Is there a gray area between a SBR & a Pistol or is the definition cut & dried?

[CZ 527]

I am considering a suppressed 338 ARC as a deer hunting firearm. Sticky point per state game laws is the ammo in a shoulder held firearm is required to use ammo that produces 1000 ft pounds at the muzzle. Whereas a hand gun is only required to use ammo that produces 500 ft pounds at the muzzle. This may suggest that I may not use subsonic ammo from a shoulder held 338 ARC though the same subsonic ammo is perfectly acceptable from a hand gun.

What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

 

[Namekagon]

It’s pretty clearly divided for now. Things may change, but I’d bet not under Trump. Just build the gun as a braced pistol. I don’t see how state game officials could claim it’s a rifle if the ATF says it’s a pistol.

 

[Namekagon]

Just to add,

To build the gun as a pistol, it has to start life as one. You can’t convert a receiver that is a rifle into a pistol, that makes a SBR and has to be registered.

Easiest way to do this is to go to the local gun shop and buy the registered part, (such as the AR lower) but tell them it’s going to be built as a pistol and make sure they record the purchase as a pistol ( there might be an “other weapon” classification that works also, I don’t remember exactly. Just make sure it’s not a rifle purchase). The gun shop should know what to do. I think you can also do this with a new bolt action as well.

 

[hlee]

If the receiver transfers as a receiver, it can be built into a pistol. If it transfers as a rifle, it is always a rifle.

That said, I “think” a ruling regarding the TC Encore blew a pretty big hole in the “once a rifle, always a rifle” as applied to ARs by the ATF…

I’m not a lol-yer, but there might be some legal wiggle room to snare a braced pistol, given the wording of “shoulder fired” vs “hand held…”

My personal opinion is that if you are in an area where you can SBR it, and crossing state lines isn’t a worry, just SBR it and be done.

 

[srt-4_uk]

My personal opinion is that if you are in an area where you can SBR it, and crossing state lines isn’t a worry, just SBR it and be done.

The problem in OPs case is an SBR is a Short Barrel Rifle and cannot use the same rounds as a pistol to hunt with

 

[HD1911]

Pistol it and be done with it. Don’t overthink it.

 

[hlee]

The problem in OPs case is an SBR is a Short Barrel Rifle and cannot use the same rounds as a pistol to hunt with

Maybe the OP’s area is blessed with GWs with more appreciation of nuance than those around here. I’d expect them to see either a stock or a brace and say “shoulder fired.”

“But, but, you see, it’s not a ‘rifle’ because I didn’t register it with the ATF. I mean, I didn’t need to register it because the stock is a brace. I mean the brace isn’t a stock.”

“Get in the car, loser. We’re doin’ law stuff.”

They say “you can beat the charge, but not the ride.”

No, I get it. Given the way laws are crafted, I wouldn’t put a brace on an AR intended to not fit a “shoulder fired” designation. And, bullets approximating the weight of pistol bullets, fired at pistol velocities, should be expected to act like pistol bullets. Don’t expect “rifle performance” just because you held the gun to your shoulder.

But, the best answer is to contact your dept of wildlife and ask them. Then, ask the local GW about his interpretation. If you do have a run in, it will be the GW that you are dealing with.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Simple, don't put a brace on the pistol. It's a pistol without being a "shoulder fired weapon."

Nothing would stop you from accidently bumping your shoulder while you fire it...

 

[Bakwa]

As a former game warden, and as one who has encountered many games wardens in different states, GW's seem to know that fed laws regarding firearms is not something they want to deal with. I even had the jurisdiction as a federally deputized GW to make a stink, but we were told not to touch stuff that ATF would otherwise deal with. Sounded good to me.
State laws may be different if they're further defined when compared to fed law, but I wouldn't worry as much if we're talking about fed definitions.
That's my experience from the other side of the counter anyways.

 

[Wannashootit]

What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

Depends on how the receiver was registered at time of distribution into commerce.
You can't take an AR that was sold at retail as a rifle, and turn it into a pistol. Ditto for bolt guns- same rules apply.

"Once a rifle, always a rifle". It cannot be changed.

 

[tinker]

Just to add,

To build the gun as a pistol, it has to start life as one. You can’t convert a receiver that is a rifle into a pistol, that makes a SBR and has to be registered.

Easiest way to do this is to go to the local gun shop and buy the registered part, (such as the AR lower) but tell them it’s going to be built as a pistol and make sure they record the purchase as a pistol ( there might be an “other weapon” classification that works also, I don’t remember exactly. Just make sure it’s not a rifle purchase). The gun shop should know what to do. I think you can also do this with a new bolt action as well.

"make sure they record the purchase as a pistol"

FYI that is illegal. A dealer can't do that. That would be manufacturing without a license and can land them in a LOT of hot water. It's also tax evasion. If the dealer gets an inspection and wants to make the dealers life miserable ....it won't be good.

 

[ClangClang]

Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

 

[tinker]

Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

View attachment 8567087

Exactly.

Side note, NJ (which is ride down the road from us) makes dealers transfer them as rifles. So people in NJ can buy a lower but have to build it into a rifle. Then NJ folks figured out that "other firearms" aren't banned like AR evil features and AR pistols, but since they can only buy "rifles" as stripped lowers they can't build themselves an "other" they have to have a Mfg log it in and change it to an other and engrave it. Some stuff is stupid but things like that create a lot of the confusion.

Another thing that makes ithe fuddlore worse is a lot of dealers have no odea what they are doing. Some fudd will just an ffl out of his basement and go do shows. I have seen a bunch of table top dealers here in PA at gun shows sell stripped lowers to NJ residents and record them as rifles on the 4473

More than once I have done a show and refused to sell a stripped lower to a nj resident and then had them actually get pissed and tell me I was wring because dealer over there (whatever direction they point to) just sold them one and proceeded to hold it up in front of me to prove how wrong I was.

 

[carbonbased]

It’s time to unearth this chestnut again.



I can’t tell you if every tiny bit of it is correct, but it sure seems like it. Edit: at least at the time the vid was made.

That channel has some other vids talking about future developments (some of which, I believe, were struck down).

 

[cas6969]

I don’t see how state game officials could claim it’s a rifle if the ATF says it’s a pistol.

Simple. By writing the ticket.
No longer his problem. Now your problem.

 

[Wannashootit]

Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

View attachment 8567087

True- and this is what the OP should do, assuming he wants to build it himself.

What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

It's also important he understand the distinction in how the receiver was recorded initially if purchasing an assembled rifle or pistol, whether new or used- and that (for example) he can't buy a used AR rifle that he got a smokin' deal on- and put a brace and 10" barrel on it.

 

[CZ 527]

Thanks for the input all. Checked with our State game & fish on this & the individual that responded was clear that if the firearm is to be in any way used as shoulder fired then rifle ft lb requirements apply. Suppose The 458 socom may be the best way around meeting the rifle ft lb requirement for my subsonic itch.

Or perhaps I'll just continue with the Supersonic 6mm ARC that has been serving me very well. In all likelihood I could use anything here that has been touched on & never get checked by a game warden, Though why push it.

 

[Kayakfish1]

How are they going to prove the muzzle energy of the rounds you’re using to harvest a deer?
I have had a bunch of interactions with game wardens, and I know that I’ve had some that were looking to write me a ticket for anything they could find but the majority of them have been very easy to get along with, just checking license/tags and sending me in my way.
I feel like you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill on this subject, fwiw you could always carry a factory supersonic box full of whatever subsonic pill you’re shooting and if they check you just say “yes sir here’s my ammo”……..

 

[mattman215]

In az a pistol is a pistol as defined by the atf, many hunters take javelina with AR pistols during handgun season. I personally still use the old 1911.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Just to add,

To build the gun as a pistol, it has to start life as one. You can’t convert a receiver that is a rifle into a pistol, that makes a SBR and has to be registered.

Easiest way to do this is to go to the local gun shop and buy the registered part, (such as the AR lower) but tell them it’s going to be built as a pistol and make sure they record the purchase as a pistol ( there might be an “other weapon” classification that works also, I don’t remember exactly. Just make sure it’s not a rifle purchase). The gun shop should know what to do. I think you can also do this with a new bolt action as well.

This hasn't been true since US v. Thompson Center Arms CO (1992). Title 1 firearms are not machineguns, they have defining characteristics that once changed makes them a different class of Title 1 weapon (shoulder stocks for example). A rifle must have a shoulder stock, otherwise it is not a rifle. A pistol can be converted into a rifle and back, a rifle can be converted into a pistol and back. They just can't be NFA unless registered as such. Further, not all Title 2 weapons are considered Title 2 forever; an SBR, for example, can be removed from the NFA registry and returned to Title 1.

 

[tinker]

This hasn't been true since US v. Thompson Center Arms CO (1992). Title 1 firearms are not machineguns, they have defining characteristics that once changed makes them a different class of Title 1 weapon (shoulder stocks for example). A rifle must have a shoulder stock, otherwise it is not a rifle. A pistol can be converted into a rifle and back, a rifle can be converted into a pistol and back. They just can't be NFA unless registered as such. Further, not all Title 2 weapons are considered Title 2 forever; an SBR, for example, can be removed from the NFA registry and returned to Title 1.

No a rifle can NOT be made into a pistol. A rifle made into a pistol configuration is an SBR.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

No a rifle can NOT be made into a pistol. A rifle made into a pistol configuration is an SBR.

Yes, the ATF holds that position but there has never been a prosecution for such. If a pistol is legally turned into a rifle, how can it then be legally turned into a pistol again if it isn't legal to turn a rifle into a pistol? Lots of SBR prosecutions over the years, none of them are rifle to pistol violations. It was further proved out in the attempted bump stock ban.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm

United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Co. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is sort of like debating 922r.

 

[dzeke]

Check your state regulations. Everything already discussed aside, Colorado for example says no "stocks or attachments" on handguns in the big game regs. An AR pistol is fine provided it's a bare buffer tube. At least that's how I interpret it.

 

[tinker]

Yes, the ATF holds that position but there has never been a prosecution for such. If a pistol is legally turned into a rifle, how can it then be legally turned into a pistol again if it isn't legal to turn a rifle into a pistol? Lots of SBR prosecutions over the years, none of them are rifle to pistol violations. It was further proved out in the attempted bump stock ban.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm

United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Co. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is sort of like debating 922r.

It's actually really simple. The issue you are having with it is the same issue a lot of folks have so don't feel bad.

An SBR is a rifle with a barrel less than 16", or ANYTHING MADE FROM A RIFLE with a barrel less than 16".

You can take a pistol and go back and forth. But you sadly can not make a rifle into a pistol without it being an SBR. I don't make the rules, Just forced to play by them.


There are plenty of rules people try to overcomplicate. The biggest one is long guns vs everything else. My shop is on the line next to NJ so we get NJ customers a lot. Most often they are aware they can't buy pistols and take them home, but also almost all don't realize they can't buy things like a shockwave 12ga or an AR receiver. The receivers they try to argue with us at least once a week there will be a guy claiming we don't know what we are doing and how he bought one at a gunshow in PA..... Almost every dang week.

I try to explain to them like this... "Either its a long gun or it ain't and out of state residents can only buy long guns"

They stare at me like a deer and headlights and say......"but it's not a pistol"

Same thing with a pistol made from an rifle being an SBR.

If there has NEVER been a prosecution for such, it is either because the felon simply was not caught or they had much bigger charges to worry about.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

It's actually really simple. The issue you are having with it is the same issue a lot of folks have so don't feel bad.

An SBR is a rifle with a barrel less than 16", or ANYTHING MADE FROM A RIFLE with a barrel less than 16".

You can take a pistol and go back and forth. But you sadly can not make a rifle into a pistol without it being an SBR. I don't make the rules, Just forced to play by them.


There are plenty of rules people try to overcomplicate. The biggest one is long guns vs everything else. My shop is on the line next to NJ so we get NJ customers a lot. Most often they are aware they can't buy pistols and take them home, but also almost all don't realize they can't buy things like a shockwave 12ga or an AR receiver. The receivers they try to argue with us at least once a week there will be a guy claiming we don't know what we are doing and how he bought one at a gunshow in PA..... Almost every dang week.

I try to explain to them like this... "Either its a long gun or it ain't and out of state residents can only buy long guns"

They stare at me like a deer and headlights and say......"but it's not a pistol"

Same thing with a pistol made from an rifle being an SBR.

If there has NEVER been a prosecution for such, it is either because the felon simply was not caught or they had much bigger charges to worry about.

No, gun store guy, it's because the ATF lost trying to enforce it the first time and would rather let internet g-men carry the torch instead of taking yet another loss. It's like the 94 AWB and 922r, lots of internet chatter, not one single prosecution.

Here's a few examples, tell me where they would fall:

1: An individual buys an AR-15 lower with buffer tube but no stock, face to face, in state from another individual. They assemble a 10.5" pistol with arm brace. Illegal SBR or pistol?

2: An individual buys a Daniel Defense 16" M4 carbine. Some time later sells the upper to his bro, and the lower without the stock to an out of state buyer through an FFL. The FFL transfers the lower as a receiver to the new owner. The new owner puts on a brace and 10.5" barrel. Illegal SBR or pistol?

3: An individual buys a Remington XP100, converts it into a rifle, then sells it to a out of state buyer through an FFL. The new owner converts it back into a pistol. Illegal SBR or pistol?

How would anyone, anywhere, know if an AR-15 started as a rifle and then got a pistol brace and short barrel? "Once a rifle, always a rifle" is plainly untrue.

Who would then prosecute it? Game wardens next to your tree stand? Feebs? Gun store bros? The ATF is on record, at the link I provided, stating some legally configured rifles can be legally converted into legally configured pistols. You think they're going to frog walk someone into court on something so flimsy that could potentially jeopardize the NFA?

This has 2002 arfcom vibes.

 

[tinker]

No, gun store guy, it's because the ATF lost trying to enforce it the first time and would rather let internet g-men carry the torch instead of taking yet another loss. It's like the 94 AWB and 922r, lots of internet chatter, not one single prosecution.

Here's a few examples, tell me where they would fall:

1: An individual buys an AR-15 lower with buffer tube but no stock, face to face, in state from another individual. They assemble a 10.5" pistol with arm brace. Illegal SBR or pistol?

2: An individual buys a Daniel Defense 16" M4 carbine. Some time later sells the upper to his bro, and the lower without the stock to an out of state buyer through an FFL. The FFL transfers the lower as a receiver to the new owner. The new owner puts on a brace and 10.5" barrel. Illegal SBR or pistol?

3: An individual buys a Remington XP100, converts it into a rifle, then sells it to a out of state buyer through an FFL. The new owner converts it back into a pistol. Illegal SBR or pistol?

How would anyone, anywhere, know if an AR-15 started as a rifle and then got a pistol brace and short barrel? "Once a rifle, always a rifle" is plainly untrue.

Who would then prosecute it? Game wardens next to your tree stand? Feebs? Gun store bros? The ATF is on record, at the link I provided, stating some legally configured rifles can be legally converted into legally configured pistols. You think they're going to frog walk someone into court on something so flimsy that could potentially jeopardize the NFA?

This has 2002 arfcom vibes.

Actually the link you posted does not say that all. you might want to read the what that link goes to.

The burden of proof sadly is on the buyer of the receiver if he/she wants to avoid a court case. The Burden of proof is on the prosecution for a conviction. The ATF has never lost a case I know of trying to enforce that law. The case you seem to be referring to is the thompson center case and it does NOT say you can build a pistol from a rifle.

Just because you can't find a case showing someone being prosecuted for 922r violations it does not mean they haven't.
3 seconds of google could help you out. https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-313215.html

Since you are not aware of how FBI trace requests work, the first stop is the manufacturer. After the trace request team checks with the manufacturer, the info is given for the next person in the chain and so on and so on. When the Mfg says it left the factory as a rifle....the defendant is done.

It's not really that complicated. If you want to break the law be my guest. Like I said I just pay the rules. Part of your confusion might be because you are trying to make sense of the ATF regs......

 

[hlee]

Weapons charges are almost always add-on charges to some larger prosecution. The number of AR pistols and SBRs being used in crimes is vanishingly small (NFA items, for example, are RARELY used in a criminal act). And of those, I’d wager the vast majority were used in their factory configuration (ie, an ar pistol bought as a pistol). No one is being prosecuted because no one is really looking.

 

[tinker]

Weapons charges are almost always add-on charges to some larger prosecution. The number of AR pistols and SBRs being used in crimes is vanishingly small (NFA items, for example, are RARELY used in a criminal act). And of those, I’d wager the vast majority were used in their factory configuration (ie, an ar pistol bought as a pistol). No one is being prosecuted because no one is really looking.

It's true how no one is looking or really cares.

I have customer who owns nfa stuff (mostly cans) and brought one of his AR pistols in the shop one day....with a stock on it. I knew it was a pistol because it had a brace before. I slide the stock off and asked him to not bring that in the store like that. He shrugged and said he shoots it all the time at the club like that and no one cares.

He is upper blue collar and likely would never even be questioned about it. I still wouldn't do it because I would rather not be the test case. But from what I have seen in the industry (and being very friendly with all the local depts) is that gun charges are far and few between and usually added to other charges to get the perp to plead to just one lesser charge.

I did have a PD actually have me remove a Barrel from an unregistered SBR (it was an AK variant). Guy for some reason never was charged not really sure what happened. But he was being given the gun back but with the barrel removed. He did catch some other charges though and thought he was getting millions from the town over it. He bragged in the store how he was going to buy every gun in the store when he gets his payday....I asked the PD about it afterwards and they said he wouldn't be getting anything and is lucky to not be behind bars. Never got the rest of the story though.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Actually the link you posted does not say that all. you might want to read the what that link goes to.

The burden of proof sadly is on the buyer of the receiver if he/she wants to avoid a court case. The Burden of proof is on the prosecution for a conviction. The ATF has never lost a case I know of trying to enforce that law. The case you seem to be referring to is the thompson center case and it does NOT say you can build a pistol from a rifle.

Just because you can't find a case showing someone being prosecuted for 922r violations it does not mean they haven't.
3 seconds of google could help you out. https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-313215.html

Since you are not aware of how FBI trace requests work, the first stop is the manufacturer. After the trace request team checks with the manufacturer, the info is given for the next person in the chain and so on and so on. When the Mfg says it left the factory as a rifle....the defendant is done.

It's not really that complicated. If you want to break the law be my guest. Like I said I just pay the rules. Part of your confusion might be because you are trying to make sense of the ATF regs......

You might want to read your link to that 2008 forum post.

The ATF has never lost? Besides US v. Thompson Center? LOL. Stick to the gun counter.

 

[tinker]

You might want to read your link to that 2008 forum post.

The ATF has never lost? Besides US v. Thompson Center? LOL. Stick to the gun counter.

The ATF did not lose. That case was not about someone trying to build a pistol from a rifle. It was the gov't saying a carbine conversion kit equaled an SBR. They lost "that" case.

There is no case of the gov't losing a case prosecuting someone for an unregistered SBR because a pistol was made from a rifle

 

[Cascade Hemi]

There is no case of the gov't losing a case prosecuting someone for an unregistered SBR because a pistol was made from a rifle

Can't lose if there's no case.