I dont know much about these guns except they were supposedly the most accurate semi auto 308 for a while. Dont know how they stand now, but to the point. I would like to have one simply just because. I would like to hunt with it, and maybe use it for competition down the road. I have been looking for parts, and "authentic" HK parts are ridiculously expensive. Would a clone perform as well as the original? What made the "HK" branded ones so special? Was it simply superior workmanship, or were their different specs used? I saw one at the gun show this weekend and was very impressed. I loved the way everything felt. It just felt right, more right than my AR10. So that is why I am asking, if it would be a suitable replacement for my Armalite. What are the pros and cons compared to the Armalite AR10? Please take it easy on this noob, Im here for education.
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Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
- Thread starter AssJack
- Start date
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
At one time, the PSG-1 was the standard by which the world's precision semi-auto rifles could be judged, but many, MANY years have since passed and products have been developed with considerable emphasis on accuracy and reliability that make the PSG-1 (and clones) great collector rifles and for those who simply WANT one, but far from ideal or cost-effective for the masses. The accuracy standard that HK guarantees with all PSG-1's is 50 rounds of match ammo into an 80mm (3.14") circle at 300m. 50 rounds...not a 3-shot or even a 5-shot group. I have never seen one that would not exceed that guarantee with proper ammo and a shooter that knew what they were doing.
Now the BAD news...the money you pay to get what you get from the PSG-1 in terms of performance is excessive to put it mildly unless you have unlimited funds and no other options at your disposal. For a good condition PSG-1 (factory, with accessories) you will pay anywhere from $13k and higher. The problems with the PSG-1 is that an off-the-shelf, modern semi-auto 308 AR-variant at 1/6th the price (or cheaper) is capable of meeting, if not exceeding the same level of performance you can achieve with the PSG-1.
Building a PSG-1 clone can be done (by the best builders out there such as Urbach, IGF, etc.) for roughly 1/2 or so the cost of a complete factory PSG-1. Still though...you are talking about 2.5-3x the price of a quality custom AR-10 type rifle (or a high-end commercially available alternative) that will shoot as well, if not better, in terms of accuracy and reliability.
Another thing...have you actually had a PSG-1 in your hands? Other than just drooling on one or finger-f--ing it at the gun show. I mean pick it up, get into position with it, move it around, haul it further than 100yds? If so, I would think you'd realize that they are roughly 18lb rifles (equipped with the factory issued scope/mag.) and they are LONG with their nearly 26" heavy barrels. They are FAR from ideal hunting rifles. If you want one just to have one, then by all means...they are great rifles all around. If you want one that you actually plan on dragging into the woods, beating up in competition, etc., I think you'll fare better with a clone rifle (at least when you drop it, bang it up, scrtach it up, etc. you won't feel quite the same tug on your heartstrings and your wallet).
If you want more background, performance results, clone build-out info, etc. on the PSG-1 platform, I suggest that you consult the HKPro forums.
At one time, the PSG-1 was the standard by which the world's precision semi-auto rifles could be judged, but many, MANY years have since passed and products have been developed with considerable emphasis on accuracy and reliability that make the PSG-1 (and clones) great collector rifles and for those who simply WANT one, but far from ideal or cost-effective for the masses. The accuracy standard that HK guarantees with all PSG-1's is 50 rounds of match ammo into an 80mm (3.14") circle at 300m. 50 rounds...not a 3-shot or even a 5-shot group. I have never seen one that would not exceed that guarantee with proper ammo and a shooter that knew what they were doing.
Now the BAD news...the money you pay to get what you get from the PSG-1 in terms of performance is excessive to put it mildly unless you have unlimited funds and no other options at your disposal. For a good condition PSG-1 (factory, with accessories) you will pay anywhere from $13k and higher. The problems with the PSG-1 is that an off-the-shelf, modern semi-auto 308 AR-variant at 1/6th the price (or cheaper) is capable of meeting, if not exceeding the same level of performance you can achieve with the PSG-1.
Building a PSG-1 clone can be done (by the best builders out there such as Urbach, IGF, etc.) for roughly 1/2 or so the cost of a complete factory PSG-1. Still though...you are talking about 2.5-3x the price of a quality custom AR-10 type rifle (or a high-end commercially available alternative) that will shoot as well, if not better, in terms of accuracy and reliability.
Another thing...have you actually had a PSG-1 in your hands? Other than just drooling on one or finger-f--ing it at the gun show. I mean pick it up, get into position with it, move it around, haul it further than 100yds? If so, I would think you'd realize that they are roughly 18lb rifles (equipped with the factory issued scope/mag.) and they are LONG with their nearly 26" heavy barrels. They are FAR from ideal hunting rifles. If you want one just to have one, then by all means...they are great rifles all around. If you want one that you actually plan on dragging into the woods, beating up in competition, etc., I think you'll fare better with a clone rifle (at least when you drop it, bang it up, scrtach it up, etc. you won't feel quite the same tug on your heartstrings and your wallet).
If you want more background, performance results, clone build-out info, etc. on the PSG-1 platform, I suggest that you consult the HKPro forums.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
They are cool, a great collector piece and somewhat rare in the states.
Other than that they were the semi auto of the day, 13-15k buys alot of firearms. If money was no object I am a huge HK fan and it is one of the most desired for a HK.
If you wallets are deep then by all means
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=204351036
They are cool, a great collector piece and somewhat rare in the states.
Other than that they were the semi auto of the day, 13-15k buys alot of firearms. If money was no object I am a huge HK fan and it is one of the most desired for a HK.
If you wallets are deep then by all means
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=204351036
G
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Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
If you wish to know more about HK guns, check out hkpro.com. Dig deep in their archives. If you post the same question there, you may not receive much of an answer as the traffic has slowed in recent years.
PSG-1 and MSG-90 clones can range across the board. Murray Urbach's clones are about as close to the real thing as you can get (for the MSG-90, it IS as close as you will get). I believe it is Tracey Precision that has Urbach PSG and MSG clones for sale on Gunbroker for something like $6k and $8k respectively. Real deal PSG-1's appear in the $13-$16k neighborhood from time to time depending on package contents, condition and history.
I am a huge HK fan. I also have a great respect for the roller-lock guns which descended from the G3. However I will admit that it is just a fancy word for "blow back" and the technology is obsolete by today's standards. HK had to try especially hard to turn this operating system into a sniper-grade platform. The optical offerings on both rifles are primitive by today's standards as well. The PSG-1 sports only a 6x scope marked out to 600m. Their modularity and ability to accept accessories is not up to today's standards. And Lord help you if you want spare parts. I think a spare set of rollers is around $400 last time I checked. While both rifles are very impressive to behold in their engineering and their accuracy standard: 50 rounds in less than 80mm at 300m (sub MOA with 3.14" at 328y) is nothing to scoff at.
All that said, most who opt for this platform do so for either the mystique of the platform. No person in their right mind would spend this kind of coin for a work gun when you can get an AR platform that will shoot as good (if not better) and with better optics for a fraction of the price. Hell you could have 3 LMT MWS's with NightForce glass for the same price or less and have a rifle that is more capable x3.
Honestly, man I once thought the PSG-1 was the end all be all and my holy grail of guns.......unless you just have to have one, there are scores of better, cheaper options out there for you.
If you wish to know more about HK guns, check out hkpro.com. Dig deep in their archives. If you post the same question there, you may not receive much of an answer as the traffic has slowed in recent years.
PSG-1 and MSG-90 clones can range across the board. Murray Urbach's clones are about as close to the real thing as you can get (for the MSG-90, it IS as close as you will get). I believe it is Tracey Precision that has Urbach PSG and MSG clones for sale on Gunbroker for something like $6k and $8k respectively. Real deal PSG-1's appear in the $13-$16k neighborhood from time to time depending on package contents, condition and history.
I am a huge HK fan. I also have a great respect for the roller-lock guns which descended from the G3. However I will admit that it is just a fancy word for "blow back" and the technology is obsolete by today's standards. HK had to try especially hard to turn this operating system into a sniper-grade platform. The optical offerings on both rifles are primitive by today's standards as well. The PSG-1 sports only a 6x scope marked out to 600m. Their modularity and ability to accept accessories is not up to today's standards. And Lord help you if you want spare parts. I think a spare set of rollers is around $400 last time I checked. While both rifles are very impressive to behold in their engineering and their accuracy standard: 50 rounds in less than 80mm at 300m (sub MOA with 3.14" at 328y) is nothing to scoff at.
All that said, most who opt for this platform do so for either the mystique of the platform. No person in their right mind would spend this kind of coin for a work gun when you can get an AR platform that will shoot as good (if not better) and with better optics for a fraction of the price. Hell you could have 3 LMT MWS's with NightForce glass for the same price or less and have a rifle that is more capable x3.
Honestly, man I once thought the PSG-1 was the end all be all and my holy grail of guns.......unless you just have to have one, there are scores of better, cheaper options out there for you.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I have to wonder how many shooters, even amongst the best here on this site, can reliably and repeatedly shoot a 50-round 1-MOA group at 300 yards? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect even those who are outstanding shots will screw up every ONCE in a while, and 50 rounds is a lot of chances to accidentally pull a round, read the wind incorrectly, or just get tired and slip up slightly. Better than a 98% success rate on each shot is the only way you can achieve that performance. Has anyone here ever fired a 50-round group before?
I have to wonder how many shooters, even amongst the best here on this site, can reliably and repeatedly shoot a 50-round 1-MOA group at 300 yards? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect even those who are outstanding shots will screw up every ONCE in a while, and 50 rounds is a lot of chances to accidentally pull a round, read the wind incorrectly, or just get tired and slip up slightly. Better than a 98% success rate on each shot is the only way you can achieve that performance. Has anyone here ever fired a 50-round group before?
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">unless you just have to have one, there are scores of better, cheaper options out there for you. </div></div>
very true, but they wouldn't be a PSG1. and eventually you'll still be wishing you had a real deal PSG1.
Just like many cool things in life, you just don't go and try to justify the purchase, or ask for recommendations. Either you get it, or you don't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">unless you just have to have one, there are scores of better, cheaper options out there for you. </div></div>
very true, but they wouldn't be a PSG1. and eventually you'll still be wishing you had a real deal PSG1.
Just like many cool things in life, you just don't go and try to justify the purchase, or ask for recommendations. Either you get it, or you don't.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Most Tier1 units had PSG-1's in the early '90s
However Hk was really proud of them and rebarreling was a literal fortune. IIRC it was around $8000 Hk wanted to rebarrel a gun, I think this was including the shipping to and fro HkO.
IIRC at that time frame the KAC SR-25 LW Match (which became the Mk11 Mod0) was around $6,300 gov pricing inc a can and optic.
And with the PSG-1 you where stuck with the fixed 6x scope built in unless your unit armorers could cut it off and affix a chuck of rail to the top for optics.
I'll never figure out why Hk never updated the system into a 1913 rail (receiver and handguards).
I had a Hk21 for a while, and that gun with good ammo would print under 1 MOA, not bad for a belt fed system.
These days there are a ton of 7.62mm Semi-Auto's out there that will offer better accuracy, more modular and cheaper.
Most Tier1 units had PSG-1's in the early '90s
However Hk was really proud of them and rebarreling was a literal fortune. IIRC it was around $8000 Hk wanted to rebarrel a gun, I think this was including the shipping to and fro HkO.
IIRC at that time frame the KAC SR-25 LW Match (which became the Mk11 Mod0) was around $6,300 gov pricing inc a can and optic.
And with the PSG-1 you where stuck with the fixed 6x scope built in unless your unit armorers could cut it off and affix a chuck of rail to the top for optics.
I'll never figure out why Hk never updated the system into a 1913 rail (receiver and handguards).
I had a Hk21 for a while, and that gun with good ammo would print under 1 MOA, not bad for a belt fed system.
These days there are a ton of 7.62mm Semi-Auto's out there that will offer better accuracy, more modular and cheaper.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
PSG 1 is very nice to set up ona stand and shoot from stationary position. In field I could find far better for far cheaper.
I would take a MSG90 over it in field. I could be screwing up the numbers but its HxK DM rifle from long ago.
PSG 1 is very nice to set up ona stand and shoot from stationary position. In field I could find far better for far cheaper.
I would take a MSG90 over it in field. I could be screwing up the numbers but its HxK DM rifle from long ago.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the SR9T? </div></div>
The SR9T and SR9TC rifles were nothing more than neutered HK91 rifles with slightly different barrels. Here is a breakdown on the SR9 lineup:
SR9 - Neutered HK91. 19.7" polygonal barrel without muzzle threading or any muzzle device (ban compliance), thumbhole stock, SR9 "sporter" handguard (no bipod ability to retain the "sporting" nature of the rifle);
SR9T - Same as above, with replacement of the thumbhole stock with the MSG-90 adjustable buttstock, PSG-1 complete trigger pack (incl. PSG-1 grip);
SR9TC - Same as SR9T above, with replacement of the MSG-90 adjustable buttstock with the PSG-1 stock.
I own an SR9TC and it is a beautiful rifle and shoots very well. The SR9 base rifles are capable of 1.5 MOA accuracy (or slightly better) thanks to the very high quality barrels used by HK, with the T and TC models achieving MOA or so because of the vastly improved PSG-1 trigger pack and overall "ergonomics" of the rifle (adjustable stock fit to the shooter, etc.). That said, they can be incredibly "particular" about ammo. I never got below MOA with any factory ammo with my TC, including FGMM and BH 168gr and 175gr loads, but my handloads got me into the 0.8" range for 5-round 100yd groups with which I was more than pleased. It is a solid MOA rifle on any given day.
However, it is still in the same problem categories as the PSG-1 in terms of the inflated price tag, the almost complete lack of aftermarket support, and failing by comparison to more modern, semi-auto rifles that will surpass its performance at a mere fraction of the cost.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the SR9T? </div></div>
The SR9T and SR9TC rifles were nothing more than neutered HK91 rifles with slightly different barrels. Here is a breakdown on the SR9 lineup:
SR9 - Neutered HK91. 19.7" polygonal barrel without muzzle threading or any muzzle device (ban compliance), thumbhole stock, SR9 "sporter" handguard (no bipod ability to retain the "sporting" nature of the rifle);
SR9T - Same as above, with replacement of the thumbhole stock with the MSG-90 adjustable buttstock, PSG-1 complete trigger pack (incl. PSG-1 grip);
SR9TC - Same as SR9T above, with replacement of the MSG-90 adjustable buttstock with the PSG-1 stock.
I own an SR9TC and it is a beautiful rifle and shoots very well. The SR9 base rifles are capable of 1.5 MOA accuracy (or slightly better) thanks to the very high quality barrels used by HK, with the T and TC models achieving MOA or so because of the vastly improved PSG-1 trigger pack and overall "ergonomics" of the rifle (adjustable stock fit to the shooter, etc.). That said, they can be incredibly "particular" about ammo. I never got below MOA with any factory ammo with my TC, including FGMM and BH 168gr and 175gr loads, but my handloads got me into the 0.8" range for 5-round 100yd groups with which I was more than pleased. It is a solid MOA rifle on any given day.
However, it is still in the same problem categories as the PSG-1 in terms of the inflated price tag, the almost complete lack of aftermarket support, and failing by comparison to more modern, semi-auto rifles that will surpass its performance at a mere fraction of the cost.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.
The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I had one and am glad I dont anymore. It is way too heavy to hunt with and accuracy wise cannot compete with a GAP built AR10. The psg1 will also put the flute marks on your brass which some people do not have an issue with, but I did. Lastly for me the roller locking weapons would get so dirty it would take an entire roll of paper towels to clean them.
I admit it is one of the most attractive rifles I have ever seen, but that is where it stops. Same way with the msg90.
If you want a sweet .308 the new FN SSR might be the way to go. The price is still up there but much less than a psg1.
I had one and am glad I dont anymore. It is way too heavy to hunt with and accuracy wise cannot compete with a GAP built AR10. The psg1 will also put the flute marks on your brass which some people do not have an issue with, but I did. Lastly for me the roller locking weapons would get so dirty it would take an entire roll of paper towels to clean them.
I admit it is one of the most attractive rifles I have ever seen, but that is where it stops. Same way with the msg90.
If you want a sweet .308 the new FN SSR might be the way to go. The price is still up there but much less than a psg1.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And with the PSG-1 you where stuck with the fixed 6x scope built in unless your unit armorers could cut it off and affix a chuck of rail to the top for optics.
I'll never figure out why Hk never updated the system into a 1913 rail (receiver and handguards).
</div></div>
The "PSG-1 A1" variant ditched the 6x Hensoldt in favor of the 3-12x50 S&B PMII.
As for the 1913-compatible rail...who knows?!? That would have, in my opinion, been the way to go so as to permit the end user/unit to configure the rifle with the optic (or optics) best suited to their particular AO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.</div></div>
There was no "special lining" or anything "magical" about the barrel...it was/is a cold hammer forged, polygonal rifled, free-floating barrel (and the service life was actually reported at 15k rounds...I can't confirm or deny that they actually last that long. The last one I shot had 6500rnd on it though and was still sub-MOA.).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And with the PSG-1 you where stuck with the fixed 6x scope built in unless your unit armorers could cut it off and affix a chuck of rail to the top for optics.
I'll never figure out why Hk never updated the system into a 1913 rail (receiver and handguards).
</div></div>
The "PSG-1 A1" variant ditched the 6x Hensoldt in favor of the 3-12x50 S&B PMII.
As for the 1913-compatible rail...who knows?!? That would have, in my opinion, been the way to go so as to permit the end user/unit to configure the rifle with the optic (or optics) best suited to their particular AO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.</div></div>
There was no "special lining" or anything "magical" about the barrel...it was/is a cold hammer forged, polygonal rifled, free-floating barrel (and the service life was actually reported at 15k rounds...I can't confirm or deny that they actually last that long. The last one I shot had 6500rnd on it though and was still sub-MOA.).
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Hk uses a very high grade steel (the top of the three Milspec type barrel steels) for their CHF barrels. Outstanding life from them. Poly rifling also wears slower than typical rifling cuts and often offers velocity gains, and is reportedly more accurate due to less deformation of the bullet.
Hk uses a very high grade steel (the top of the three Milspec type barrel steels) for their CHF barrels. Outstanding life from them. Poly rifling also wears slower than typical rifling cuts and often offers velocity gains, and is reportedly more accurate due to less deformation of the bullet.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Overrated; pretty much like everything HK makes.
Overrated; pretty much like everything HK makes.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I was kinda feeling the same way Turk. Although I love their pistols, Im just not going to spend that much on a gun that is going to be used. I was thinking I might be able to piece a clone together for around $3-4K. Screw that, I just molested one at the gunshow. I guess it was 26", no indepth details, just said real HK PSG1 for I think it was $12k. Very heavy too, but I guess I was not thinking with the right head. I do tend to drool over guns. Its the hardest decision for me to make when I save up money for a new gun, I save up for one in particular then cant make up my mind when I have the cash. Thanks for the info ORD. It would be a really nice gun to have, but I couldnt bring myself to shoot it at 15k big ones. Ill just stick to my Armalite. Now, if I could only get a CHF barrel for it, I would be set.
I was kinda feeling the same way Turk. Although I love their pistols, Im just not going to spend that much on a gun that is going to be used. I was thinking I might be able to piece a clone together for around $3-4K. Screw that, I just molested one at the gunshow. I guess it was 26", no indepth details, just said real HK PSG1 for I think it was $12k. Very heavy too, but I guess I was not thinking with the right head. I do tend to drool over guns. Its the hardest decision for me to make when I save up money for a new gun, I save up for one in particular then cant make up my mind when I have the cash. Thanks for the info ORD. It would be a really nice gun to have, but I couldnt bring myself to shoot it at 15k big ones. Ill just stick to my Armalite. Now, if I could only get a CHF barrel for it, I would be set.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
If I'm not mistaken there are still a couple barrel makers that use poly rifling. Good luck finding a 417 barrel as well.
If I'm not mistaken there are still a couple barrel makers that use poly rifling. Good luck finding a 417 barrel as well.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know if it would be possible to put an HK 417 barrel on an AR10?
</div></div>
That would be a "NO" for numerous reasons.
That said, you don't NEED a CHF barrel to get good barrel life, but they certainly exceed the life expectancy of other forms of barrels on the market. As for polygonal rifling...you can get poly rifling, but not CHF, from several mfgs that can be fitted to the AR-10 platform rifles.
As for AR-10 pattern CHF barrels...I do not know of any aftermarket sources for CHF barrels, but companies like LRWC use CHF barrels on their rifles. The LWRC REPR (.308) has one for example.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know if it would be possible to put an HK 417 barrel on an AR10?
</div></div>
That would be a "NO" for numerous reasons.
That said, you don't NEED a CHF barrel to get good barrel life, but they certainly exceed the life expectancy of other forms of barrels on the market. As for polygonal rifling...you can get poly rifling, but not CHF, from several mfgs that can be fitted to the AR-10 platform rifles.
As for AR-10 pattern CHF barrels...I do not know of any aftermarket sources for CHF barrels, but companies like LRWC use CHF barrels on their rifles. The LWRC REPR (.308) has one for example.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I'd recommend going with an SR9T if you want the HK experience. The SR9Ts are very accurate, but they suffer from some design challenges (same as PSG1) that make them difficult to shoot well. As such, they have a mixed (and undeserved) reputation regarding accuracy. I'll argue that the SR9Ts are inherently extremely accurate once you fix a few things. When I say accurate, I mean one small hole at 100Y and the ability to hold MOA or less to 600Y.
1) Scope mounting options suck. Anything larger than an S&B 3-12 or USO ST-10 isn't going to fit due to the charging handle location on the front. The only decent mounting option is to either weld tabs or to use the HK claw mount (not other manufacturers)--and yes it will leave marks.
2) Ergonomics of length of pull suck if you are over 6' tall.
3) The only decent bipod mounting option is the KAC rail--none of the others manufacturers' models are as good because they pinch the action and barrel. Finding an HK KAC rail is really tough. The KAC rail is so important, that I'd recommend finding one of them before even looking for a rifle.
As an aside, HKs beat the crap out of your brass and are absolutely filthy to shoot.
I'd recommend going with an SR9T if you want the HK experience. The SR9Ts are very accurate, but they suffer from some design challenges (same as PSG1) that make them difficult to shoot well. As such, they have a mixed (and undeserved) reputation regarding accuracy. I'll argue that the SR9Ts are inherently extremely accurate once you fix a few things. When I say accurate, I mean one small hole at 100Y and the ability to hold MOA or less to 600Y.
1) Scope mounting options suck. Anything larger than an S&B 3-12 or USO ST-10 isn't going to fit due to the charging handle location on the front. The only decent mounting option is to either weld tabs or to use the HK claw mount (not other manufacturers)--and yes it will leave marks.
2) Ergonomics of length of pull suck if you are over 6' tall.
3) The only decent bipod mounting option is the KAC rail--none of the others manufacturers' models are as good because they pinch the action and barrel. Finding an HK KAC rail is really tough. The KAC rail is so important, that I'd recommend finding one of them before even looking for a rifle.
As an aside, HKs beat the crap out of your brass and are absolutely filthy to shoot.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.</div></div>
There was no "special lining" or anything "magical" about the barrel...it was/is a cold hammer forged, polygonal rifled, free-floating barrel (and the service life was actually reported at 15k rounds...I can't confirm or deny that they actually last that long. The last one I shot had 6500rnd on it though and was still sub-MOA.). </div></div>
I have a copy of the 1996 edition of "Sentinel" magazine which was published by H & K. There is an article on the PSG1 by Brian Sullivan - HK Commercial Sales. On page 20 he writes,
"The barrel on the PSG1 is a heavy, free floating, cold hammer forged barrel with no taper and special polygonal rifling. The barrel is 24 inches long and the interior of the bore itself is entirely chrome plated..."
There is a whole lot more info as well. I could scan it and send it to you if you would like to brush up on your HK history.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dieselten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PSG1 also had a special lined barrel that was advertised to have a Match Grade accuracy life over 10,000 rounds (maybe more, can't remember), which was almost unheard of back in the early 1990's.</div></div>
There was no "special lining" or anything "magical" about the barrel...it was/is a cold hammer forged, polygonal rifled, free-floating barrel (and the service life was actually reported at 15k rounds...I can't confirm or deny that they actually last that long. The last one I shot had 6500rnd on it though and was still sub-MOA.). </div></div>
I have a copy of the 1996 edition of "Sentinel" magazine which was published by H & K. There is an article on the PSG1 by Brian Sullivan - HK Commercial Sales. On page 20 he writes,
"The barrel on the PSG1 is a heavy, free floating, cold hammer forged barrel with no taper and special polygonal rifling. The barrel is 24 inches long and the interior of the bore itself is entirely chrome plated..."
There is a whole lot more info as well. I could scan it and send it to you if you would like to brush up on your HK history.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I would second most of that advice. Unless money is no object, have at it. But is no longer the end all be all.
Some random thoughts.
In particular - if you get one:
-the factory optics will have to be upgraded. Can't see anyone being satisfied with that era's technology
-the trigger itself, while adequate, is not uber fantastic. Get used to it.
-the tripod is somewhat lacking and IMO the weapon would have to be modified to accept a modern, attached style of bipod ala something like the AI system
I would second most of that advice. Unless money is no object, have at it. But is no longer the end all be all.
Some random thoughts.
In particular - if you get one:
-the factory optics will have to be upgraded. Can't see anyone being satisfied with that era's technology
-the trigger itself, while adequate, is not uber fantastic. Get used to it.
-the tripod is somewhat lacking and IMO the weapon would have to be modified to accept a modern, attached style of bipod ala something like the AI system
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In particular - if you get one:
-the factory optics will have to be upgraded. Can't see anyone being satisfied with that era's technology </div></div>
No disagreement there...nearly everyone I know who has shot or otherwise fielded a PSG-1 has complained about the optics on the original rifles. It was not until the A1 was intro'd that the PSG-1 finally got a scope worthy of its reputation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-the trigger itself, while adequate, is not uber fantastic. Get used to it. </div></div>
I disagree with this comment entirely. While the stock HK91/G3 trigger is poor, even by battle rifle standards, every MSG90 and PSG-1 I have fired has had an excellent, crisp/clean, 3-3.5lb pull. Now, it isn't bolt gun smooth/crisp/etc., but for a match-grade semi-auto trigger...it is damn good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-the tripod is somewhat lacking and IMO the weapon would have to be modified to accept a modern, attached style of bipod ala something like the AI system </div></div>
While I agree that the tripod isn't the most ideal setup...especially if you aren't shooting in a somewhat static position...equipping any PSG-1 rifle with an alternate bipod is easy thanks to the t-rail on the forearm. My MSG90 clone (same forearm) is equipped with a bipod adapter and a Harris BRM-S unit. I have also shot other PSG-1 rifles that had the same "upgrade" to a different bipod setup..Now, with the invention of the Atlas, Accu-Shot and others offer t-rail to picatinny rail adapters that will allow quick and easy mounting of the Atlas bipods.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note, whats IIRC mean, I see it in a lot of posts. </div></div>
IIRC = If I Remember/Recall Correctly
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In particular - if you get one:
-the factory optics will have to be upgraded. Can't see anyone being satisfied with that era's technology </div></div>
No disagreement there...nearly everyone I know who has shot or otherwise fielded a PSG-1 has complained about the optics on the original rifles. It was not until the A1 was intro'd that the PSG-1 finally got a scope worthy of its reputation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-the trigger itself, while adequate, is not uber fantastic. Get used to it. </div></div>
I disagree with this comment entirely. While the stock HK91/G3 trigger is poor, even by battle rifle standards, every MSG90 and PSG-1 I have fired has had an excellent, crisp/clean, 3-3.5lb pull. Now, it isn't bolt gun smooth/crisp/etc., but for a match-grade semi-auto trigger...it is damn good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-the tripod is somewhat lacking and IMO the weapon would have to be modified to accept a modern, attached style of bipod ala something like the AI system </div></div>
While I agree that the tripod isn't the most ideal setup...especially if you aren't shooting in a somewhat static position...equipping any PSG-1 rifle with an alternate bipod is easy thanks to the t-rail on the forearm. My MSG90 clone (same forearm) is equipped with a bipod adapter and a Harris BRM-S unit. I have also shot other PSG-1 rifles that had the same "upgrade" to a different bipod setup..Now, with the invention of the Atlas, Accu-Shot and others offer t-rail to picatinny rail adapters that will allow quick and easy mounting of the Atlas bipods.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On a side note, whats IIRC mean, I see it in a lot of posts. </div></div>
IIRC = If I Remember/Recall Correctly
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Overrated; pretty much like everything HK makes. </div></div>
you said it brother
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Overrated; pretty much like everything HK makes. </div></div>
you said it brother
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
This is where I get most of my Sniper practice
You'll note it's modeled after a PSG-1. Coincidence? I think not.
This is where I get most of my Sniper practice
You'll note it's modeled after a PSG-1. Coincidence? I think not.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Don't mean to discredit that article but the barrel is not chrome lined! Just like the Steyr's many people think they are.
Don't mean to discredit that article but the barrel is not chrome lined! Just like the Steyr's many people think they are.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't mean to discredit that article but the barrel is not chrome lined! Just like the Steyr's many people think they are. </div></div>
That article is full of small errors/"misstatements" like that, which is sad based on the fact it is written by a then HK employee. One of the reasons why commercial sales folks ought not to dabble in the affairs of the Mil/LEO side of the business.
For example...the barrels are NOT 24" either as erroneously quoted in the article. They are 25.6" (650mm) to be exact.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't mean to discredit that article but the barrel is not chrome lined! Just like the Steyr's many people think they are. </div></div>
That article is full of small errors/"misstatements" like that, which is sad based on the fact it is written by a then HK employee. One of the reasons why commercial sales folks ought not to dabble in the affairs of the Mil/LEO side of the business.
For example...the barrels are NOT 24" either as erroneously quoted in the article. They are 25.6" (650mm) to be exact.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Ord:
I will have to qualify that statement.
Yes, of course, the PSG trigger is excellent with reference to a semi-auto platform. Certainly not horrible like, say, an M4.
I would prefer something else, like the Stoner trigger. And true, one shouldn't expect a bolt gun trigger.
Ord:
I will have to qualify that statement.
Yes, of course, the PSG trigger is excellent with reference to a semi-auto platform. Certainly not horrible like, say, an M4.
I would prefer something else, like the Stoner trigger. And true, one shouldn't expect a bolt gun trigger.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I have a PSG-1 and I can give you some thoughts on it from an average person's POV.
It's worth the money if you want a gun that enjoys mystique as well as performs as advertised. It's a wonderful rifle to shoot prone or from a bench, but it's not something you're going to want to hump through the woods. If I had to do it over again, I would still buy it.
I also have an MSG90A1 that Urbach built up from a PSG-1. If you were going to build one or the other, I would try to build out an MSG90. You can use a sear in the lower that you can't use in a PSG-1 lower.
The engineering and quality of a real PSG-1 can't be understated. However, value/use wise, as said by Kevin, there's better options.
Here's a picture of them with a 550 sniper and a KAC SR-25 Mk11Mod0 build that I did.
I have a PSG-1 and I can give you some thoughts on it from an average person's POV.
It's worth the money if you want a gun that enjoys mystique as well as performs as advertised. It's a wonderful rifle to shoot prone or from a bench, but it's not something you're going to want to hump through the woods. If I had to do it over again, I would still buy it.
I also have an MSG90A1 that Urbach built up from a PSG-1. If you were going to build one or the other, I would try to build out an MSG90. You can use a sear in the lower that you can't use in a PSG-1 lower.
The engineering and quality of a real PSG-1 can't be understated. However, value/use wise, as said by Kevin, there's better options.
Here's a picture of them with a 550 sniper and a KAC SR-25 Mk11Mod0 build that I did.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
I would just look for an SR9T and add the PSG-1 lower and stock. That will get you close enough without dropping $13,000 for a rifle.
Shit. You can almost buy a real MP5 machine gun for that much.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index...query=retrieval
I would just look for an SR9T and add the PSG-1 lower and stock. That will get you close enough without dropping $13,000 for a rifle.
Shit. You can almost buy a real MP5 machine gun for that much.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index...query=retrieval
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just look for an SR9T and add the PSG-1 lower and stock. That will get you close enough without dropping $13,000 for a rifle. </div></div>
Actually, with an SR9T, you already have the complete PSG-1 trigger pack and grip ("lower" as you called it). All you would need to do is swap the MSG-90 stock out for a PSG-1 stock (which, if you sell the MSG-90 to buy a PSG-1 stock...you will still be out another $400-500 + the cost of the rifle itself). So with all that in mind...you are still looking at approx. a $4k investment or so and you aren't getting nearly the bang for the buck you can get from a number of off-the-rack AR-10 type rifles or a full custom jobs that can be had for considerably less money.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just look for an SR9T and add the PSG-1 lower and stock. That will get you close enough without dropping $13,000 for a rifle. </div></div>
Actually, with an SR9T, you already have the complete PSG-1 trigger pack and grip ("lower" as you called it). All you would need to do is swap the MSG-90 stock out for a PSG-1 stock (which, if you sell the MSG-90 to buy a PSG-1 stock...you will still be out another $400-500 + the cost of the rifle itself). So with all that in mind...you are still looking at approx. a $4k investment or so and you aren't getting nearly the bang for the buck you can get from a number of off-the-rack AR-10 type rifles or a full custom jobs that can be had for considerably less money.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
ORD,
No doubt there, however some people just want an HK. If I wanted at .308 semi auto sniper rifle I would never look towards HK, mostly because of cost. Not to mention their complete lack of aftermarket parts
ORD,
No doubt there, however some people just want an HK. If I wanted at .308 semi auto sniper rifle I would never look towards HK, mostly because of cost. Not to mention their complete lack of aftermarket parts
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
MichaelVain very nice set as for the ? ifi had the money i would go the msg90 way myself i have always loved the look of hk weapons and have owend clones i dont have the cash for the real big boy toy's but how could you go wrong with a psg1 if you had the cash for it i dont think you could
MichaelVain very nice set as for the ? ifi had the money i would go the msg90 way myself i have always loved the look of hk weapons and have owend clones i dont have the cash for the real big boy toy's but how could you go wrong with a psg1 if you had the cash for it i dont think you could
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MichaelVain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a PSG-1 and I can give you some thoughts on it from an average person's POV.
It's worth the money if you want a gun that enjoys mystique as well as performs as advertised. It's a wonderful rifle to shoot prone or from a bench, but it's not something you're going to want to hump through the woods. If I had to do it over again, I would still buy it.
I also have an MSG90A1 that Urbach built up from a PSG-1. If you were going to build one or the other, I would try to build out an MSG90. You can use a sear in the lower that you can't use in a PSG-1 lower.
The engineering and quality of a real PSG-1 can't be understated. However, value/use wise, as said by Kevin, there's better options.
Here's a picture of them with a 550 sniper and a KAC SR-25 Mk11Mod0 build that I did.
</div></div>If that's really your collection and not a picture you stole (no offense, just going off the post count- I have seen the pic on HKForum) than hats off to you. That is a serious semi auto sniper collection sir.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MichaelVain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a PSG-1 and I can give you some thoughts on it from an average person's POV.
It's worth the money if you want a gun that enjoys mystique as well as performs as advertised. It's a wonderful rifle to shoot prone or from a bench, but it's not something you're going to want to hump through the woods. If I had to do it over again, I would still buy it.
I also have an MSG90A1 that Urbach built up from a PSG-1. If you were going to build one or the other, I would try to build out an MSG90. You can use a sear in the lower that you can't use in a PSG-1 lower.
The engineering and quality of a real PSG-1 can't be understated. However, value/use wise, as said by Kevin, there's better options.
Here's a picture of them with a 550 sniper and a KAC SR-25 Mk11Mod0 build that I did.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (no offense, just going off the post count- I have seen the pic on HKForum) than hats off to you. </div></div>
Cmon, you should know better. Post count? Is post count that relevant?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (no offense, just going off the post count- I have seen the pic on HKForum) than hats off to you. </div></div>
Cmon, you should know better. Post count? Is post count that relevant?
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
Nowadays, there are significantly less expensive options however, I do believe that the true H&K would be a heck of an investment. Probably do better than the stock market.
Nowadays, there are significantly less expensive options however, I do believe that the true H&K would be a heck of an investment. Probably do better than the stock market.
Re: Is the PSG1 worth the effort to find or clone?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most Tier1 units had PSG-1's in the early '90s
However Hk was really proud of them and rebarreling was a literal fortune. IIRC it was around $8000 Hk wanted to rebarrel a gun, I think this was including the shipping to and fro HkO.
</div></div>
Yup, that's pretty much how it went. Was good 20 years ago, not so much now. The quality that the guys in Oberndorf put into the PSG-1 line was bordering on insane. Even back then people thought they were hugely overpriced but the reality is to HK they were built like Tier One soldiers are selected - most components that showed up were culled and only the very best made it to production. I spent some time at the factory in 1992 and watched an engineer sit with a bucket of fresh barrels and what looked like a tuning fork to test the uniformity of the metallurgy. They had a really cool range nearby for testing and it was surprising what their accuracy standard was for finalizing a single PSG-1.
As Kevin said, they were the type of rifle that required you to send the whole thing back to rebarrel or replace parts (not unlike the MP5SD back then). It was very expensive to acquire and equally expensive to maintain over the long haul.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most Tier1 units had PSG-1's in the early '90s
However Hk was really proud of them and rebarreling was a literal fortune. IIRC it was around $8000 Hk wanted to rebarrel a gun, I think this was including the shipping to and fro HkO.
</div></div>
Yup, that's pretty much how it went. Was good 20 years ago, not so much now. The quality that the guys in Oberndorf put into the PSG-1 line was bordering on insane. Even back then people thought they were hugely overpriced but the reality is to HK they were built like Tier One soldiers are selected - most components that showed up were culled and only the very best made it to production. I spent some time at the factory in 1992 and watched an engineer sit with a bucket of fresh barrels and what looked like a tuning fork to test the uniformity of the metallurgy. They had a really cool range nearby for testing and it was surprising what their accuracy standard was for finalizing a single PSG-1.
As Kevin said, they were the type of rifle that required you to send the whole thing back to rebarrel or replace parts (not unlike the MP5SD back then). It was very expensive to acquire and equally expensive to maintain over the long haul.
