR device, you're smelled and heard long before a visible IR faint glow is seen.
Hope this helps a bit.
Vic
Not sure about coyotes, but some animals can see higher wavelengths. I don't how well or to what degree or if it spooks them, but I remember seeing it on a science show I think. Owls can see in UV if I recall right, can actually see the tracks of animals, polarized light and magnetic fields as well. That applies most to birds and reptiles I think. The LED illuminators do emit a small glow, not sure how well they see it, but the lasers don't.
Color blind persons can see LED IR illuminators well enough with mark1 eyeball. Animals evolved for night see it with ease. If one wants to get feet away from coyotes do it in the fog or light rain.
No mammals have the cone opsin proteins in their retinal cone cells capable of detecting visible wavelengths higher than 720nm.
The only reason anyone or anything can see the red color emissions from an LED IR 850nm device is because all LED emitters emit on a normal curve with the stated wavelength being the main peak on the normal curve, you or any other mammal are just seeing normal red visible lightwaves in the lower 650-720nm visible range.
It is not magic, it is physical-biological science.
Coyotes are more likely to smell you or hear you than they are to see you at night......
See the two normal curves of the coyotes two cone retinal opsin proteins in the graph below, they only have two cone opsins because they are dichromats, humans have three cone opsins and are therefore trichromats?
.720 microns = 720 nanometers
Also, the GEN III gallium arsenide detector in your PVS-14 is NOT going to pick up much over 900nm either....
Do to the canine family's evolutionary lack of cone opsin proteins, red and/or dark red appears as BLACK to them........that is RED = BLACK to dogs....
The only reason anyone or anything can see the red color emissions from an LED IR 850nm device is because all LED emitters emit on a normal curve with the stated wavelength being the main peak on the normal curve, you or any other mammal are just seeing normal red visible lightwaves in the lower 650-720nm visible range.
It is not magic, it is physical-biological science.
Coyotes are more likely to smell you or hear you than they are to see you at night......
See the two normal curves of the coyotes two cone retinal opsin proteins in the graph below, they only have two cone opsins because they are dichromats, humans have three cone opsins and are therefore trichromats?
.720 microns = 720 nanometers
Also, the GEN III gallium arsenide detector in your PVS-14 is NOT going to pick up much over 900nm either....
Do to the canine family's evolutionary lack of cone opsin proteins, red and/or dark red appears as BLACK to them........that is RED = BLACK to dogs....
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That is good info. But it doesn't consider the fact they have more rods than we do, and that's what enables night vision. Seeing IR and detecting it are also two different things --we don't feel it, but perhaps they do? I'm not trying it out on my dogs, but I did try and see if the cat would chase the IR laser and she won't. She'd go apeshit if she could. But, if you can see an IR illuminator, they certainly can detect it, and seeing red as black isn't necessarily bad as contrast is what enables detection. The radiation decreases at 1/d^2, so detection of .7mW may not be possible, but 200mW may feel like a stick in the eye. I can't say for sure from experience, the only coyote I killed was with an M151 Sentinel mounted M2 and that was during the day (total disintegration).
Still, I'd be inclined to think they smelled or heard you. That was how I found most humans in the field. A bit of peanut butter and a crosswind is all it takes. In fact, peanut butter and MRE heaters were specifically banned in our unit for field work. Just too easy to detect.
Still, I'd be inclined to think they smelled or heard you. That was how I found most humans in the field. A bit of peanut butter and a crosswind is all it takes. In fact, peanut butter and MRE heaters were specifically banned in our unit for field work. Just too easy to detect.
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You got a great explanation from skypup & victor for sure .
And as I said above. I used to think same but finally wised-up over several hundred hours of night hunting coyotes with NV & IR supplements . They don't see it . But are sensing me out there 1st if I see them throwing there ( head-ears-eyes ) in my direction . The human hunter is definitely the weak link with a rifle and the coyote is the actual KING walking and hunting . and Only reason I am killing them is that I just have 'refined the tricks' over time enough to fool them for a few minutes to shoot them .
Another fact that people don't realize about those mangy kings and there sense of hearing . They KICK ASS in being able to vector a origin of call from big distances away .
There ability to hear a sound is incredible in a dark night . But also there sense of hearing the distance and position of sounds origin . They can 1/2 mile away, hearing a Call you use and are throwing out . By just using there 2-ears that are positioned between there brain . They can Vector in and run into where the call is, to about a Living Room size area . They got you by the balls, They vector sound positions from great distances. They can hear a mouse scrambling in the grass yards in front of them , and hear your footsteps in the wet grass 100 yards away .
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I have worked in both veterinary and human ophthalmology and vision science for almost 40 years now, all they are able to see are contrasts. They can also hear a mouse walking at 440 yards and I cannot hear a mouse walking over my foot.....so smell and hearing are much much more powerful at night than any rods or cones in any mammals retina.
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Is that a, ( squeaking ) or ( walking ) , @ 440 Yards ?
I know they hear good, but that sounds a little far for hearing mouse stepping on the ground . Were they Really Really FAT Mice ?
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Hi Guys
I make Infra Red illuminators for night hunting. Started as a hobby has now turned into a business.
The 850nm ir led of choice is the Oslon Black with the S at the end of the product number. It is the best thing there is right now. I make three different types of illuminators now. Starting from the Uniquefire T20ir then the T20 fitted with a 66mm Crelant head that has been machined to have the original T20 5 turn threads attached to the Crelant 66mm head. This allows the fast spot and flood to be used as with the basic T20. My top illuminator is the 66mm Crelant head fitted to the Crelant 7G5cs torch. I strip out all electics and led that comes with the torch from new. I then machine the had on the mill to accept an ledsupply dimmer that dims from 100% down to zero. I fit an external dimmer switch to the small head of the illuminator. I have used this illuminator with a home made scope ad on using a watec camera that allows me to see a block of trees 800m from where I am standing. All from one Oslon Black 850nm led.
The 940nm is meant to be completely covert. It may well be with a dark ir filter in front of it. It does glow red but not as intense as the 850nm which glows red. Depending on what reflector you are using in the Donor torch that Red can be magnified to look much bigger at a distance.
I have found that as a guide. If you are choosing 940nm over 850nm you can almost half the performance of the 940nm 's throw over the 850nm.
There is a lot of talk that people using Gen 3 will burn the tubes using these illuminators. Not true. I have sold illuminators to people using Gen 3 scopes.
I am selling the illuminators all over the world. I have had a lot of interest from the USA.
My business is relatively new. I do not have a Web page. Do not have the time to upkeep it. I have a Facebook page Ir.light.builds check it out. If I can help any of you guys with builds of your own. Do not be afraid to ask.
Cheers from Scotland
I make Infra Red illuminators for night hunting. Started as a hobby has now turned into a business.
The 850nm ir led of choice is the Oslon Black with the S at the end of the product number. It is the best thing there is right now. I make three different types of illuminators now. Starting from the Uniquefire T20ir then the T20 fitted with a 66mm Crelant head that has been machined to have the original T20 5 turn threads attached to the Crelant 66mm head. This allows the fast spot and flood to be used as with the basic T20. My top illuminator is the 66mm Crelant head fitted to the Crelant 7G5cs torch. I strip out all electics and led that comes with the torch from new. I then machine the had on the mill to accept an ledsupply dimmer that dims from 100% down to zero. I fit an external dimmer switch to the small head of the illuminator. I have used this illuminator with a home made scope ad on using a watec camera that allows me to see a block of trees 800m from where I am standing. All from one Oslon Black 850nm led.
The 940nm is meant to be completely covert. It may well be with a dark ir filter in front of it. It does glow red but not as intense as the 850nm which glows red. Depending on what reflector you are using in the Donor torch that Red can be magnified to look much bigger at a distance.
I have found that as a guide. If you are choosing 940nm over 850nm you can almost half the performance of the 940nm 's throw over the 850nm.
There is a lot of talk that people using Gen 3 will burn the tubes using these illuminators. Not true. I have sold illuminators to people using Gen 3 scopes.
I am selling the illuminators all over the world. I have had a lot of interest from the USA.
My business is relatively new. I do not have a Web page. Do not have the time to upkeep it. I have a Facebook page Ir.light.builds check it out. If I can help any of you guys with builds of your own. Do not be afraid to ask.
Cheers from Scotland
I just googled the Dbal A2. It is a laser. I have no experience with lasers.
I have never seen a laser in action. I believe that the area of illumination is very small. The illuminators I make cover a much larger area. Sorry I can not help you with an answer to your question.
Cheers
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Here is your answer
Wavelength: Visible pointer-635nm. IR pointer & IR illuminator 835nm.
Google always gives the answers, just need to look for them.
Cheers
Wavelength: Visible pointer-635nm. IR pointer & IR illuminator 835nm.
Google always gives the answers, just need to look for them.
Cheers
Wow. $1500. You guys are in for treat when you see the Oslon black led in action. It has a square of illumination, not a circle. Using my spotter with the ir illumination switched off and the camera and 7"screen turned on. I can test my illuminators for how far they can throw. I have put that square of illumination onto a hill that is 2000m from where I am set up for testing. I can put it on the top of the hill where the hill finishes and the sky starts. I know I am hitting that far out when the square of the illumination is raised to the top of the hill. I go from a full square till I hit the Sky, then only the portion of the top of the hill has part of the square of the illumination on it. The sky there is no illuminated part of the square showing.
My most basic illuminator for $75 plus shipping using a Gen 3 Envis, it can I am told by a customer see out to just under a mile, looking at a building.
I also sell the illuminators fitted with a Cree XPE visible REd led. Using the T66 I sell which is a 66mm aspherical lens fitted to the $75 T20ir. I can identify cows at 5-600m. Visible Red illumination.
Cheers
My most basic illuminator for $75 plus shipping using a Gen 3 Envis, it can I am told by a customer see out to just under a mile, looking at a building.
I also sell the illuminators fitted with a Cree XPE visible REd led. Using the T66 I sell which is a 66mm aspherical lens fitted to the $75 T20ir. I can identify cows at 5-600m. Visible Red illumination.
Cheers
Hi, new to this forum and new to night vision devices. I bought a Pulsar n550 digisight. It has a flashlight attached and that works pretty well. It has accessories, flashlights at either 805nm or 940nm. The 940nm light says it is only for use with digital sights (which the n550 is). It seems from reading your previous posts, that Gen3 (which is what you are using, primarily) does not do well with the 940nm and that the advantage to using 940 over 805 is purely (from what I can tell you're saying) to limit the amount of visible light emitted from the flashlight. Why, then, would anyone ever want to purchase this 940nm light, when it appears that the light emitted by the 805nm light would be invisible at any effective distance? I guess maybe if you're shooting at people, they can see better than they can hear, but as I'm only concerned about animals, what advantage might 940nm hold for me over 805? Anyone have any experience with digital sights like the Pulsar n550? I have kind of abandoned using it for the time being (deer season v hog hunting) and because I'm not sure it's bright enough for me during normal light conditions. I bought a Trijicon Accupoint scope 5-20x and that's pretty amazing. With the quick release mount or two rifles, I suppose it's a reasonable proposal to start off with the digisight and switch when light comes up or as it goes down. We do have coyotes and hogs in the same places. Also, one might just use the digisight without a rifle as a video recorder. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. I have these things for my Barbie Dream Rifle, an HK MR762a1.
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