I built a 6.5CM on a Bighorn Origin action. I really like the build and was wondering if I can just grab a few different barrels and bolt faces so I can change it from 6.5CM to .223 to 6.5 PRC. My question is, other than being more convenient (not needing an action wrench and barrel vise) is it ill advised to regularly swap barrels without a switch lug? If I just buy more prefit barrels and the appropriate bolt faces, can't I just swap as I want with my barrel vise and action wrench?
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Is a switch lug necessary for regular barrel swaps?
- Thread starter Mdeezyh2
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- switch barrel
barrel vise and action wrench and swap away
if you want to do it at the range then a switchlug can be nice if you don't have a trailer hitch barrel vise or flats on the muzzle end of the barrel
if you want to do it at the range then a switchlug can be nice if you don't have a trailer hitch barrel vise or flats on the muzzle end of the barrel
I'm not a fan of how the switch lug works. From a technical standpoint I think the ARC Barloc was better... that said, I've found that no matter what action you're using and no matter what the barrel changing mechanism is, you need to at least check zero before doing any serious shooting. I have a vise and wrenches now and run nothing but shouldered barrels, swapped conventionally.
You've got an action that shouldered prefits are made for. I'd get a Davidson barrel vise and an action wrench and call it a day.
You've got an action that shouldered prefits are made for. I'd get a Davidson barrel vise and an action wrench and call it a day.
I’ve ran a WTO switch lug on one of my TL3’s for about 2 years now and have had zero issues with it. Swap from completion barrel to 223 a lot and most zero has ever been off is a tenth from what it should be.
I guess I'm the odd man out...
I just twist the barrels on by hand at the range. Works well for me. I do have an action wrench and a barrel vise.
I just twist it on as tight as possible, I have a pair of work gloves with rubber grips on the palms and fingers. I just made a witness mark on each barrel and watch it. It works for shooting at the range, but if I were to do something more serious (like shoot a match or take it hunting), I'd probably torque it on to 40ish ft lbs. I don't think that the barrels will loosen on their own, or from simply being bumped. You can get the barrels on surprisingly tight with some grippy gloves. I do keep the viper vise and action wrench in car, just in case.
I planned on taking the barrels to a local machine shop and having them put flats on so I can spin it on via wrench for peace of mind, but hand tight has been working well for me, for what I do.
I just twist the barrels on by hand at the range. Works well for me. I do have an action wrench and a barrel vise.
I just twist it on as tight as possible, I have a pair of work gloves with rubber grips on the palms and fingers. I just made a witness mark on each barrel and watch it. It works for shooting at the range, but if I were to do something more serious (like shoot a match or take it hunting), I'd probably torque it on to 40ish ft lbs. I don't think that the barrels will loosen on their own, or from simply being bumped. You can get the barrels on surprisingly tight with some grippy gloves. I do keep the viper vise and action wrench in car, just in case.
I planned on taking the barrels to a local machine shop and having them put flats on so I can spin it on via wrench for peace of mind, but hand tight has been working well for me, for what I do.
If you want to swap while at the range, then have a QC system or wrench flats would be a benefit.
If you are just going to swap out barrels at home prior to the shooting session, then there's little practical difference. It only takes a couple of minutes to swap a barrel out using a vice.
If you are just going to swap out barrels at home prior to the shooting session, then there's little practical difference. It only takes a couple of minutes to swap a barrel out using a vice.
Ditto all above- but make sure you punch witness marks to confirm alignment.
With precisely machined barrel shoulder and receiver ring there will be very little "crush" with torque- hand tight and 60 lbs shouldn't amount to more than a thou or two at most of difference- but it's always good to be able to know you're "good" without needing to confirm with a gage.
With precisely machined barrel shoulder and receiver ring there will be very little "crush" with torque- hand tight and 60 lbs shouldn't amount to more than a thou or two at most of difference- but it's always good to be able to know you're "good" without needing to confirm with a gage.
Correct me if I’m wrong, and I may be… but didn’t ARC stop selling the BARLOC because of problems? They were going to redesign it to fix the problem or some such thing and never brought it back to production?
I don't know the specifics or intentions. There were reports of POI shift, but IMO/IME that was from people cutting the barrels on the short (safe) side of head space. If you used up any of the free "space" that the barloc expanded to fill by having a shallow chamber, then the it robbed from the clamping force. If your setup allowed it to be properly torqued and still have a gap in the "C" part of the barloc, you were set. If you bottomed it out, you could run into issues. I still have a couple of them floating around but ultimately found it easiest to make lugs/spaces that bring my ARC actions to TL-3 prefit compatibility and just run shouldered barrels now.
I sometimes think people over engineer things in their zeal to bring the next best thing to market. Kind of an “it’s so complicated it must work the best.” I’m a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. Principle.
I’ll admit, I’m biased and have a dog in this fight… I have a 787r and a box full of parts at WTO right now.
Originally I was just going to go with shouldered barrels because it IS an impact, but the idea of hand tightening a barrel and then turning a single screw with a torx head to change a barrel appeals to me. I did a LOT of internet sleuthing reference the switch lug and did not find any bad reviews, everyone who actually had one loved it. So I emailed With Sloan several times, talked to Clayton on the phone and made the decision to do a switch lug. In addition to the 787r receiver, I also sent a standard, magnum and lapua bolt so all three could be measured for headspace for additional barrels that could be ordered at a later time. In addition to putting a whole rifle together for me, he’s spinning 3 barrels up for it; 2 identical 7-300NM improved chambers and a regular 300NM barrel. I have another 787r action and parts I’ll probably send to him early next year for a 6.5x284Norma and maybe a 30-06 or 6Creed build.
I was looking for another 787r but they are sold out everywhere, so I spoke with Joel at terminus and purchased a Zeus LA quick change model. Sort of the same principle as the switch lug just a different design, spin it on hand tight and tighten two Allen head screws instead of one torx.
It’s also nice the rifle can stay on a bench to accomplish this instead of the possibility of having to remove the stock or use a barrel vice, both the switch lug and Zeus quick change allow this.
It really comes down to your personal preference and what you are and are not willing or comfortable doing to achieve your end goal.
One thing to think about is that the switch lug won’t work with an extended scope base on Non-integral action models, you’ll need to install a flush base or cut the one already on with a dremel or some such thing, sand and refinish.
I’ll admit, I’m biased and have a dog in this fight… I have a 787r and a box full of parts at WTO right now.
Originally I was just going to go with shouldered barrels because it IS an impact, but the idea of hand tightening a barrel and then turning a single screw with a torx head to change a barrel appeals to me. I did a LOT of internet sleuthing reference the switch lug and did not find any bad reviews, everyone who actually had one loved it. So I emailed With Sloan several times, talked to Clayton on the phone and made the decision to do a switch lug. In addition to the 787r receiver, I also sent a standard, magnum and lapua bolt so all three could be measured for headspace for additional barrels that could be ordered at a later time. In addition to putting a whole rifle together for me, he’s spinning 3 barrels up for it; 2 identical 7-300NM improved chambers and a regular 300NM barrel. I have another 787r action and parts I’ll probably send to him early next year for a 6.5x284Norma and maybe a 30-06 or 6Creed build.
I was looking for another 787r but they are sold out everywhere, so I spoke with Joel at terminus and purchased a Zeus LA quick change model. Sort of the same principle as the switch lug just a different design, spin it on hand tight and tighten two Allen head screws instead of one torx.
It’s also nice the rifle can stay on a bench to accomplish this instead of the possibility of having to remove the stock or use a barrel vice, both the switch lug and Zeus quick change allow this.
It really comes down to your personal preference and what you are and are not willing or comfortable doing to achieve your end goal.
One thing to think about is that the switch lug won’t work with an extended scope base on Non-integral action models, you’ll need to install a flush base or cut the one already on with a dremel or some such thing, sand and refinish.
Shouldered barrel, don't bother torquing it. Works fine but requires trued & faced action and precise facing of the barrel shoulder. If everything's right, it's startlingly repeatable.
@reubenski
You are the reason I spent a couple of range trips switching barrels in my TL3 without special tools (action wrench, barrel vise, torque wrench).
I agree with you on everything above... Lots of over complicated solutions in the name of commerce.
I hand tightened a barrel with gloves and had my wife try to remove the barrel with her hands, she gave up after about 10 mins. I'm not saying no one could remove the barrel by hand, but I have a hard time seeing a situation where something bumps the barrel causing the barrel to unseat. I think it would take a deliberate decision and action to twist off a barrel at 30ft lbs.
I'll pick up a strap wrench next time I'm at home Depot just to experiment with.
I would recommend that anyone with an action that takes prefits (and has an interest in swapping barrels) to spend a day or two experimenting... You might be surprised by what you find.
You are the reason I spent a couple of range trips switching barrels in my TL3 without special tools (action wrench, barrel vise, torque wrench).
I agree with you on everything above... Lots of over complicated solutions in the name of commerce.
I hand tightened a barrel with gloves and had my wife try to remove the barrel with her hands, she gave up after about 10 mins. I'm not saying no one could remove the barrel by hand, but I have a hard time seeing a situation where something bumps the barrel causing the barrel to unseat. I think it would take a deliberate decision and action to twist off a barrel at 30ft lbs.
I'll pick up a strap wrench next time I'm at home Depot just to experiment with.
I would recommend that anyone with an action that takes prefits (and has an interest in swapping barrels) to spend a day or two experimenting... You might be surprised by what you find.
Another point to keep in mind, every time you fire a RH twist barrel you're causing the barrel to try to set itself tighter yet. The bullet is being forced clockwise relative to its direction of motion but that causes an equal and opposite force to be applied to the barrel meaning that it's going clockwise in the opposite direction. Just like a pinion gear is always trying to climb a ring gear, a bullet is always trying to rotate a barrel. If you use a LH twist then you'll probably want quite a bit of torque on the barrel if it's got right hand twisting tenon threads. Another of the things I love about my Desert Tech, no tenon threads to have to mess with at all when swapping a barrel. Those are stuck inside the barrel extension. This is my setup with 5 barrels in the case, 4 in the long slots and 1 in the rifle. Takes me <1min to change barrels.
Question as I have a couple switch barrel rifles now and occasionally will be transporting more than one barrel, for reasons similar to what reubinski described above on hunts, for pdogs or coyotes.
When you transport your extra barrels, how do you protect them (and threads) without an elaborate foam set up like those posted by Reubinski and spamassassin?
I use soft cases in my Hardigg cases and dont particularly want to go the foam route.
Thinking about PVC tubes and the net wrapping vs expensive barrel sleeves I have looked at.
When you transport your extra barrels, how do you protect them (and threads) without an elaborate foam set up like those posted by Reubinski and spamassassin?
I use soft cases in my Hardigg cases and dont particularly want to go the foam route.
Thinking about PVC tubes and the net wrapping vs expensive barrel sleeves I have looked at.
impressive setup and organization of everything. I should be more motivated to do this.
Good point.
Soft case has MOLLE on inside, neglected to mention strapping tubes to that so they dont move…..
plus padding between rifle and side of case mags and barrels are stored.
May try one and see how it fits and works, and will remember to make sure it is secure and not rolling/flopping about.
May end up with foam anyways….
Seems to be the way people go for this a lot.
You only really need to protect the ends. Here’s your answer. Either will work great and only come off when you want them to come off.
Had a barrel shipped with the top ones.
Tore through and buggered the muzzle threads to where nothing would thread on.
That is what has made me think of something more protective.
Threads were easy fixed in a vice with a quality thread file, as only a small part was buggered.
Prolly wont get bounced around near as bad by me as the goobers at UPS or USPS.
True. I can tell you that the cane tips are very rugged and would have to be beaten pretty hard to fail.Had a barrel shipped with the top ones.
Tore through and buggered the muzzle threads to where nothing would thread on.
That is what has made me think of something more protective.
Threads were easy fixed in a vice with a quality thread file, as only a small part was buggered.
Prolly wont get bounced around near as bad by me as the goobers at UPS or USPS.
Oh, and to protect the barrels:
I know that none of that is task specific, just offering up the low budget options.
I guess I could calculate it ... hang on
ok, nerd mode engaged.One thing we do know, the force applied would be amazingly consistent based on M = (1.7x10^-9 x W x R^2 x n )/T where:
M= torque in lb ft
W = bullet weight in grains
R = radius of bullet diameter in inches
n = RPM of bullet
T = time bullet is in barrel in seconds
So, it'll be in the 6ftlbs territory with something like a .30cal at 2750fps, .3ftlbs for a light bullet .223 at 3000fps, ~13ftlbs with a 300gr .338LM.
If you'd like to play with this open excel and make A1 have this forumula: =(1.7*10^-9*B1*C1^2*D1)/E1, then make B1 bullet weight, C1 diameter, d1 rpm and e1 barrel time. You can copy/paste that line all you want and modify the values of B1-E1. Don't expect major differences within any particular power level.
I'm a fan. They even have pre-done templates for tons of guns and accessories and you can scale a picture in a particular way and upload it and they can make a template based on it that'll be right down to .1".
A little
though it's a past time and not a day job 11 months out of the year. The issue is not one that's debated by anyone that knows what they're talking about and we can even see it in everyday shooting life. If you get out and one-hand something like a .44mag you'll notice that the gun twists pretty aggressively to your left if it has a right hand twist and this is because it gets ~8ftlbs of torque applied to it from the action of causing the bullet to spin. You can see it in other firearms too to a greater or lesser degree based on the forces and masses at play. The only thing you need to know to know it's true is Newton's 3rd law is a law of nature. The math from there is relatively straightforward.
A term I learned from James Yeager and Pat McNamara, "institutional incest" the continued promulgation of straight up bullshit because someone beforehand insisted it was true without any proof at all. I know many professional gunmakers that insist on 100lbs of torque on barrels despite knowing factually that it's unnecessary and they do it for no other reason than someone told them about it when they were young and everyone that contradicts that lore is looked at with side eye. The very few who have the courage to call bullshit on bullshit also don't sell large numbers of rifles and the people that buy their rifles have titles like "King" or "Crown Prince".
long time lurker recently joined the sight just because I've been curious of this kind of system. this is the thread I've been waiting for awesome info from all and just what i needed. thanks
@reubenski did you lock tight the barrel nut on those prefits? or epoxy. Im curious if your running handloads and the headspace stays prefect enough not to affect accuracy?
@reubenski did you lock tight the barrel nut on those prefits? or epoxy. Im curious if your running handloads and the headspace stays prefect enough not to affect accuracy?
I don't use locktite, no problems yet. All my new barrels are the shouldered prefits from here on.
Very elegant setup, I love it.
You're right, we tend to over think things and make some of our equipment and processes over complicated. Reloading is a perfect example of that.
If you want to swap barrels with any frequency and want to avoid some of the gimmicky QC systems, this is probably a great example to follow.
Since @reubenski is no longer with us, does anyone have some of the pics he posted? I’m sure this post has lost lots of his info that wasn’t quoted too.
The thought is (not confirmed): got a mil promotion.
It has been confirmed that he was not banned and that he asked for his posts to be wiped.
It has been confirmed that he was not banned and that he asked for his posts to be wiped.
