Is the K&M Arbor Press w/ LE Wilson Seater Dies - Neck dies worth it, consistency, accurate..

[ChristianSilver]

I'm looking to get the absolute most out of my reloads, consistency and repeatability. Those with the Arbor press and LE Wilson seater dies please chime in. Was there a very noticeable difference in performance? I'm looking at doing the neck sizing and decapping dies they offer as well.
If you had it to do over again, would you?

 

[Silverjay]

Helped me isolate variations upstream that caused different neck tensions. Eliminating the variation helped past 800 yards.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

First thing I noticed was the consistent seating depths...time after time. Being able to feel each bullet seat is something you can explain.

 

[ACard]

Christian, I run that set up. I find I can make some truly consistent reloads and when I shoot past 1k will say it makes a huge difference, imo. It combined with annealing and expanding mandrels allows me to fine tune neck tension and the segregate my reloads into lots that have very similar neck tension as measured by the 21st century hydro seater. It is my opinion that this helps mitigate SD/ES changes of impact at ELR ranges. YMMV. This is just what I have either experienced or convinced myself I have experienced to justify the expense...

 

[ChristianSilver]

Thanks for sharing results y’all have seen. I’m going to go ahead and order everything need for 6.5 cm and Dasher for now.

I think it will a very interesting find for me. Currently loading on Dillon 750, I drop all my charges on a AT V3. Anneal every other firing, use Lapua brass on my CM and Alpha on the Dasher. Use quality dies, only FL size when needed and care for my necks.. I trim and care for my brass, but do not turn necks.
I do feel that my neck tension is not 100% consistent, I honestly believe this will help in a huge way.

I just ordered a Forster Coax press also. I believe it and the Arbor setup will point out my downfalls.
The 750 is great and has served me well, will keep and continue to crank out 45 ACP, 9mm and 223 gas gun ammo. Will add 223 Rem to my Arbor press once I spend some time on it.

Watched several videos on the press and dies. How exactly is seating bullets on the press, not much leverage with the handle on the press being so short?


Thanks...

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you’re going to go with arbor press, get one with a force or pressure gauge. Might as well be able to assign a value to it and not just rely on feel.

Forget the neck die and decapping dies. Waste of time. FL resize and decap normally. You won’t see a difference neck vs FL and you’ll never have any extraction issues when you FL size.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, unless you’re getting unacceptable ES currently, an arbor press won’t magically change anything.

 

[ChristianSilver]

I’m getting SD of 9 and ES of 25 on a short string, 15 shots. I think I’m more interested in learning more on how my reloading techniques are going. I see the Arbor press as a learning tool.
Will definitely have a gauge, the standard.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I found the concentricity to be superior with the dies used with an arbor press, but the main gainer is knowing what your seating force is. Being able to put aside (as foulers, or whatever) rounds that fall outside whatever seating force range you're okay with makes a fair amount of difference in consistency of the rest. With my current process, I put aside about 1 out of 10.

The last time I measured all the rounds I loaded for a trip to BLM land (a couple months ago), I got an SD of right at 6 with my 300 PRC. That was, if memory serves, 44 rounds. I used a couple of the foulers to warm the barrel up, then shot the good rounds. That SD is pretty consistent with other trips with my 300. With my 6 BRA, I'll get mid-4s across a similar number of rounds.

I had good SDs before I got the arbor press and associated dies, but not quite this good. The dies play a role, but it's more the additional steps I put in place once I realized how much variation I had in seating force because of the force gauge on the press.

 

[Rocketmandb]

How exactly is seating bullets on the press, not much leverage with the handle on the press being so short?


Thanks...

I takes more force, obviously, vs. the 12"+ handles on a normal press. You could put a longer handle on if you want (it's just a rod with a ball on the end that fits through a hole on press then held with a thumb screw). However, I find the shorter handle helps clue you in that you're going to have a heavy or light seating round. Yes, you've got the gauge, but I like the extra feedback.

 

[Eostech]

If you’re going to go with arbor press, get one with a force or pressure gauge. Might as well be able to assign a value to it and not just rely on feel.

Forget the neck die and decapping dies. Waste of time. FL resize and decap normally. You won’t see a difference neck vs FL and you’ll never have any extraction issues when you FL size.

This is pretty much what I'm about to start, only because I wasn't sure when a standard .223 bullet seating die would make it's way over here.
( there seemed to be some lag between the USA and Australian markets but things are starting to become become unobtainable I think.)

Pretty interested to see how it goes.

 

[Dave62677]

I recommend size it then run brass with 21st century expander mandrel with your Desire neck tension first. This process always get me no more than than .002 runout. I seat it with the arbor press with force gauge. My seat pressure always stay consistent that way. I reach my velocity node over the weekend and the ES is only 5fps of 5 shots.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Few things to keep in mind:

Concentricity is of little to no consequence down range. Many of us have tested with runout up to and more than .010 and it hasn’t shown any difference. The main thing it does show is if something is wrong (such as a die). Though it’s not a measurement you should be using to predict performance of your ammo.

Seating force isn’t just a product of your neck inside diameter. It is a combination of neck diameter, friction, and neck hardness (and other things I’m either forgetting or actually don’t know factors in I’m sure).

So, if you’re going the extra step of a seating force/pressure gauge, you should be using mandrels (or collet die) to set neck diameter, pin gauges to check or spot check the diameter, some sort of lubricant and/or brushing to keep friction consistent, and keep an eye on hardness (via annealing if you choose). Otherwise you’ll have 10% or more that you’re separating or culling with your force/pressure gauge that could have otherwise had the same seating pressure/force.

 

[Criver600]

Thanks for sharing results y’all have seen. I’m going to go ahead and order everything need for 6.5 cm and Dasher for now.

I think it will a very interesting find for me. Currently loading on Dillon 750, I drop all my charges on a AT V3. Anneal every other firing, use Lapua brass on my CM and Alpha on the Dasher. Use quality dies, only FL size when needed and care for my necks.. I trim and care for my brass, but do not turn necks.
I do feel that my neck tension is not 100% consistent, I honestly believe this will help in a huge way.

I just ordered a Forster Coax press also. I believe it and the Arbor setup will point out my downfalls.
The 750 is great and has served me well, will keep and continue to crank out 45 ACP, 9mm and 223 gas gun ammo. Will add 223 Rem to my Arbor press once I spend some time on it.

Watched several videos on the press and dies. How exactly is seating bullets on the press, not much leverage with the handle on the press being so short?


Thanks...

I've been a competitive shooter for 40 years, NRA High Power, Long Range, Smallbore Prone, IBS/NBRSA 600 & 1000 yard benchrest. 2 Long Range State Championships and I've won 1000 & 600 yard BR matches.
Jumping from a Dillon to an Arbor press and hand dies probably is not going to be the quantum leap your looking for.
If your wanting to get the ultimate accuracy out or your handloads find a local 600 or 1000 yard benchrest range, go shoot whatever rifle you have, meet some folks, hang out, and and with a little luck find a mentor (preferably one that wins) and listen. Shoot a lot Good Luck!

 

[Milo 2.5]

If it is on your radar, most likely you will need to try one. As mentioned, get the force pack, at least gather some numbers.
If you do go this route, quantify your gains, honestly, that means more than one outing.

I went this route 3-4 yrs ago, and it was not for me, there were no gains to be had at that time and I quickly sold. The variation from my process was not worth the effort either. Now, there has been twice when I wished I had kept it just to gauge seating force, but not sure what I would have done with that info. I can still feel discrepancies and cull.
Exact seat depths really only matter on new chambers and if you shoot vld bullets. And as mentioned, runout is subjective, quality dies and press will put you under .003", and honestly, that number is .0015".
Reading makes us over think this shit.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I just want one as an instrument to measure the effects all the bushings, mandrels, annealing, pin guages, graphite, etc really make.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I just want one as an instrument to measure the effects all the bushings, mandrels, annealing, pin guages, graphite, etc really make.

Smarter way to look at the subject. Asking sincerely, would you still shoot all the stages to identify gains-losses? If so, all you have is an arbitrary number. Using it as a gauge as to when to anneal makes sense, but looks like you have plenty of steps to somewhat cancel the anneal.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Smarter way to look at the subject. Asking sincerely, would you still shoot all the stages to identify gains-losses? If so, all you have is an arbitrary number. Using it as a gauge as to when to anneal makes sense, but looks like you have plenty of steps to somewhat cancel the anneal.

What stages are you referring to? The answer would still be yes because to be honest I enjoy just being a mad scientist when reloading, testing and trying new things.

What do you mean by cancel the anneal?

 

[Milo 2.5]

What do you mean by cancel the anneal?

Cancel would not be the correct term, you anneal, size, mandrel, then lube, lot of addons is all, lol

 

[lightman]

I used both Redding Competition Dies and Wilson Dies with an Arbor Press when I was shooting long range benchrest. There was very little difference with my numbers when using either die set but ammo loaded with the Wilson dies was slightly better. Key word Slightly. I had a 6.5-284 with a tight neck chamber so I had to neck turn. My loads were rather hot and I had to size the body about every 4th or 5th loading or I would have chambering problems.

Wilson's standard die is made from steel and will rust from your finger prints if not oiled or waxed. I thought it worthwhile to spend the extra money and get the stainless. The micrometer top on the seating die was nice but not really necessary.

Most of our matches had between 20 and 30 shooters and most said they used Wilson dies. Most of the others used Redding. Take this for what its worth. Most of the guys were willing to help a rookie but a few were rather closed mouthed.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Let me ask this. Is it better to have lower neck tension or higher?

 

[ChristianSilver]

I've been a competitive shooter for 40 years, NRA High Power, Long Range, Smallbore Prone, IBS/NBRSA 600 & 1000 yard benchrest. 2 Long Range State Championships and I've won 1000 & 600 yard BR matches.
Jumping from a Dillon to an Arbor press and hand dies probably is not going to be the quantum leap your looking for.
If your wanting to get the ultimate accuracy out or your handloads find a local 600 or 1000 yard benchrest range, go shoot whatever rifle you have, meet some folks, hang out, and and with a little luck find a mentor (preferably one that wins) and listen. Shoot a lot Good Luck!

I take my 6.5 CM out to 1300 yards, Dasher out to 1,000 yards regularly. Not looking for quantum leaps, trying to avoid the one or two shots that felt really good that are not settling in on POA. I know, well I think I know when I pull a shot, but the ones that just seem so right bother me when it’s off.
That’s where I’m at, trying to take all errors out that I can. I’ve been shooting non competitive for years, ex-military and grew up shooting.

If I can take a few 10ths of a Mil off my grouping at 800 and have one less well shit I’ll be happy. It’s a learning curve, doing everything we can to eliminate human error, and then just realizing it’s me is fine. But if I can run down, eliminate just a few questions, errors I’ll be GTG....

 

[lightman]

Let me ask this. Is it better to have lower neck tension or higher?

To be honest I don't rightly know. Benchrest guys often run low enough neck tension that you can pull the bullet out with your fingers. Not very practical for any shooting sport other than BR. BR guys seem to have a rule that you never unload a BR rifle. The bullet is often jammed into the lands and will be pulled on extraction. The less than 2oz triggers don't not like to bumped either!

 

[Dthomas3523]

I take my 6.5 CM out to 1300 yards, Dasher out to 1,000 yards regularly. Not looking for quantum leaps, trying to avoid the one or two shots that felt really good that are not settling in on POA. I know, well I think I know when I pull a shot, but the ones that just seem so right bother me when it’s off.
That’s where I’m at, trying to take all errors out that I can. I’ve been shooting non competitive for years, ex-military and grew up shooting.

If I can take a few 10ths of a Mil off my grouping at 800 and have one less well shit I’ll be happy. It’s a learning curve, doing everything we can to eliminate human error, and then just realizing it’s me is fine. But if I can run down, eliminate just a few questions, errors I’ll be GTG....

If the round ends up outside of where your ES says it should......it’s you. Based on the statements in the above post, it doesn’t sound like that it’s the ammo. You stated you’re getting a 25 ES. You’ll be hard pressed to be able to shoot that difference unless using F class rests and bags.

Also, “a few tenths”??? An moa is roughly .3 mil. You ain’t shaving a “few” off with an arbor press.

Spend the money on quality in person instruction. I can almost guarantee that’s where the “oh shit” comes from.

And I’m speaking from the experience of being a lifetime shooter + mil/le experience. If you haven’t taken a class or done some serious research into fundamentals, you don’t know how to really shoot.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Let me ask this. Is it better to have lower neck tension or higher?

I can't remember ever going above the .002" of neck tension, but I have brought a fair share of loads in with more neck tension. I think brass brand or composition plays hard here.
My simple observations, and YMMV.
Lapua has really benefitted from more, and most would question this.
Norma even though it seems softer, has really not, good at normal.
Peterson seems fine with around .002", but, I have some new Dasher brass, if I decide to fire it all right away, needs something, I just have not had time to play with.

 

[Dthomas3523]

For reference, a 109 Berger going 2900 vs 2925 (25 ES) has a 5” vertical dispersion @ 1k yds.

A 15 ES is 3” dispersion.

Do you shoot well enough to exploit a 15 ES vs a 25 ES?

 

[ChristianSilver]

If the round ends up outside of where your ES says it should......it’s you. Based on the statements in the above post, it doesn’t sound like that it’s the ammo. You stated you’re getting a 25 ES. You’ll be hard pressed to be able to shoot that difference unless using F class rests and bags.

Also, “a few tenths”??? An moa is roughly .3 mil. You ain’t shaving a “few” off with an arbor press.

Spend the money on quality in person instruction. I can almost guarantee that’s where the “oh shit” comes from.

And I’m speaking from the experience of being a lifetime shooter + mil/le experience. If you haven’t taken a class or done some serious research into fundamentals, you don’t know how to really shoot.

My ES appears to be good, I don’t always load up my LR and chrono every shot. I should do it more often and will. This is possibly my downfall, really need to chrono everything for a while...
I feel my fundamentals are solid, I’m very consistent in my setup, and again like I stated I know when I pull a shot.
Sold my 6.5 and Dasher a few weeks ago here on the hide, building a new setup next week.
This is where I’m going to dig into my reloading consistency.
My Foster Coax, in-line fab mount, and other goodies to be here next week. My Arbor press, dies and other items 4 to 6 weeks out.
Will get my Terminus Zeus that’s setting at my FFL’s place and get it fitted in my chassis and barrels broke in and begin dialing in.

 

[CK1.0]

My ES appears to be good, I don’t always load up my LR and chrono every shot. I should do it more often and will. This is possibly my downfall, really need to chrono everything for a while...

Or, maybe chrono less, and shoot more lol. A chrono is for load development only IMO, truing one's MV with a target or small plate at 600yrds is way better and tells you more in the long run as far as I'm concerned.

When shooting out to 1000 or more, there's so many bigger variables in play that we need to control besides slight differences in velocity. I mean, even a slight twitch adds inches to where one's impact lands, a bad trigger pull can mean a foot. Once one has their reloading game up to where they're regularly getting relatively low ES numbers, getting slightly smaller numbers there is small potatoes compared to the other stuff.

I wouldn't bother with the arbor press thing, it's just a different way of doing he same thing (just slower and even more tedious). I have a buddy with the whole K&M setup and I've messed around with it, IMHO the force gauge is just a way to see arbitrary numbers on stuff you can already feel, and none of the numbers are exact anyway so it doesn't really tell one a whole lot. If you're shooting F-Class, sure go for it, but it's not a game changer.

You'd be much better off putting those funds towards an AMP if you don't already have one. JMHO.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or, maybe chrono less, and shoot more lol. A chrono is for load development only IMO, truing one's MV with a target or small plate at 600yrds is way better and tells you more in the long run as far as I'm concerned.

When shooting out to 1000 or more, there's so many bigger variables in play that we need to control besides slight differences in velocity. I mean, even a slight twitch adds inches to where one's impact lands, a bad trigger pull can mean a foot. Once one has their reloading game up to where they're regularly getting relatively low ES numbers, getting slightly smaller numbers there is small potatoes compared to the other stuff.

I wouldn't bother with the arbor press thing, it's just a different way of doing he same thing (just slower and even more tedious). I have a buddy with the whole K&M setup and I've messed around with it, IMHO the force gauge is just a way to see arbitrary numbers on stuff you can already feel, and none of the numbers are exact anyway so it doesn't really tell one a whole lot. If you're shooting F-Class, sure go for it, but it's not a game changer.

You'd be much better off putting those funds towards an AMP if you don't already have one. JMHO.

This is not great info.

1: load development doesn’t just end all of a sudden. And you need lots of data to know what your actual ES is. So, you need to be taking chrono data long term if you’re actually serious.

2: Velocity differences are just as important as fundamentals and such at distance. If you’re trying to shoot .5 moa @ 1k and you have an ES of 30fps, it’s basically impossible to do.

This is why David Tubb keeps a magneto attached to his rifle. Velocity matters

3: Truing is completely different. You do whatever you need to make the software work, which is where things like velocity truing at 600yds comes into play. But that is completely different than logging long term velocity data.

4: depending on your press, using an arbor press is many times faster. I personally can seat faster with my hydro press than I can with my 419 zero

5: the numbers on the gauge are only arbitrary if you don’t have a consistent process or you don’t have the proper knowledge. A high or low number on the gauge or dial means something. It’s up to you to know your process and have the knowledge to know what it means


To reiterate, most people have zero clue what their ammo is actually doing because they don’t chrono enough to know what their actual ES is.

Load development is continuous throughout the life of the barrel, even if you’re just monitoring it performing well.

You can shoot 1,000 rounds a day. But if you stopped using your chrono after you developed your initial load, and you think your ES is 20 when it’s really 60........you’ll be chasing your tail trying to figure out why you “pulled” a shot you actually didn’t pull.

 

[Rocketmandb]

2: Velocity differences are just as important as fundamentals and such at distance. If you’re trying to shoot .5 moa @ 1k and you have an ES of 30fps, it’s basically impossible to do.

This is why David Tubb keeps a magneto attached to his rifle. Velocity matters

I set up my Labradar most of the time I shoot alone, and for a good amount of the time I'm shooting with someone. Not only for what you mention, but I tend to shoot a lot more ELR than anything else, and if I miss low, for example, at 2k yards, I want to know if it was me or the round.

 

[jmw]

Also, unless you’re getting unacceptable ES currently, an arbor press won’t magically change anything.

that is what I would thin as well. If your numbers a good already can you even hold the difference when shooting with bag and bipod. I would think it would have to be a bench rest situation tho see any gains. Just my thoughts

 

[Dthomas3523]

that is what I would thin as well. If your numbers a good already can you even hold the difference when shooting with bag and bipod. I would think it would have to be a bench rest situation tho see any gains. Just my thoughts

I still prefer the hydro press. I’m actually faster with it than a regular press.

And it’s another easy QC check.

 

[ChristianSilver]

For reference, a 109 Berger going 2900 vs 2925 (25 ES) has a 5” vertical dispersion @ 1k yds.

A 15 ES is 3” dispersion.

Do you shoot well enough to exploit a 15 ES vs a 25 ES?

Was shooting 105 Hybrids @ 2,960 on the above mention.


Do I shoot well enough to exploit a 15 ES vs a 25 ES? Never made any comments to my abilities to shoot better than a 10 FPS spread.
I’m simply looking trying to do better than current. I do know without a doubt any improvement is a positive step to being better.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Was shooting 105 Hybrids @ 2,960 on the above mention.


Do I shoot well enough to exploit a 15 ES vs a 25 ES? Never made any comments to my abilities to shoot better than a 10 FPS spread.
I’m simply looking trying to do better than current. I do know without a doubt any improvement is a positive step to being better.

Everyone has been trying to tell you nicely. So I’ll just say it:

You’re barking up the wrong tree and don’t have the required knowledge and skill at the moment.

You don’t seem to understand what will and won’t matter. If you can’t shooter better than that, it’s literally zero improvement.

 

[Cjwise5]

Been my go-to method of reloading for precision rounds for years. I personally think it's a great choice and I really like the feel and control I have with it.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Everyone has been trying to tell you nicely. So I’ll just say it:

You’re barking up the wrong tree and don’t have the required knowledge and skill at the moment.

You don’t seem to understand what will and won’t matter. If you can’t shooter better than that, it’s literally zero improvement.

Trying to tell me nicely?

I’m not barking up the wrong tree, you don’t know anything about me or my capabilities.
Shoot better than what, I never mentioned my groups, all I said was a 10 FPS spread.

So you can kiss my..., and I’m saying that nicely..

Seems you always come at people, seen your post towards others. If you don’t like something, your no better than others, damn sure not above me...

You surely don’t know me, that’s for sure.

 

[ChristianSilver]

I don’t normally reply this way, been courteous towards others. But you are damn sure no better than me or anyone else....

A simple question about dies and a press turns into this...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Trying to tell me nicely?

I’m not barking up the wrong tree, you don’t know anything about me or my capabilities.
Shoot better than what, I never mentioned my groups, all I said was a 10 FPS spread.

So you can kiss my..., and I’m saying that nicely..

Seems you always come at people, seen your post towards others. If you don’t like something, your no better than others, damn sure not above me...

You surely don’t know me, that’s for sure.

Because I know when someone says:

“Shave a few tenths”
“My ES is 25”
“Been shooting all my life”
“My fundamentals are good” when it’s obvious you don’t know if they are or aren’t based on all the other things you’ve said.....

That you’re completely barking up the wrong tree.

You need to be focused on things that will give you actual results. Not decreasing your 25 ES.

 

[Jigstick]

If you are using anything other than an arbor press and inline seater you’re a fucking jackoff

 

[Dthomas3523]

If you were able to shoot to the capability of your ammo, it would be very obvious such as:

“My ES is 25, and I’m shooting .5moa @ 1k yds and I want to get better than that.” This would lead people to start advising you to get more equipment and really go down a rabbit hole.

Not

“My ES is 25 and I want to take off some tenths of my group at 800.” That means it’s the shooter and not the ammo. As your ES would allow you to be at about a .1 mil group @ 800 and wouldn’t be the reason for the “well shit” shots.

Which is the exact reason I’m telling you that your knowledge isn’t where it needs to be.

Rewind a bit, educate yourself what matters and doesn’t matter vs your results down range. And take a few really good fundamental classes. You’ll see instance improvement that an arbor press won’t get you at the moment until you check those boxes.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Because I know when someone says:

“Shave a few tenths”
“My ES is 25”
“Been shooting all my life”
“My fundamentals are good” when it’s obvious you don’t know if they are or aren’t based on all the other things you’ve said.....

That you’re completely barking up the wrong tree.

You need to be focused on things that will give you actual results. Not decreasing your 25 ES.

You show me where I stated I wanted to lower my ES, pay attention, read what others are saying. Quit looking for your chance to jump in and show how superior or better you are than others....

 

[Steel head]

Been contemplating an arbor press with force gauge for my ELR stuff
Finishing sizing with an expander certainly helped with vertical.
Press cost with inline seater is reasonable.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You show me where I stated I wanted to lower my ES, pay attention, read what others are saying. Quit looking for your chance to jump in and show how superior or better you are than others....

Holy shit......

What else do you think will improve your group size down range??

The only thing you can improve using an arbor press and inline dies is culling inconsistent rounds which gives you smaller ES.

You’re still showing why you’re not at the point to need one. You don’t even know what the end goal is.

Your ES literally controls your vertical dispersion at distance.

 

[Steel head]

Holy shit......

What else do you think will improve your group size down range??

The only think you can improve using an arbor press and inline dies is culling inconsistent rounds which gives you smaller ES.

You’re still showing why you’re not at the point to need one. You don’t even know what the end goal is.

Your ES literally controls your vertical dispersion at distance.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Really, god your the man..

Not shit, thanks...

 

[Rocketmandb]

If you are using anything other than an arbor press and inline seater you’re a fucking jackoff

Mil

 

[ChristianSilver]

Well anyways, thanks for all who were kind enough to offer things in a positive and pleasant way.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Holy shit......

What else do you think will improve your group size down range??

The only thing you can improve using an arbor press and inline dies is culling inconsistent rounds which gives you smaller ES.

You’re still showing why you’re not at the point to need one. You don’t even know what the end goal is.

Your ES literally controls your vertical dispersion at distance.

I surely do know what the end goal is...
why don’t you go somewhere else and let them see just how great you are...
I know where you stand with me...

 

[Dthomas3523]

For anyone else reading this looking for info:

If you’re unhappy with your results at say 800 or 1k, there’s a very simple way to decipher if anything different in your loading process will help.

I will use .5moa as the standard.

1: are your groups @100 under .5moa? If not, adjust seating depth

2: is your *true* (meaning long term) ES small enough to mathematically stay inside .5moa?

If yes, and you’re not inside .5moa, it’s the shooter (or things like mirage and light refraction)
If no, then it’s possible that it’s the ammo. Get the ammo ES under the required amount for .5moa if groups are still not under .5moa, it’s now the shooter.

And as always, go take a good class. Several if possible. Shooting isn’t instinctual at all. And most of the time, when we have been shooting our entire lives without instruction, we don’t know what we don’t know and likely don’t shoot anywhere as good as we would like to think.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Been contemplating an arbor press with force gauge for my ELR stuff
Finishing sizing with an expander certainly helped with vertical.
Press cost with inline seater is reasonable.

The press cost is low, and the dies cost similar to regular press dies. No brainer to get one for new calibers going forward. Then, once you use it on a new caliber, and you decide to replace all your old seating dies, you find all sorts of nifty uses for them:

Single Case Holder for Reloading (stabilizing apparatus not included)

Book Mark

Low Impact Shake Weight