Is my Giraud broken?

[Sebrock]

I see that everyone is getting the Henderson, does that mean that my Griaud no longer works?

Just joking, but it seems much simpler than my Giraud (plus one size fits all). I saw the F-Class John video where he compared the two and got better results; havent tested myself so dont know. Does anyone have any experience with both - anyone else compare? Any thoughts on trimming to length via the base as opposed to the shoulder? And if your headspace is consistent does it even matter (I suppose that applies to both)?

 

[Choid]

Trim length is a pretty unimportant variable as long as you are not too long. Realistically, trim from shoulder is a better measure on a case that headspaces on the shoulder, it seems to me. But the Henderson is really nice looking.

 

[IHFarmer07]

I see that everyone is getting the Henderson, does that mean that my Griaud no longer works?

Just joking, but it seems much simpler than my Giraud (plus one size fits all). I saw the F-Class John video where he compared the two and got better results; havent tested myself so dont know. Does anyone have any experience with both - anyone else compare? Any thoughts on trimming to length via the base as opposed to the shoulder? And if your headspace is consistent does it even matter (I suppose that applies to both)?

I don’t have a Henderson but I would really like to get one one day. IMO, it’s similar to the forester trimmers which is what I have now even though I have a Frankford Arsenal power station that I don’t use much anymore.

I don’t use it for the same reason I WILL never buy a trimmer like the giraud or anything that indexes off of the shoulder……I don’t care how good of dies/setup a person has the shoulder bump will not be 100% same from case to case. The Henderson or forester is a TRUE case overall length unlike ones that indexes off the shoulder.

 

[Sebrock]

Trim length is a pretty unimportant variable as long as you are not too long. Realistically, trim from shoulder is a better measure on a case that headspaces on the shoulder, it seems to me. But the Henderson is really nice looking.

I think his findings were related to neck tension measured on the amp and then on paper. But he admitted that YMMV given that other factors or a misalignment could have caused that.

 

[Sebrock]

I don’t have a Henderson but I would really like to get one one day. IMO, it’s similar to the forester trimmers which is what I have now even though I have a Frankford Arsenal power station that I don’t use much anymore.

I don’t use it for the same reason I WILL never buy a trimmer like the giraud or anything that indexes off of the shoulder……I don’t care how good of dies/setup a person has the shoulder bump will not be 100% same from case to case. The Henderson or forester is a TRUE case overall length unlike ones that indexes off the shoulder.

My headspace is all > .001 of each other so if Im trimming to 1.89, the difference would be 1.889 or 1.891 and not enough to make a difference. Personally I would think that as long as your headspace is not crazy different, would not matter one way or another. Remember in headspacing we are in the .00xx world whereas in trimming we are in the .0x world - but again, not claiming anything or to truly know. His review of one vs the other had to do ultimately with which one gives you the better neck tension based on how smooth the chamfer/debut operation is. Again it was one imperfect test, so who knows.

 

[rustyinbend]

I see that everyone is getting the Henderson, does that mean that my Griaud no longer works?

Just joking, but it seems much simpler than my Giraud (plus one size fits all). I saw the F-Class John video where he compared the two and got better results; havent tested myself so dont know. Does anyone have any experience with both - anyone else compare? Any thoughts on trimming to length via the base as opposed to the shoulder? And if your headspace is consistent does it even matter (I suppose that applies to both)?

I keep wondering why that's not a bigger question for those indexing off the shoulder. I'd think that trimming to the right case length would do lots more good things for you related to consistency, seating depth, bullet jump, etc. It's why I'm retiring my Frankford Arsenal Platinum Case Trim and Prep Center ... and ordered the Henderson Powered Case Trimmer last week. The more I study it, the more I think trimming to a super consistent trim length is much better than inducing the case length variability that comes with trimming from a shoulder measurement , and I can't wait to lose the whole chamfer/deburr side-job. I'm voting on your question ... with about $1,000 (all in - 3 collets, 3 cutters, shavings tray, etc.).

 

[Sebrock]

I keep wondering why that's not a bigger question for those indexing off the shoulder. I'd think that trimming to the right case length would do lots more good things for you related to consistency, seating depth, bullet jump, etc. It's why I'm retiring my Frankford Arsenal Platinum Case Trim and Prep Center ... and ordered the Henderson Powered Case Trimmer last week. The more I study it, the more I think trimming to a super consistent trim length is much better than inducing the case length variability that comes with trimming from a shoulder measurement , and I can't wait to lose the whole chamfer/deburr side-job. I'm voting on your question ... with about $1,000 (all in - 3 collets, 3 cutters, shavings tray, etc.).

I agree - but does it really matter if you have the right headspace? What do you think about my response above and argument over headspace consistency? And Im not justifying one vs the other - my Giraud would go in 5 minutes if I posted it on accurate shooter so really curious here.

 

[rustyinbend]

I agree - but does it really matter if you have the right headspace? What do you think about my response above and argument over headspace consistency? And Im not justifying one vs the other - my Giraud would go in 5 minutes if I posted it on accurate shooter so really curious here.

Why choose seating depth consistency, or headspace consistency ... when you can have both? I expect headspace consistency from my FL sizing process. For trimming, I've decided case length is the most important outcome ... but that's just me. YMMV.

 

[spife7980]

I keep wondering why that's not a bigger question for those indexing off the shoulder. I'd think that trimming to the right case length would do lots more good things for you related to consistency, seating depth, bullet jump, etc. It's why I'm retiring my Frankford Arsenal Platinum Case Trim and Prep Center ... and ordered the Henderson Powered Case Trimmer last week. The more I study it, the more I think trimming to a super consistent trim length is much better than inducing the case length variability that comes with trimming from a shoulder measurement , and I can't wait to lose the whole chamfer/deburr side-job. I'm voting on your question ... with about $1,000 (all in - 3 collets, 3 cutters, shavings tray, etc.).

If you are getting inconsistent trim lengths due to an inconsistent shoulder sizing then you need to address the cause of the issue which is your shit sizing job and not the trimmer which comes after the fact.

Even an extreme difference of .010 in a neck that’s .26 long overall is only a 4% difference. It’s simply not a critical dimension. The +\- of .001 in trim length with the giraud isn’t an issue.

Also, if your shoulder isn’t consistent than the oal trimmer is actually going to vary the actual neck length itself since the base of it is what’s changing position. So throw that in there to mull.


What y’all should be questioning is why y’all want to trim your cases in something that’s going to drag in the inside of the case neck to gall and scratch like the forster trimmer pilot.

 

[rustyinbend]

If you are getting inconsistent trim lengths due to an inconsistent shoulder sizing then you need to address the cause of the issue which is your shit sizing job and not the trimmer which comes after the fact.

Even an extreme difference of .010 in a necks that’s .26 long overall is only a 4% difference. It’s simply not a critical dimension. The +\- of .001 in trim length with the giraud isn’t an issue.


What y’all should be questioning is why y’all want to trim your cases in something that’s going to drag in the inside of the case neck to fall and scratch like the forster trimmer pilot.

Well OK then ... that's 1 "No" vote for trimming to length, and 1 "Lost Sale" for the Henderson Case Trimmer. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Side Note: I use the Accuracy-One Bullet Seating Gauge, and love the accuracy and simplicity (and measurement to the half-thousandth) ... but the way it works depends upon a very consistent case length to delivery accurate seating depth measurements ... so that's why case length really matters to me. Others ... care less. I get that.

 

[Sebrock]

If you are getting inconsistent trim lengths due to an inconsistent shoulder sizing then you need to address the cause of the issue which is your shit sizing job and not the trimmer which comes after the fact.

Even an extreme difference of .010 in a neck that’s .26 long overall is only a 4% difference. It’s simply not a critical dimension. The +\- of .001 in trim length with the giraud isn’t an issue.

Also, if your shoulder isn’t consistent than the oal trimmer is actually going to vary the actual neck length itself since the base of it is what’s changing position. So throw that in there to mull.


What y’all should be questioning is why y’all want to trim your cases in something that’s going to drag in the inside of the case neck to fall and scratch like the forster trimmer pilot.

Well so thats my thought. My head spacing is very accurate. Below .001, which means that my trimming is accurate. I dont think it matters if Im at 1.889 or 1.89 or 1.891 - ultimately the brass is 1.89 (+/-) - not enough to make any sort of difference. I guess ultimately the question and what F Class John looked at was the effect on neck tension (and bullet drag) due to cutting operations. Right?

 

[Sebrock]

Well OK then ... that's 1 "No" vote for trimming to length, and 1 "Lost Sale" for the Henderson Case Trimmer. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Side Note: I use the Accuracy-One Bullet Seating Gauge, and love the accuracy and simplicity (and measurement to the half-thousandth) ... but the way it works depends upon a very consistent case length to delivery accurate seating depth measurements ... so that's why case length really matters to me. Others ... care less. I get that.

I have the same gauge, I love it. But doesnt it trim off the shoulder? Or is it to the same radial point on the shoulder which is affected by case length? I do think if your sizing operation is consistent it doesnt matter and we are now talking about the effects of either cutter on the neck.

 

[ZiaHunter]

This whole argument about indexing off the shoulder verses total length of the case is non-sensical. Head space is head space and determined by the die and yes there is a high probability that headspace will vary from case to case for a whole variety of issues but that is a different issue. Trimming the neck is to prevent the mouth of the case from contacting the throat creating all kinds of issues. This will occur if the neck length is too long regardless of headspace variation if the case is fully forward in the chamber.

Over the years I have used and still own Forster, Wilson and currently use a Giraud. Wilson would produce cases which were generally within .001 while the Forster would not and both were time consuming to use. In addition, I don't want anything touching the inside of the neck after sizing and only trim to remove peening from tumbling . I can crank though a batch of cases for a match in a matter of minutes with a Giraud and spend time on the more critical aspects of reloading. If you are worried about .001 or .002 tolerances on neck length you may want to step back and rethink it.

 

[Choid]

Again, if the case headspaces off of the shoulder, the important dimension is the trim length from the shoulder, since trimming is really a question of keeping the neck of the case from getting overly long and creating a crimp upon chambering. The shoulder of your case determines where the neck sits in the chamber, and the distance from the shoulder to the end of the neck is the critical dimension. If you shorten your headspace, then you have excess distance between the bolt and the casehead, not between the shoulder and the lands. But if you then make up the difference by trimming to the same length, you are adding that dimension back at the end of the neck, not where you want it. It's just a geometry question, not an analysis of artistic merit.

 

[ZiaHunter]

I forgot to mention in my previous post an advantage of a neck trimmer that indexes off the shoulder. If you neck turn cases which I do requires consistent neck lengths to provide a uniform cut into the shoulder of the case.

 

[Choid]

Well so thats my thought. My head spacing is very accurate. Below .001, which means that my trimming is accurate. I dont think it matters if Im at 1.889 or 1.89 or 1.891 - ultimately the brass is 1.89 (+/-) - not enough to make any sort of difference. I guess ultimately the question and what F Class John looked at was the effect on neck tension (and bullet drag) due to cutting operations. Right?

This seems like another case of "now that we can measure it, it must me important." Now that people have AMP presses, they have decided that seating pressure graphs are undoubtedly important, though there is neither any real proof that this is true, nor is there really any way to isolate variables well enough to compare bullet drag based on "cutting operations." F Class John is great, but content creators need to create content.

 

[Sebrock]

This seems like another case of "now that we can measure it, it must me important." Now that people have AMP presses, they have decided that seating pressure graphs are undoubtedly important, though there is neither any real proof that this is true, nor is there really any way to isolate variables well enough to compare bullet drag based on "cutting operations." F Class John is great, but content creators need to create content.

Yeah I’m not disagreeing with you. That’s why I was curious if anyone tested this. I love my Giraud and my process.

 

[ma smith]

Henderson has supposedly better ergonomics than giraud, not better trimming geometry, i think people are conflating the two

Dthomas picked up data indicating galling in case necks from the pilots used in forster/ henderson type trimmers via his AMP press which was confirmed on visual inspection IIRC.

Again, thats a differnt narrative than trim length or trim geometry, if thats whats being alluded to above

Lastly, imho value of repeatability in this context is about workflow efficiency.

2 sec / case is less interesting if i have to slowly caliper check every 5th case. If machine x or y outputs to .001 repeatedly my QC process design is now check only 1/20 or 1/25, an 80% reduction of slow tedious step.

For a a bulk session 200 cases this adds up

Not gonna be 80% more accurate ammo, tho.

Not sure if that makes sense.

 

[Baron23]

This whole argument about indexing off the shoulder verses total length of the case is non-sensical.

Yep....absolutely yep.

To Giraud owners who have issues with the "ergonomics"...really, wear and tear on your fingers from pressing in and spinning a bit a lot of cases with the attendant vibration, I found a solution that is very much like what Henderson does wrt to holding the case.

From K&M

about 1/16-1/8 turn of that ring tightens or loosens the hold on the cartridge and works wonderfully. Nicely made bit of kit and absolutely a life saver on my fingers. And the total is just a bit less than $50

Power Adapter with Shell Holder

Power adapter for use with a cordless drill for turning with the Micro-Adjustable Neck Turner.

kmshooting.com

You need these four items to make up the tool...they are all shown on the page in the link above

 

[mtang45]

Trimming off the shoulder is much more desirable than trimming for case length. I would much rather have consistent neck lengths than have that additional variation because I trimmed from the case head. I mean my headspace is pretty consistent, so its not a huge concern to me, however folks that do have some variation in headspace can be assured that at least neck lengths are the same and not varying the same as their headspace; what a cluster that would be.

 

[Choid]

Henderson has supposedly better ergonomics than giraud, not better trimming geometry, i think people are conflating the two

Dthomas picked up data indicating galling in case necks from the pilots used in forster/ henderson type trimmers via his AMP press which was confirmed on visual inspection IIRC.

Again, thats a differnt narrative than trim length or trim geometry, if thats whats being alluded to above

Lastly, imho value of repeatability in this context is about workflow efficiency.

2 sec / case is less interesting if i have to slowly caliper check every 5th case. If machine x or y outputs to .001 repeatedly my QC process design is now check only 1/20 or 1/25, an 80% reduction of slow tedious step.

For a a bulk session 200 cases this adds up

Not gonna be 80% more accurate ammo, tho.

Not sure if that makes sense.

The best somebody can test w/r/t this cutting dynamics issue is how THEIR Giraud and THEIR Henderson, each with the amount of use and dullness THEY have put on them cut when using exactly the technique that THEY use. You can't make generalized statements without controlled variables.

Both trimmers seem great to me. It's likely more a question of workflow and personal comfort, as you say.

 

[bax]

The more I study it, the more I think trimming to a super consistent trim length is much better than inducing the case length variability that comes with trimming from a shoulder measurement

I'm not sure I understand your position here. Suppose that you have two cases, one with the shoulder at SAAMI length and one with the shoulder 0.010 shorter. You insert these into some trimmer that indexes off the shoulder. Those cases will be different length. The case volume problem is huge - 0.010 is a big difference - and it made the case lengths different but that is not the problem. The difference is shoulder dimension is the problem. Because index off the shoulder the neck lengths will be the same but there is no powder in there so that doesn't matter. Assuming perfecting seating to exactly the same COL, one bullet will be seated 0.010 deeper into the case than the other one, but that still isn't a problem. The shorter case may fail to fire because its headspace is out of whack - that is a problem. You will get different pressure - that is a problem and will seriously screw up your accuracy. You may get a compressed charge in the shorter case - that might be a problem. But no event is the difference in case overall length an issue. As Spife said, the shoulder dimension is the problem. Trimming two cases with significantly different shoulder dimensions to exactly the same case length is not helpful. Did I misunderstand your position?

By the way, I anneal my cases. I use good sizing tools, lube, and technique. For 308 cases my shoulder dimension is (most of the time) SAAMI -0.002 or -0.003. That is, exactly chamber size or chamber size minus one thou. I don't have to work hard to get that, I just have to do my steps the same every time.

 

[Sebrock]

I'm not sure I understand your position here. Suppose that you have two cases, one with the shoulder at SAAMI length and one with the shoulder 0.010 shorter. You insert these into some trimmer that indexes off the shoulder. Those cases will be different length. The case volume problem is huge - 0.010 is a big difference - and it made the case lengths different but that is not the problem. The difference is shoulder dimension is the problem. Because index off the shoulder the neck lengths will be the same but there is no powder in there so that doesn't matter. Assuming perfecting seating to exactly the same COL, one bullet will be seated 0.010 deeper into the case than the other one, but that still isn't a problem. The shorter case may fail to fire because its headspace is out of whack - that is a problem. You will get different pressure - that is a problem and will seriously screw up your accuracy. You may get a compressed charge in the shorter case - that might be a problem. But no event is the difference in case overall length an issue. As Spife said, the shoulder dimension is the problem. Trimming two cases with significantly different shoulder dimensions to exactly the same case length is not helpful. Did I misunderstand your position?

By the way, I anneal my cases. I use good sizing tools, lube, and technique. For 308 cases my shoulder dimension is (most of the time) SAAMI -0.002 or -0.003. That is, exactly chamber size or chamber size minus one thou. I don't have to work hard to get that, I just have to do my steps the same every time.

So theoretically, if your headspace varies by .01 then that person should send me their Henderson or Giraud trimmer before they hurt themselves. - Im like you, Im at SAAMI -.003 which is chamber -.001. Once my brass is properly fireformed - which takes a few firings, doesnt take much to get there and get there with almost no variation between cases.

Based on all the replies, I think when it comes to trimming we can all agree how important it is to properly and consistently size your brass - which has nothing to do with trimming other than, If you are like most of us here with under .001 in variation, neither method of trimming is going to give you anything different. Its whatever your preference is and gets you the best results. I dont think anyone has won a competition because they have one trimmer vs another when used properly - its usually just a matter of saving time and operation steps (trim/chamfer/deburr vs doing it in three steps)

The only question that remains is do either of these cut differently enough to make a difference on paper - i think the F Class John video (and he admitted this much) is a YMMV issue as @Choid mentioned.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The best somebody can test w/r/t this cutting dynamics issue is how THEIR Giraud and THEIR Henderson, each with the amount of use and dullness THEY have put on them cut when using exactly the technique that THEY use. You can't make generalized statements without controlled variables.

Both trimmers seem great to me. It's likely more a question of workflow and personal comfort, as you say.

The Henderson has better ergonomics. But because it’s a pilot, it may require more maintenance. Depending on personal preference and shooting discipline.

When I found the scratches inside the case neck with our AMP press, I could clean/polish the pilot and it would go away. But it would return.

Now, would this matter for PRS? Not one bit. Possibly not for F class either.

But, what it may do, if using an amp is confuse the user or even hide something else that is a problem. Thus taking longer to figure out why something isn’t shooting right.

The Giraud is less ergonomic but less maintenance. And cuts off the shoulder.

I own both and will likely keep both. For high volume/large target shooting I’ll use the Henderson. For more tedious shooting I’ll use the Giraud.

 

[Sebrock]

The Henderson has better ergonomics. But because it’s a pilot, it may require more maintenance. Depending on personal preference and shooting discipline.

When I found the scratches inside the case neck with our AMP press, I could clean/polish the pilot and it would go away. But it would return.

Now, would this matter for PRS? Not one bit. Possibly not for F class either.

But, what it may do, if using an amp is confuse the user or even hide something else that is a problem. Thus taking longer to figure out why something isn’t shooting right.

The Giraud is less ergonomic but less maintenance. And cuts off the shoulder.

I own both and will likely keep both. For high volume/large target shooting I’ll use the Henderson. For more tedious shooting I’ll use the Giraud.

Very good info. Thank you.

 

[ma smith]

Wonder if carbide pilots would lesson galling on case necks?

 

[Choid]

Again, if the case headspaces off of the shoulder, the important dimension is the trim length from the shoulder, since trimming is really a question of keeping the neck of the case from getting overly long and creating a crimp upon chambering. The shoulder of your case determines where the neck sits in the chamber, and the distance from the shoulder to the end of the neck is the critical dimension. If you shorten your headspace, then you have excess distance between the bolt and the casehead, not between the shoulder and the lands. But if you then make up the difference by trimming to the same length, you are adding that dimension back at the end of the neck, not where you want it. It's just a geometry question, not an analysis of artistic merit.

Just to clarify this, I think the Henderson trimmer looks awesome, and I'd be thrilled to have one. Todd also seems like a great guy.

My only point is that a trim to overall length set up could be more problematic with varying headspace, but virtually all people buying this trimmer probably resize their brass consistently, so it isn't an issue. But if brass is resized inconsistently, you will create fewer additional issues if you trim off of the shoulder than if you trim off of the OAL. Trimming off the shoulder stops the bleeding, so to speak, while trimming of the OAL compounds the issue.

Also, nitrile gloves really help with the Giraud.

 

[Sheldon N]

Very happy with my Giraud, don't see a need to change.

For my PRS competition brass which is all 40 degree shoulder and barely grows it's more like a easy chamfer/deburr machine rather than needing to trim a bunch of length off. All my brass is super consistent headspace so the trim length is also very consistent. I don't bother spot checking, just run it and whatever the size is, it is. Going back and measuring processed brass it's holding +/- one thou. I also trim my 223 trainer brass through usually every other firing. Trims off a bit more material, that brass is milsurp brass that I reprocessed with slightly more variable headspace so it's more like +/- 1.5 thou for OAL.

Speed is very quick, I prefer to flip the trimmer vertical and press the brass straight down into the machine. I typically do 300-400 pieces at a time for match brass and do 1,000 pieces at a time for the 223. With just me trimming the brass I can go at a steady pace of 2 seconds per piece. If I get some help from one of the kids and tag team with each of us alternating we can trim at just under 1 second per piece.