Night Vision IR laser with illuminator Worth It Or Not?

[LimaTangoWhisky]

Anyone know of a good IR lLaser with dual Illumination? Using a TNVPVS-14 with a helmet mount and looking for something that reaches out to around the 450m range. Or is it cheaper to go with separate items?

 

[wigwamitus]

You want to shoot (hunt) with an ir-laser out to 450 yards !!?? For me, it would be difficult to target a yote at 450yds with a helmet mounted PVS-14, but that is me. With a 3x or 5x magnifier on your 14 it would be easier and with a shooting stick maybe you could hold steady enough. But if I had to shoot yotes at night at 450yds, I would use other methods. But that is me. On to your questions.

In general It is cheaper to go with separate items. But if by "good" you mean "full power" ... there is an availability issue. So the PEQ-15 are probably the most highly available. I am seeing several on ebay for shown price of $2,200.
There are full power lasers that are not combo units, I have several military lasers that come with no illuminator built in. Those were all under $400 used off ebay. As to illuminators, the ELIR-3 offers a solution for under $400.

For me, the advantage of full power laser is not the power, I can see the worst laser I have out to 450yds easily. The full power advantage comes in with the illuminator. Most "standard" power illuminators start crappying out around 200yds and defnitely crap out by 300yds. For the full power lasers, the advantage I see is in the beam divergence. MUCH lower beam divergence, so I think that is what you are paying for on the laser side.

Also, with many of the combo units, you are paying for a name brand, at least so it seems from the prices.

==
If I was going to shoot yotes at night out to 450yds, I would pick a really fast flat flying cartridge with a long thin bullet and a rifle to shoot it and get a RRS tripod and practice up hitting < 1 MOA with that setup. If the yotes are in the open a PVS-30 clipon in front of my day scope and some sort of thermal to spot with. And an ELIR-3 illumiator to light up their eyes and make them easy to track. A PVS-9 is another option vs the PVS-30. I would not try to shoot yotes with a laser out that far.
Just much easier to target yotes out that far using the day scope reticle and magnification, versus using pvs-14.

 

[LimaTangoWhisky]

Thanks for the advice, its cheaper to ask questions before pulling out the wallet. And i'm not scared to look stupid so says my wife.

 

[wigwamitus]

Now, I run lasers on my carbines that I use for hunting and I use them. But not beyond 150yds and rarely beyond 100yds. And I've only used illuminators with the lasers when going "ratting". The rats hide in the vegetation or in the wood or dirt piles and the illumination lights up those eyes and gives me a target. Coons and Opossum are the typical laser targets and don't need illumination with them.
But in general laser gives you a "snap shot" capability to shoot without having to flip up or out with your PVS-14, if a viable target comes in to view ... usually while "patrol" style hunting.

My current go to "patrol style" hunting setup

click on image for larger view. That is ir-patrol on the left side of the helmet for detection/id out several hundred yards. PVS-14 on right side of helmet for general navigation and seeing the ir-laser. PAS-29 on the PVS-14 for thermal overlay. Then I can see a critter in the vegetation with the pas-29 and aim with the laser, even if the 14 cannot see the critter.
And that is Mk3 60mm thermal on the carbine for long distance spotting and aiming with the carbine.
And cqbl ir-laser on the 3 o'clock for quick shots if they arise.
==

For "set up" style hunting a good tripod and a rifle length barrel and day scope and a clipon (either NV or thermal) will give you much more distance. And then rifle mountable range finders can give you a fast accurate distance.

Here is 5.56(18) rifle on tripod for the setup style:

that is xtr2 3-15x scr-mil day scope with pvs-30 clipon, elir-3 illuminator and radius range finder.

And if I bring the helmet, I'm using the patrol as the thermal spotter.

 

[LimaTangoWhisky]

Now, I run lasers on my carbines that I use for hunting and I use them. But not beyond 150yds and rarely beyond 100yds. And I've only used illuminators with the lasers when going "ratting". The rats hide in the vegetation or in the wood or dirt piles and the illumination lights up those eyes and gives me a target. Coons and Opossum are the typical laser targets and don't need illumination with them.
But in general laser gives you a "snap shot" capability to shoot without having to flip up or out with your PVS-14, if a viable target comes in to view ... usually while "patrol" style hunting.

My current go to "patrol style" hunting setup

click on image for larger view. That is ir-patrol on the left side of the helmet for detection/id out several hundred yards. PVS-14 on right side of helmet for general navigation and seeing the ir-laser. PAS-29 on the PVS-14 for thermal overlay. Then I can see a critter in the vegetation with the pas-29 and aim with the laser, even if the 14 cannot see the critter.
And that is Mk3 60mm thermal on the carbine for long distance spotting and aiming with the carbine.
And cqbl ir-laser on the 3 o'clock for quick shots if they arise.
==

For "set up" style hunting a good tripod and a rifle length barrel and day scope and a clipon (either NV or thermal) will give you much more distance. And then rifle mountable range finders can give you a fast accurate distance.

Here is 5.56(18) rifle on tripod for the setup style:

that is xtr2 3-15x scr-mil day scope with pvs-30 clipon, elir-3 illuminator and radius range finder.

And if I bring the helmet, I'm using the patrol as the thermal spotter.

PVS-14's shouldn't be rifle mounted on anything above a 5.56 right??

 

[LimaTangoWhisky]

Visible laser does little for me; I have 600V Surefires, though, so I have IR light capability.

If I had an i2 single spectrum, I'd likely get a 600u white light on the gun.

I see Steiner DBAL i2 IR Single Spectrum's going for around $600 used.

 

[wigwamitus]

PVS-14's shouldn't be rifle mounted on anything above a 5.56 right??

I'd go with "PVS-14 shouldn't be rifle mounted" ... period ...

I2 tubes are a bit fragile. In the first two years I had I2 devices, I messed up five tubes ... just over 1 tube every six months ... and recoil bumps were 4 of the 5 cases. Now in the 3 years since then, I've messed up zero tubes. I've been more careful. And I no longer mount pvs-14s on firearms.

But have done it.

That's about 4 years ago, 3x USGI magnifier screwed on the front of the 14. T-20 illuminator at 6 o'clock. Those "ring" mounts do have a bit of play in them. Behind a reflex sight it matters not as to aiming but play can support "jerks" due to recoil, so not good for the 14s. An M-69 mount (from PRI) is more solid and that's what I would use today, if I was desperate enough to do the above ^^.

 

[benzy2]

If you want illumination and a Laser for maximum distance the MAWL C1 is the king of civilian legal options. If that price is too much, the Dbal D2 has the best illuminator/laser combo (short of the MAWL) I’ve seen. It’s not cheap either, but half the cost. Or, you can go something separate and buy just the laser on it’s own with an OTAL-C and add an illuminator later if needed/wanted. 450 yards with a laser is a lot further than I’d want to shoot with a laser at anything other than a static shooting range.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

If you want to spend a chunk of change and have your laser and illuminator all in one get the I2 or d2 or something along those lines. If you want a cheaper route that will work better than those, get a laser max ir for about $160 and a Luna laser illuminator for about $375. They will be in separate housings but it’s cheap and works really well. Or just get a legit Peq-15 and be done with it.

Jay

 

[TNVC_Augee]

At 450m, you will most likely be more limited by your ability to positively ID your target through the PVS-14 than by the performance of the illuminator or by the reach of the aiming laser. While an extremely versatile piece of equipment, the PVS-14 is not really designed for long range observation (yes, I know this is “Sniper’s Hide” and some may take issue with my description of 450m as “long range,” but it is for the PVS-14). A 3x magnifier will help, but under most circumstances, it will still only push your PID range out to about 200m or so confidently, depending on your particular circumstances.

That being said, I would absolutely recommend an IR aiming laser unit with an onboard illuminator that gives you the ability to activate both the aiming laser and illuminator simultaneously, and that can be zeroed to your weapon just like the aiming laser. Depending on your application, you may or may want to seek out a stand-alone IR illuminator, but IMHO, this should be supplementary to the onboard illuminator in your aiming unit. That being said, for most general purpose carbines, I recommend a dedicated white light rather than a dual spectrum illuminator such as the Surefire Vampire-family.

As far as which illuminator to choose, there are effectively two types of IR illuminators that you need choose between before selecting a device—LED based illuminators, and laser based illuminators.

Military restricted power lasers more or less universally use laser-based illuminators, because they are much smaller and IMHO “cleaner,” and they have close to zero visible downrange signature. However, at least in the US, because of Class I power restrictions for IR lasers, most Class I laser based devices, while effective up to around 100m, are pretty underwhelming due to regulatory hamstringing when you start trying to push beyond that range. Also, they are not focusable in the same way that restricted power lasers are, devices like the DBAL-A3 will allow you to change the size of the illuminator’s “cone,” but will not actually focus the illuminator.

The sole exception here is the MAWL-C1+, which has already been mentioned, which uses a proprietary laser-based illuminator technology that will allow it to “hang with,” if not exceed the performance of many Class IIIb restricted power illuminators. The MAWL-C1+ is hands down the best “civilian legal” IR laser aiming module/illuminator currently available. It’s downsides are that it’s $2,500, and backordered literally everywhere, to the point that used units go for above MSRP on the second-hand market for those too impatient to wait. If you want one—you’ll want to get on a backorder list ASAP, as if you’re waiting for one to be “in stock” somewhere, you’ll need to either get extremely lucky (be in the right place at the right time to snag e.g., a cancelled order) or you’ll be waiting a while.

The other major type of illuminator available are LED based illuminators that use an LED and reflectors to generate illuminator rather than a laser—the advantage of LED based illuminators is that they are less strictly regulated, so you can purchase much more powerful (at least in terms of illumination performance) LED-based illuminators that will allow you to reach out further and give you more illumination than Class I laser based devices, often at a much lower cost. However, all of them have at least some degree of visible downrange signature, and in general are significantly larger and heavier than laser based devices, almost all stand-alone illuminator units like our Torch Pro will be LED based devices.

For a more extended range application, the DBAL-D2 is probably the best option out there for a multi-function unit combining both an IR aiming laser and adjustable LED IR illuminator that will give good long range performance.

~Augee

 

[Zemperfi1971]

Wow...anything beyond 100 yards for me is pushing it. Especially since most of the CIVI lasers out there are not powerful enough to project beyond that distance to a certain degree

 

[LimaTangoWhisky]

At 450m, you will most likely be more limited by your ability to positively ID your target through the PVS-14 than by the performance of the illuminator or by the reach of the aiming laser. While an extremely versatile piece of equipment, the PVS-14 is not really designed for long range observation (yes, I know this is “Sniper’s Hide” and some may take issue with my description of 450m as “long range,” but it is for the PVS-14). A 3x magnifier will help, but under most circumstances, it will still only push your PID range out to about 200m or so confidently, depending on your particular circumstances.

That being said, I would absolutely recommend an IR aiming laser unit with an onboard illuminator that gives you the ability to activate both the aiming laser and illuminator simultaneously, and that can be zeroed to your weapon just like the aiming laser. Depending on your application, you may or may want to seek out a stand-alone IR illuminator, but IMHO, this should be supplementary to the onboard illuminator in your aiming unit. That being said, for most general purpose carbines, I recommend a dedicated white light rather than a dual spectrum illuminator such as the Surefire Vampire-family.

As far as which illuminator to choose, there are effectively two types of IR illuminators that you need choose between before selecting a device—LED based illuminators, and laser based illuminators.

Military restricted power lasers more or less universally use laser-based illuminators, because they are much smaller and IMHO “cleaner,” and they have close to zero visible downrange signature. However, at least in the US, because of Class I power restrictions for IR lasers, most Class I laser based devices, while effective up to around 100m, are pretty underwhelming due to regulatory hamstringing when you start trying to push beyond that range. Also, they are not focusable in the same way that restricted power lasers are, devices like the DBAL-A3 will allow you to change the size of the illuminator’s “cone,” but will not actually focus the illuminator.

The sole exception here is the MAWL-C1+, which has already been mentioned, which uses a proprietary laser-based illuminator technology that will allow it to “hang with,” if not exceed the performance of many Class IIIb restricted power illuminators. The MAWL-C1+ is hands down the best “civilian legal” IR laser aiming module/illuminator currently available. It’s downsides are that it’s $2,500, and backordered literally everywhere, to the point that used units go for above MSRP on the second-hand market for those too impatient to wait. If you want one—you’ll want to get on a backorder list ASAP, as if you’re waiting for one to be “in stock” somewhere, you’ll need to either get extremely lucky (be in the right place at the right time to snag e.g., a cancelled order) or you’ll be waiting a while.

The other major type of illuminator available are LED based illuminators that use an LED and reflectors to generate illuminator rather than a laser—the advantage of LED based illuminators is that they are less strictly regulated, so you can purchase much more powerful (at least in terms of illumination performance) LED-based illuminators that will allow you to reach out further and give you more illumination than Class I laser based devices, often at a much lower cost. However, all of them have at least some degree of visible downrange signature, and in general are significantly larger and heavier than laser based devices, almost all stand-alone illuminator units like our Torch Pro will be LED based devices.

For a more extended range application, the DBAL-D2 is probably the best option out there for a multi-function unit combining both an IR aiming laser and adjustable LED IR illuminator that will give good long range performance.

~Augee

Great info, and a lot to take in for sure. But it looks like for the money right now the MAWL-C1+ is the shit. Now if I can only get financing attached to my already financed PVS-14.