Is it Easier to Shoot Sub MOA Further Out?

[Airik Farley]

I've noticed that it seems easier to shoot sub MOA the further out I move the target. Is that normal, why is that? I understand that 1MOA @ 100y is 1 inch and at 300y it's 3 inches, but I don't feel like that should make it 3x easier since it's 3x as far. My expectations were that the difficultly would scale linearly with distance.

I only have access to a range that goes out to 300 yards but I've noticed that I struggle to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards, I normally average about 1-1.25 MOA at 100 yards. However when I move out to 300 yards I consistently shoot well under 1 MOA. On average I tend to shoot around 0.3 - 0.5 MOA at 300. Tonight I somehow shot a 0.16 MOA 3 round group at 300y with gusting winds which absolutely blows my mind. I doubt I'll ever achieve that again.

I'm shooting with Horney ELD-M 6.5 Creedmoor FYI.

 

[OREGUN]

It should be “harder”, in that there are more variables involved (or more time for the various variables to act on your shot). You may be noticing a positive effect of having less magnification causing apparent movement of the reticle. Same reason some people seem to shoot better if they “zoom out” with their scope. Or, the shooting position might be up or down a little making the angle more comfortable or consistent which is allowing you to be more consistent shot to shot. If the gun is shooting that small at 300, it will shoot that small at 100 but you are doing something different.

 

[Macht]

One of the Litz books has a study on this. Going purely off memory here, I believe they used shoot-thru targets to print the same group at 100 and 300, while arranging it so either a 100 yard or 300 yard aim point could be used. If I recall correctly the result was basically "aim small, miss small" where the groups were tighter at both distances when using the 300 yard aim point.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I have seen that and most every time its either been a parallax issue, or its a bullet base transition to bearing body vs that rifles crown issue.
Should the transition not be perfect and the crown the same the gas gives the bullet a slight yaw, at the muzzle. Then it takes a few 100's of a second. for rotational spin to counter act that.
Different bullets or sometimes different lot numbers of same cures it or same bullets in another gun. The crown will tell you if its happening as you will see more gas markings on one side than another. However you will need high magnification to see the diff, as the naked eye will not detect it.

edit for fat fingering spelling

 

[Old Man with Gun]

No

 

[hlee]

Shoot a 5x5 at 100 and at 300, then report back…

 

[mark5pt56]

Shoot a 5x5 at 100 and at 300, then report back…

This, I've seen folks shoot a single 600 yard group tighter than a 100 yard one-funny what happened when they tried a second time.

 

[tna9001]

This is an old wives tale. Litz proved it. Groups get bigger as distance increases.

 

[Kickin45]

Has a lot to do with your distance and today’s modern ballistics.
300 yds isn’t the same 300yds it was 60yrs ago
Modern cartridges, powders, brass, projectiles and barrel advancement makes it much easier than our grandfathers had it.
The challenge begins when atmospherics start factoring in. And that increases with distance.
Try to find somewhere where you can shoot
5-600yds. Better yet, 800+ and you’ll see the elements begin to fight you. Not to mention your breathing, heartbeat, thoughts in your brain, etc etc.

 

[diggler1833]

I shoot a lot at 100, 300, 385, and 650. I've never had a trend to shoot tighter at 300 - 650 than I did at 100.

I wish I could.

As said above, shoot more groups at each distance, average, and please share what you have found out.

 

[hlee]

“Man, bragging on the hide about a lucky group is a lot harder than I thought.” OP (allegedly)

 

[Holliday]

Yes your bullet calms down after about 125 yards.

Follow me for more exciting tips.

 

[johnrice]

i have noticed the same thing, i have wonderd if it was not mental. taking more care in fundamentals because the tgt was further away. i have chalked it up to a mystery.

 

[wesson357]

3 shots is not a group. Try 10.

 

[tna9001]

Yes your bullet calms down after about 125 yards.

Follow me for more exciting tips.

Perhaps this is sarcasm but Litz put this myth to rest.

 

[Holliday]

Perhaps this is sarcasm

I see finally got that door open.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Op have you tried the suggested ideas of more groups at various distances? My first thought regarding larger groups at closer ranges would be parallax. Parallax is going to have a more pronounced effect at 100 yards than 300 yards.

 

[wesson357]

Just for fun, here's the data of one of my barrel. 20x 5 shots groups at each distances 100, 200 and 656 yards.
I think we can call it significant.
6BR
Average Ex. Spread and average mean radius. All in MOA
100y: 0.73 0.25
200y: 0.62 0.24
656y: 0.74 0.26

 

[wesson357]

Other barrel, 308 15x 5 shot groups.
100y: 0.61 0.23
200y: 0.85 0.34
656y: 0.92 0.34

 

[wesson357]

Other newer 6 BR Bartlein barrel.
100y: 0.30 0.10 (1x 5shots)
200y 0.40 0.14 (17x 5shots)
656y: 0.51 0.19 (7x 5shots)

 

[bulletbluesky]

All other things being equal, swerving motion of the rotationaly stabilized projectiles is usually the most intensive in first 100 yards or so. Once the pitching & yawing phenomena get damped out, the flight regarding centar of mass of the bullet is more closely aproximated by the point-mass trajectory model. Therefore, it's possible to observe increased MOA groups at closer range than further away. However, when decent ammo is fired from accuracy barrels the effect is pretty negligible from practical standpoint ( I'd say less than 1/2 of a caliber up to 100 yards)

 

[LuckyLuke80]

All other things being equal, swerving motion of the rotationaly stabilized projectiles is usually the most intensive in first 100 yards or so. Once the pitching & yawing phenomena get damped out, the flight regarding centar of mass of the bullet is more closely aproximated by the point-mass trajectory model. Therefore, it's possible to observe increased MOA groups at closer range than further away. However, when decent ammo is fired from accuracy barrels the effect is pretty negligible from practical standpoint ( I'd say less than 1/2 of a caliber up to 100 yards)

Impossible. A bullet doesn’t “swerve”. You could be thinking of the yawing of an arrow in flight, but that is still flying on a straight line through the arrows center axis. Even though it is flexing up and down. A bullet can’t do that. Too short and rigid. Also, laws of motion already decided that about an object in motion tends to stay in motion till acted upon by a greater force etc.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Impossible. A bullet doesn’t “swerve”.

Depending many things, high speed footage says otherwise. Everything perfect, no it won't.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Start at Post 23

High speed pictures of bullets leaving barrel

Trick shots anyone? Some more stuff online: www.kuulapaa.com What are you using to collect the shots? Strobe? 4K Camera? Red? Looks like good stuff, and even though you are link building, I'll leave it since it's good stuff.

www.texasguntalk.com

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Depending many things, high speed footage says otherwise. Everything perfect, no it won't.

The bullet still travels in a straight line other than the drop from gravity. It might wobble, but that won’t make it travel left then back right. If it leaves the barrel and starts traveling .001 degrees left then it will continue on that path unless a greater force pushes it back the other way. I think sir Isaac newton already figured this out for us. The point of the thread still being whether the op can shoot smaller groups at 300 yards vs 100 yards and as several have said-go shoot 10 round groups at different distances and see what happens.

 

[Fig]

Yes your bullet calms down after about 125 yards.

Follow me for more exciting tips.

Does it just calm down, like a kid on ritalin, or does it actually go to sleep, like rubbing whisky on a baby's gums?

 

[hlee]

There is, likely, a shooter component to this. You know…

You’re laid out prone at the 100 yard line, the end of your sniper-pro shooting mat fluttering gently in the light (4.3 mph according to the kestrel) breeze. Your position is rock steady. The new $4000 bipod is really paying off. And, the custom made rear bag allows for adjustments that are so small, and so precise, that you can’t even tell you are making them. There’s a small mountain of gleaming brass to your right. All of that ammunition was well spent. Your zero is PERFECT. The crosshairs of your scope are exactly quartering the bullseye. Now is the time. Position? Rock solid. Sight alignment? Square and true. Respiratory pause? Yep. Then, The Voice. “Send it.” Squeeze, bang, freeze. You drill the bull. Marky Mark is just a fuckin’ actor. Cycle the action. “Re-engage.” Frickin’ A, that one caught the edge of the first. “Re-engage!” Clover-leaf? This group is gonna be awesome. “Re-engage, sniper.” Hell yeah, brother. That’s four touching. One more and I’m probably the best rifleman that’s ever lived. “Re-engage!” What. The. Actual. Fuck. No, I called that one. I mean, 1.2 moa is still pretty good. It’s a flyer. Only the first 4 really count. Fucking Hornady!

But, at distances where you can’t see your impacts on paper…

Where’d that one go? Don’t know, send another. Well, now? Fuck if I know. Just shoot 3 more and we’ll check after. Damn, that’s a fine group. I know, right? I wasn’t even really trying. Just put the cross hair on the bull and squeeze.

 

[Bobb3950]

Interesting discussion here.
However, common sense will tell you that at longer distances bullets are being acted upon by outside forces, gravity, wind, spin drift at an increasingly bigger amount over distance.
Can you shoot a .5 moa groups at 300 if you shoot a .5 moa group at 100? Of course it's possible.
But if you're asking can you shoot the same 1/2" group at 300 that you shot at 100? Probably not.

 

[Fig]

That's cuz sometimes the wind helps rather than hurts.

 

[Braunie1]

Not sure about 300yds , but i was having issues with Berger 77 OTM in my AR not shooting well at 100. Barely 1 MOA at 100. There are a lot of benchrest shooters at my club and they all said to check them at 200, some bullets don't "settle in" till after 100 is what I kept hearing from them. Sure enough 3/4 to 1/2 MOA at 200YD.

 

[KYAggie]

Interesting discussion. The 270 barrel for my R93 does this and I’ve had it since 2001. If I can get loads to group 1-1.25” at 100 yards, they typically group the exact same, as in 1-1.25” at 200 yards. I never could figure out why, but I apparently I should look at the crown, perhaps it’s causing that strange phenomenon.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Here is something to try for fun.
If at 100 yards you are using the maximum magnification on your scope to try to shoot a tiny group, try instead backing your magnification down a bit and see if maybe trying to keep the crosshairs exactly on a spot all zoomed in was making you not be as still as you are at 300 yards.

 

[Braunie1]

Here is something to try for fun.
If at 100 yards you are using the maximum magnification on your scope to try to shoot a tiny group, try instead backing your magnification down a bit and see if maybe trying to keep the crosshairs exactly on a spot all zoomed in was making you not be as still as you are at 300 yards.

I have the same problem with my 77 yr old father, he constantly wants to shoot on max magnification. I tell him back it off to 16-18x and you might see better results, but it’s like taking to a wall sometimes.

 

[Marine52]

I have the same problem with my 77 yr old father, he constantly wants to shoot on max magnification. I tell him back it off to 16-18x and you might see better results, but it’s like taking to a wall sometimes.

Listen to your dad. If you are having issues with unsteady crosshairs at high magnification, dialing the scope power back will not solve the issue. It will just obscure the movement. Work on your shooting mechanics and front/rear rests.

Also, bullets don’t self-correct in flight and yield smaller MOA at greater distance. This has been repeatedly discussed and shown to be complete nonscense. Parallax is the likely cause.

 

[hlee]

Not sure about 300yds , but i was having issues with Berger 77 OTM in my AR not shooting well at 100. Barely 1 MOA at 100. There are a lot of benchrest shooters at my club and they all said to check them at 200, some bullets don't "settle in" till after 100 is what I kept hearing from them. Sure enough 3/4 to 1/2 MOA at 200YD.

Bullets don’t go to sleep. They wake the fuck up. How is a bullet going to steer itself back on course if it is asleep? The answer is that it can’t unless it is awake.

No, seriously, how does the bullet know it is off course, by how much, and to where to correct? It can’t. Once a bullet is off course, it is off course and it cannot correct itself.

Listen to your dad. If you are having issues with unsteady crosshairs at high magnification, dialing the scope power back will not solve the issue. It will just obscure the movement. Work on your shooting mechanics and front/rear rests.

Yes, but not seeing those small jerky motions in the optic can allow the shooter to be more relaxed, and to break a clean shot; instead of jerking the trigger as the reticle flies across the intended POA.

 

[Braunie1]

Listen to your dad. If you are having issues with unsteady crosshairs at high magnification, dialing the scope power back will not solve the issue. It will just obscure the movement. Work on your shooting mechanics and front/rear rests.

Also, bullets don’t self-correct in flight and yield smaller MOA at greater distance. This has been repeatedly discussed and shown to be complete nonscense. Parallax is the likely cause.

For one, He is the one not listing. I not going to listen to a guy that says "Max power is more accurate" I try to tell him to back of the mag some. Also I never said anything about self correcting but could it be stability? Not sure but, I'm sure there is a reason most benchrest shooter use flat base bullets inside 300yds . I'm just giving a small sample to a issue I had.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Interesting discussion. The 270 barrel for my R93 does this and I’ve had it since 2001. If I can get loads to group 1-1.25” at 100 yards, they typically group the exact same, as in 1-1.25” at 200 yards. I never could figure out why, but I apparently I should look at the crown, perhaps it’s causing that strange phenomenon.

Interesting observation indeed. If the effect wasn't just a statistical fluke (and you can reproduce it more often than not), you should inform ballistics experts to check more closely what's going on. Shrinkage of groups by 50% MOA couldn't reproduce on regular basis even Franklin W. Mann no matter what he tried